1335 Futurists, their BACK!

[12tribes]

It seems to me that it would suit Satan's plan just fine for SDAs to waiver on the identity of those things and to begin to question and finally jettison all the prophecies which are pointing to fulfillments in our past. Once we lose them, people will find it almost impossible to see God's leading in our past history as a denomination.

Very true

[ClubV12]

A snippet of Eugene Prewits logic concerning the 1260, 1290 and 1335.

The full article can be found here:

http://www.bibledoc.org/articles/1260_1290_1335_day_prophecies_and_Revelation_11.doc

Dangerous Alternatives

Among Seventh-day Adventist there have been few prophecies that have received so much speculative attention as the 1290 and the 1335 days prophecies. In this article we noticed that, unless the end of the 1290 day prophecy is an answer to the question “How long till the end?” then the prophecy makes so comment on what happens at that time at all. As no prophecy is of any private interpretation, and as “the end” is the subject of the entire passage, we are bound to place the 1290 and 1260 day prophecies as terminating at the time of “the end.”

Those who would put the 1290 and 1335 in the future do more than they suspect to undermine the Advent movement. What do we know the last 45 years of the 1335, the portion that extends beyond the 1290? Only that it was a special time of waiting and watching following the time of the end.

By our theory, this is a powerful evidence that the Advent movement was approved of God. The time of the end, 1798, was followed by an “understanding” of the prophecies. This understanding led to a time of waiting and watching culminating in 1843.

But what happens if we place the 1290 and 1335 in the future?

1. We place the time of the end in future, for it concludes the 1290

2. We place the unsealing of Daniel in the future, for it happens at the time of the end

3. We make the past Advent movement, based on Daniel, into a falsehood.

4. We remove the specific mention of our movement in the 1335 days.

This is too much to give up for a speculation. Anything is too much to give up for a speculation.

My Comments:

Some 1335 Futurists believe in a "dual fulfillment", thus leaving intact the entire 2,300 prophecy. MOST want to remove the 1335 from the 2,300 and make it future, our time. I don't believe a "dual fulfillment" is possible, which makes null and void MOST of the "1335 Futurists" claims. Just my opinion.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: John317

It seems to me that it would suit Satan's plan just fine for SDAs to waiver on the identity of those things and to begin to question and finally jettison all the prophecies which are pointing to fulfillments in our past. Once we lose them, people will find it almost impossible to see God's leading in our past history as a denomination.

Very true

Yes, very true, to jettison the prophecies which concern our past and by the same token the identity of the first beast of Revelation 13:1-10 otherwise called the king of the north mentioned in Daniel 11:40-45. As we know the 1260 day prophecy points to the first beast of Rev.13, the papal power, receiving a deadly wound at the hand of Atheistic France in 1798 and the 1290 and 1335 day prophecies extend beyond 1798 to the rise of the Advent movement by which this beast power was to be exposed by the clever of truth. Therefore any prophecy in the Bible that brings attention to this beast power is subject to criticism and subtle re-interpretations. Today Catholicism is doing its best to undo all that protestantism (especially adventism) has accomplished by infiltrating our ranks, passing themselves off as staunch adventists and I must say they have done a good job at convincing many that our understanding of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are obsolete and must be re-interpreted.

sky

[Kevin H]

Most of us are not ready to work on Daniel 12. God uses us where we are and what tools we have availble to work with. As God gives us more tools he expects us to use them and will not bless the results if we insist on using only the old tools we have, and ignore the new.

Since the mid 1800's (mmmmm.....) there has been a rediscovery of the ancient world. Robinson's study of Biblical Geography which lead to archaeology and also break throughts in knowlege of the ancient languages. We need to take advantage of them.

Then we need to work on our herminutics, or methods of interpetation. The dispensational herminutics is the idea that God laid everything out and showed it to his prophets what is set in concreat about what will happen no matter what, however they viewed it like 2 mountain ranges, one close and one much further behind with a long valley between, but that they did not see the valley, and just described the mountains as one mountain range and you need to determin which was the close mountain range and which were the ones on the other side of the valley (and don't worry too much because at the end of the valley the church is raptured out.)

The typical Adventist tends to take the above but has the prophet aware of the valley and applys it to the historistic interpatations of the early 1800s.

God used Historisism to lead the church through the dark ages. We do not want to stray too basically stay on this path. However prior to Adventism, Historisism had been more fluid, modifying as they learned more. However we have stopped doing this and have set it in concreate like the dispensationalists do, and while we hold to the historisists applications we tend to view them through dispenationalists principles.

As I understand it and was taught in college, or Herminutic should include 3 correct ways to use the Bible:

1. Exegesis: or what it meant to the original writer and listeners. Due to freedom of choice, the prophecies were given local applications with the chance of completing the work back then. (See "The Role of Israel in Biblical Prophecy" in the SDABC)

2. Analogy: An issue in the ancient world was the cyclic thought, that things that were not fully fulfilled we will come around to again. And the Bible and Historisism builds on these cycles. For an example God lead the Hebrews to the promised land. They sent out spys and the people were afraid to go in, and Joshua and Calab were the 2 people willing to stand up to the people and give the testimony that they could take the land. The people still refused so they went into the wilderness for 40 years. Then returned and this time sent 2 spys due to Joshua and Calab, 2 people who gave the message that we could take the land. This time they went in. So we find the cycles of time of crisis and issues that the world has to deal with. It start out in the life of a man, then cycles to the life of a family, then cycles to a nation and keeps getting bigger and bigger until the final cycle takes in every person in the whole world.

A Catholic priest saw part of this, but not all of it and came up wth the principle of type and antitype, which is on the right track.

**************************

I have to take a break from the above, time to go to work, but to be able to understand Daniel 12 we have to learn how Daniel expected to see the kingdom set up in his day, and how it was reapplied to another 70 weeks of year that would have brought it to the time of Christ and how Christ could have set up the kingdom then if he was accepted. Apperently the 1260, 1290 and 1335 can be found in the cycles of the sanctuary service and if so we need to study them out in that context, and from there see how Daniel applys it to the end of the 70 weeks of years. After we do this we can start to look for analogies from what could have happened to what we are facing (thus realizing that we don't have to focus as much on the time but what could have been fulfilled in that time, for the issues that we will face.) But what too many people do is divorce the time from the 70 weeks of years and how Jesus could have set up the kingdom had he been accepted, and just start to look for the number of days and start spectulating and speculations on their speculating and go off on a tangent.

[Windsor]

We've heard the broken record of skyblue888 and how anyone who believes differently from him/her on the 1290/1335 days should be kicked out of the SDA church. Yet, that particular prophecy does not form part of the 28 fundamental beliefs. It may be past or it may be future. I'm still open to both sides. Perhaps, the statement of Ellen White in regards to messages of time is misinterpreted. After all, won't there be a message given to righteous man (following the close of probation) from the Father where He announces the day and hour of Christ's return?

[ClubV12]

There's no question all the segments of the 2,300 year prophecy are in the past.

The question is: Can you reapply certain segments in a multiple or dual appliction to the future? A few well known Adventists ministers say you can. I remain skeptical that is possible in terms of literal time. I think you can reapply the principles, as "history repeats itself". For instance there WILL be persecution in the future as great and more so than during the 1,260 time frame that is passed. But I don't believe we can apply 1,260 literal days of time on it, certainly not years.

[John317]

... to jettison the prophecies which concern our past and by the same token the identity of the first beast of Revelation 13:1-10 otherwise called the king of the north mentioned in Daniel 11:40-45. As we know the 1260 day prophecy points to the first beast of Rev.13, the papal power, receiving a deadly wound at the hand of Atheistic France in 1798 and the 1290 and 1335 day prophecies extend beyond 1798 to the rise of the Advent movement by which this beast power was to be exposed by the clever of truth. Therefore any prophecy in the Bible that brings attention to this beast power is subject to criticism and subtle re-interpretations. Today Catholicism is doing its best to undo all that protestantism (especially adventism) has accomplished by infiltrating our ranks, passing themselves off as staunch adventists and I must say they have done a good job at convincing many that our understanding of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are obsolete and must be re-interpreted.

This is worth posting again, sky. Very well put! Thanks for that!

There really should be an article on this in the Adventist Review. All our world church needs to be made aware of it.

Quote:

The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. GC 565

This is happening right under our noses while most SDAs sleep and many even deny that it's happening. Sadly, instead, jokes are made about it.

[John317]

A snippet of Eugene Prewits logic concerning the 1260, 1290 and 1335.

The full article can be found here:

http://www.bibledoc.org/articles/1260_1290_1335_day_prophecies_and_Revelation_11.doc

Dangerous Alternatives

Among Seventh-day Adventist there have been few prophecies that have received so much speculative attention as the 1290 and the 1335 days prophecies. In this article we noticed that, unless the end of the 1290 day prophecy is an answer to the question How long till the end? then the prophecy makes so comment on what happens at that time at all. As no prophecy is of any private interpretation, and as the end is the subject of the entire passage, we are bound to place the 1290 and 1260 day prophecies as terminating at the time of the end.

Those who would put the 1290 and 1335 in the future do more than they suspect to undermine the Advent movement. What do we know the last 45 years of the 1335, the portion that extends beyond the 1290? Only that it was a special time of waiting and watching following the time of the end.

By our theory, this is a powerful evidence that the Advent movement was approved of God. The time of the end, 1798, was followed by an understanding of the prophecies. This understanding led to a time of waiting and watching culminating in 1843.

But what happens if we place the 1290 and 1335 in the future?

1. We place the time of the end in future, for it concludes the 1290

2. We place the unsealing of Daniel in the future, for it happens at the time of the end

3. We make the past Advent movement, based on Daniel, into a falsehood.

4. We remove the specific mention of our movement in the 1335 days.

This is too much to give up for a speculation. Anything is too much to give up for a speculation.

If the church largely accepts the 1290 and 1335 days as literal days at some point in the future, that will become the focus and the idea that those days were fulfilled historically in the past will be all but forgotten. It's a shift that seems unimportant, but it would actually be a subtle and exremely important change.

[John317]

.. won't there be a message given to righteous man (following the close of probation) from the Father where He announces the day and hour of Christ's return?

Yes, God the Father proclaims only a short time before the second coming the day and the hour of Christ's return. But that will not be a message preached to the world.

It therefore doesn't contradict Ellen White's statement that there will never again be a message based on time.

Quote:

And as God spoke the day and the hour of Jesus' coming, and delivered the everlasting covenant to His people, He spoke one sentence, and then paused, while the words were rolling through the earth. The Israel of God stood with their eyes fixed upward, listening to the words as they came from the mouth of Jehovah, and rolled through the earth like peals of loudest thunder. It was awfully solemn. And at the end of every sentence the saints shouted, "Glory! Alleluia" Their countenances were lighted up with the glory of God; and they shone with the glory, as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked could not look on them for the glory. And when the never-ending blessing was pronounced on those who had honored God in keeping His Sabbath holy, there was a mighty shout of victory over the beast and over his image. {CET 95, 96}

[doug yowell]

Therefore any prophecy in the Bible that brings attention to this beast power is subject to criticism and subtle re-interpretations. Today Catholicism is doing its best to undo all that protestantism (especially adventism) has accomplished by infiltrating our ranks, passing themselves off as staunch adventists and I must say they have done a good job at convincing many that our understanding of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are obsolete and must be re-interpreted.

Which beast power does this post refer to? The final and most powerful beast referred to in Revelation is the one in Rev. 13. This is not Catholicism, it is apostate Protestantism springing up in the good ol USA. So why the fixation on the power that will never be the force that it used to be? Unless we believe that the beast of Rev. 13 is no longer apostate Protestantism but rather the resurrection of the Roman church disguised as Protestantism. So who is doing the reinterpreting?

[doug yowell]

Most of us are not ready to work on Daniel 12.

And no wonder if what EGW said is true. Is it one in a hundred or one in in 20? How then are we capable of understanding prophesies if we aren't living the gospel? If spiritual things are spiritually discerned then wouldn't that include prophesy also?

[skyblue888]

We've heard the broken record of skyblue888 and how anyone who believes differently from him/her on the 1290/1335 days should be kicked out of the SDA church. Yet, that particular prophecy does not form part of the 28 fundamental beliefs. It may be past or it may be future. I'm still open to both sides. Perhaps, the statement of Ellen White in regards to messages of time is misinterpreted. After all, won't there be a message given to righteous man (following the close of probation) from the Father where He announces the day and hour of Christ's return?

Windsor, Where did I ever suggest that those who believe differently than me should be kikked out of the SDA church???!!!

Is there any evidence to this allegation?

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: John317

Therefore any prophecy in the Bible that brings attention to this beast power is subject to criticism and subtle re-interpretations. Today Catholicism is doing its best to undo all that protestantism (especially adventism) has accomplished by infiltrating our ranks, passing themselves off as staunch adventists and I must say they have done a good job at convincing many that our understanding of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are obsolete and must be re-interpreted.

Which beast power does this post refer to? The final and most powerful beast referred to in Revelation is the one in Rev. 13. This is not Catholicism, it is apostate Protestantism springing up in the good ol USA. So why the fixation on the power that will never be the force that it used to be? Unless we believe that the beast of Rev. 13 is no longer apostate Protestantism but rather the resurrection of the Roman church disguised as Protestantism. So who is doing the reinterpreting?

John just quoted this statement:

"The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. GC 565

...to regain control of the world...

True, Apostate Protestantism is the next power to persecute the faithful but she will not be alone. She will give her power and authority to the papacy and thus heal her wound. The papacy is the eighth mentioned in Revelation 17, the one that was before 1798, is not after 1798, and yet is again when her wound shall be healed with the help of Apostate Protestantism.

sky

[skyblue888]

There's no question all the segments of the 2,300 year prophecy are in the past.

The question is: Can you reapply certain segments in a multiple or dual appliction to the future? A few well known Adventists ministers say you can. I remain skeptical that is possible in terms of literal time. I think you can reapply the principles, as "history repeats itself". For instance there WILL be persecution in the future as great and more so than during the 1,260 time frame that is passed. But I don't believe we can apply 1,260 literal days of time on it, certainly not years.

Right on Club.

This is exactly what I believe as well.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

... to jettison the prophecies which concern our past and by the same token the identity of the first beast of Revelation 13:1-10 otherwise called the king of the north mentioned in Daniel 11:40-45. As we know the 1260 day prophecy points to the first beast of Rev.13, the papal power, receiving a deadly wound at the hand of Atheistic France in 1798 and the 1290 and 1335 day prophecies extend beyond 1798 to the rise of the Advent movement by which this beast power was to be exposed by the clever of truth. Therefore any prophecy in the Bible that brings attention to this beast power is subject to criticism and subtle re-interpretations. Today Catholicism is doing its best to undo all that protestantism (especially adventism) has accomplished by infiltrating our ranks, passing themselves off as staunch adventists and I must say they have done a good job at convincing many that our understanding of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are obsolete and must be re-interpreted.

This is worth posting again, sky. Very well put! Thanks for that!

There really should be an article on this in the Adventist Review. All our world church needs to be made aware of it.

Quote:

The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. GC 565

This is happening right under our noses while most SDAs sleep and many even deny that it's happening. Sadly, instead, jokes are made about it.

Exactly. Thanks John.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Windsor

.. won't there be a message given to righteous man (following the close of probation) from the Father where He announces the day and hour of Christ's return?

Yes, God the Father proclaims only a short time before the second coming the day and the hour of Christ's return. But that will not be a message preached to the world.

It therefore doesn't contradict Ellen White's statement that there will never again be a message based on time.

Quote:

And as God spoke the day and the hour of Jesus' coming, and delivered the everlasting covenant to His people, He spoke one sentence, and then paused, while the words were rolling through the earth. The Israel of God stood with their eyes fixed upward, listening to the words as they came from the mouth of Jehovah, and rolled through the earth like peals of loudest thunder. It was awfully solemn. And at the end of every sentence the saints shouted, "Glory! Alleluia" Their countenances were lighted up with the glory of God; and they shone with the glory, as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked could not look on them for the glory. And when the never-ending blessing was pronounced on those who had honored God in keeping His Sabbath holy, there was a mighty shout of victory over the beast and over his image. {CET 95, 96}

Right on.

sky

[John317]

Which beast power does this post refer to? The final and most powerful beast referred to in Revelation is the one in Rev. 13. This is not Catholicism, it is apostate Protestantism springing up in the good ol USA.

The sea-beast of Rev. 13 is the Papal System, or the Roman Catholic Church. It is the power which succeeded the pagan Roman Empire. See Rev. 13: 2.

The earth-beast is the United States.

The "image to the beast" represents apostate Protestantism.

Ellen White wrote:

Quote:

"The beast" mentioned in this message, whose worship is enforced by the two-horned beast, is the first, or leopardlike beast of Revelation 13 -- the papacy. The "image to the beast" represents that form of apostate Protestantism which will be developed when the Protestant churches shall seek the aid of the civil power for the enforcement of their dogmas. GC 445

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

So why the fixation on the power that will never be the force that it used to be? Unless we believe that the beast of Rev. 13 is no longer apostate Protestantism but rather the resurrection of the Roman church disguised as Protestantism. So who is doing the reinterpreting?

Eventually the "deadly wound" received by the sea-beast-- the Papacy-- will be completely healed. Its power will be restored. It's been the process of being restored since 1929 and is continuing to be restored today.

Quote:

It has been shown that the United States is the power represented by the beast with lamblike horns, and that this prophecy will be fulfilled when the United States shall enforce Sunday observance, which Rome claims as the special acknowledgment of her supremacy. But in this homage to the papacy the United States will not be alone. The influence of Rome in the countries that once acknowledged her dominion is still far from being destroyed. And prophecy foretells a restoration of her power. "I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." Verse 3. The infliction of the deadly wound points to the downfall of the papacy in 1798. After this, says the prophet, "his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." Paul states plainly that the "man of sin" will continue until the second advent. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8. To the very close of time he will carry forward the work of deception. And the revelator declares, also referring to the papacy: "All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life." Revelation 13:8. In both the Old and the New World, the papacy will receive homage in the honor paid to the Sunday institution, that rests solely upon the authority of the Roman Church. {GC 578.3}

The first beast of Rev. 13 is not apostate Protestanism. The latter is symbolized by the "image to the beast".

Quote:

In chapter 13 (verses 1-10) is described another beast, "like unto a leopard," to which the dragon gave "his power, and his seat, and great authority." This symbol, as most Protestants have believed, represents the papacy, which succeeded to the power and seat and authority once held by the ancient Roman empire. Of the leopardlike beast it is declared: "There was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies. . . . And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." This prophecy, which is nearly identical with the description of the little horn of Daniel 7, unquestionably points to the papacy. {GC 439.1}

[cheddar]

The earth-beast of Rev. 13 is not the United States for 3 main reasons:

1) He calls fire down out of heaven. A country cannot do this without wresting the scriptures. Elijah and Solomon literally called fire down out of heaven and EGW says that Satan will also do this in the last days.

2) He deceives the people of earth by lying wonders and miracles. Again the acts of an individual not a country.

3) The last verse of Rev. 13 says that the number of the beast is the number of a man. A man is not a country! Jesus Christ is in the form of a man so Satan's impersonation will also be in the form of a man similar to John's description in Rev. chap 1.

[skyblue888]

Revelation 13 speaks of two beasts. The first rises up out of the sea and the second out of the earth. To rise up out of the sea means that it rose to power in a populated area (the sea being a symbol of peoples, multitudes, nations) as opposed to rising up out of the earth meaning that it rose to power out of a territory previously unoccupied and growing up gradually and peacefully.

Isn't it interesting that the papal power rose out of the populated area of Europe, out of a sea of nations and peoples and tongues, but the US rose to power from a territory previously unoccupied just as this prophesy says.

Cheddar, Can you name one country in the world other than the US that would better fit this prophecy?

sky

[John317]

The earth-beast of Rev. 13 is not the United States for 3 main reasons:

1) He calls fire down out of heaven. A country cannot do this without wresting the scriptures. Elijah and Solomon literally called fire down out of heaven and EGW says that Satan will also do this in the last days.

2) He deceives the people of earth by lying wonders and miracles. Again the acts of an individual not a country.

A country are the people in a country through whom Satan works. Satan will work through the people in the US in order to make it appear that they are bringing fire down from heaven. It will counterfeit the miracle of Elijah on Mt. Carmel. Such miracles will convince the world that the new organization-- the image of the beast-- has the blessing of God.

The SDA Bible Commentary, in its comments on Rev. 13: 13, says, "As the ancient sign gave evidence of the power of the true God, so the beast will make it appear that God is supporting his program. Seventh-day Adventists expect these miracles to come through the agency of spiritism (see GC 588). Satan, claiming to be God, will seek to support his claim by means of undeniable miracles (see 2 Thess. 2: 9, 10; 9 T 16)."

[Windsor]

Originally Posted By: Windsor

We've heard the broken record of skyblue888 and how anyone who believes differently from him/her on the 1290/1335 days should be kicked out of the SDA church. Yet, that particular prophecy does not form part of the 28 fundamental beliefs. It may be past or it may be future. I'm still open to both sides. Perhaps, the statement of Ellen White in regards to messages of time is misinterpreted. After all, won't there be a message given to righteous man (following the close of probation) from the Father where He announces the day and hour of Christ's return?

Windsor, Where did I ever suggest that those who believe differently than me should be kikked out of the SDA church???!!!

Is there any evidence to this allegation?

sky

Sorry, sky. I had you confused with ClubV12 as you are both anti-futurist on the 1290/1335. I could still go either way on that one.

[John317]

3) The last verse of Rev. 13 says that the number of the beast is the number of a man. A man is not a country! Jesus Christ is in the form of a man so Satan's impersonation will also be in the form of a man similar to John's description in Rev. chap 1.

The "number of the beast" refers to the first beast, not the second beast. This beast is the Roman Catholic Church, which has a man at its head. That man is the pope, one of whose titles is Vicar of the Son of God. The Latin is Vicarius Filii dei, and the numerical value of the title totals 666.

It should be observed here that the identity of the first beast can be conclusively made on the basis of other evidence, and the number of the beast simply confirms it.

I do agree with you, however, that Satan will impersonate Christ.

[ClubV12]

Windsor, I think your just confused in general.

Nobody has suggested anyone should be kicked out of the church for their interpretation of 1290-1335 day/prophecy. But SOME have denounced their membership IN the church because they felt so strongly the church was wrong about it.

Lets be clear about the positions, Windsor, before you start spreading rumors and gossip and talking about stuff you don't even know about.

Lets be clear on MY position, all time segments of the 2,300 are in the past, period. They have been completed, done, finished. Clear enough?

Since your not sure WHERE you stand on it, Windsor, you only have a few choices.

1. Deny all aspects have been completed and place some portion in the future. Very dangerous position because depending on HOW you do that you destroy the most fundamental belief Adventists have. 1844 and the Investigative Judgment could be directly attacked. Marian Berry supporters take this position, she renounced her SDA membership.

2. Dual fulfillment. I don't think thats a reasonable option, I cannot make a case for that applying to any part of the 2,300 prophecy. Some people do, but it's a weak and twisted logic case as I've studied it. Doesn't hold water.

3. Partial fulfillment, in a strict biblical sense. I don't know of ANYONE who takes this position.

4. History repeating. The prophecy and segments of the prophecy won't be fulfilled again, but the history will be repeated. Persecution as it is was the dark ages WILL happen again. We can learn MUCH from Daniel and from history to prepare for a repeat of wide spread and very serious persecution coming again.

Pick one of the above, Windsor, or propose your own theory. But please, drop the personal insinuations unless you know what your talking about.

[ClubV12]

I find it amazing that the issue of Jesus Himself announcing the day and hour of His coming could even be disussed on the same level as "man" calculating and setting a date for Jesus' coming.

Jesus announcing the day or and hour of His coming AFTER probabation has closed has NOTHING to do with Sister Whites comments concerning "date setting" by MAN. It's pathetic to even suggest a connection!!!

[cheddar]

You're making out Satan and the United States as being the same thing. This is false, Satan works thru leaders in all countries.

At some point in the future (oops I said the bad word) Satan will come and impersonate Jesus Christ. When this happens he won't be working thru any country. He will command all people and all countries to worship himself not the United States.

This is yet another example of how cherished historical beliefs are placed above the clearest verses of scripture.