Selfishness vs Altruism

[fccool]

I think it's not uncommon for us to point out the selfish people, and selfishness in general as a universal problem of mankind. Selfishness denotes an excessive or exclusive concern with oneself, and as such it exceeds mere self interest or self concern (wiki definition).

I sort of came up with a Biblical definition of selfishness that perhaps you can relate to. Selfish people think that they are better than everyone else, hence the world should revolve around them... because they are better.

I think that the point of Christ is to show that the way to true altruism is the opposite. The example of Christ was to get beneath even the "worst" people out there, while all of the people around Him were screaming "you are tarnishing your reputation.". Even more so, His criticism was generally directed at people who thought that they were better, and that they could tell other people how to live because of that.

It's sad to find such attitude in church today, as it is the primary reason why people avoid church and God. The God of Christianity is often reflected as a selfish being by selfish Christians, who believe themselves to be "better". It's no wonder that such "Christian ideals" makes its way into political arena. And I would not be surprised if Adventist prophetic predictions did come true with "Christians" once again telling the rest of the world how to behave (through legalizing Christian ideals).

Quote:

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

I believe that the above is the key to understanding and empathy. When we think that we are "better than other people", it sort of gives us the right to judgmental and impatient criticism.

The question is whether we do things because we love people and want them to be better, or we do thing out of duty and feeling of spiritual superiority.

[Tom Wetmore]

[abelisle]

Makes me think of the verse that says: " . . . esteem others as better than yourself . . ."

[Gail]

Yes, Jesus "took upon him the form of a servant" Phil.2:something

Good discussion!

[Neil D]

Quote:

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

I believe that the above is the key to understanding and empathy. When we think that we are "better than other people", it sort of gives us the right to judgmental and impatient criticism.

The question is whether we do things because we love people and want them to be better, or we do thing out of duty and feeling of spiritual superiority.

Ok, now to turn this discussion on it's side........

Isn't it true, that when we point out the selfishness of others, that we are bringing ourselves to the same level as those who act just as selfish?

IOWs, are we, who tell those who are selfish, "hey, you are being selfish", not doing the same thing as those who are selfish? We recognise thier selfishness...do we not see our own?

If this sound familiar, perhaps it's because it is from Roman 3....and it's regarding the subject 'righteousness'....

In my mind, it is easy to point out wrong....it is much harder to live right...and do so quietly without sounding a gong and point to myself...

No, to love is so much harder than to live with someone else's best interests at heart....

Just my thougnts today...

[Outta Here]

Altruists do not need think themselves as "less than" others; contrariwise, selfish persons do not necessarily think themselves as "better" than others. It is the motivation for action that differs between the two, and one's own understanding of self-worth (when compared to the worth of others) does not necessarily have influence over that motivation.

Altruistic persons will want to help others regardless of their own perceived self-worth.

[olger]

Sounds like people need peace in their life.

[cardw]

The question is whether we do things because we love people and want them to be better, or we do thing out of duty and feeling of spiritual superiority.

I think if you do it out of duty you don't get to share in the joy of the other person. It tends to sabotage the empathetic connection.

Maybe this is what Jesus meant when someone does it to gain notoriety they have their reward. Maybe it's not so much a condemnation but pointing to what someone is missing out on.

I'm grateful to people who help me out no matter what their motivation. The outcome is the same for me. And if someone gets credit for helping me out, great. They should get credit.

I find more and more that in my work there is great satisfaction that comes when the light bulb turns on and I'm able to give someone hope when there wasn't hope. I can feel the emotional shift and there is a sense of healing that goes both ways.

I think it's very true that when we really give to another person there is a flow of love in both directions whether or not the other person realizes it. More and more I sense a great circle in the flow of life.

[CoAspen]

[phkrause]

I think it's very true that when we really give to another person there is a flow of love in both directions whether or not the other person realizes it. More and more I sense a great circle in the flow of life.

I believe this is exactly what God intended when he created Man.

[Twilight II]

It is not a question of "attitude" but of "nature".

We are born into this world inheriting the nature of "Adam".

This is selfish.

And there is only one solution for this...

Despite the liberal need and tendency to try to "approve" "Adam", or indeed the conservative need and tendency to "restrain" "Adam".

Rejecting those methods because of obvious flaws, only one solution offered actually works.

And that solution is the receipt of Gods nature, which is a gift in Jesus Christ.

That nature is altruistic to its core.

Jesus was by "nature" altruistic...

And the only solution to the human problem is to receive that nature.

[phkrause]

Great post Twilight. I agree with your thoughts very much.

[cardw]

It is not a question of "attitude" but of "nature".

We are born into this world inheriting the nature of "Adam".

This is selfish.

I have not observed this to be true at all. I find that people get a lot of joy from helping others. I get a lot of joy from helping others.

Now if you are going to compete to see who can give up the most or help people the most you're going to miss out on the joy.

And Christianity tends to focus people on themselves and their performance. This is not a solution. It creates selfishness.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

It is not a question of "attitude" but of "nature".

We are born into this world inheriting the nature of "Adam".

This is selfish.

I have not observed this to be true at all. I find that people get a lot of joy from helping others. I get a lot of joy from helping others.

Now if you are going to compete to see who can give up the most or help people the most you're going to miss out on the joy.

And Christianity tends to focus people on themselves and their performance. This is not a solution. It creates selfishness.

Christianity does not focus on people and performance...

Christianity is the only religion that plainly states each of us are totally hopeless.

Each of us have no chance to be "good" whatsoever.

All the other beliefs and religions are works based, because they propose that a man can pull himself up by his bootstraps, this includes athiesm.

Christianity says:

You are a failure, you are no good and you will always be like that.

Now let me rescue you from that situation by giving you a new nature.

Of course "false christianity" answers your clarion call with quite a degree of enthusiasm.

But if you believe that is what Christianity is, you have not understood it at all, but do not be dismayed, you are in a very large camp that want to throw stones at the...

..."wrong christianity"...

That being the case, I join you in your condemnation of that "false Christianity"...

After all, Jesus condemned that as well.

[phkrause]

Christianity does not focus on people and performance...

Christianity is the only religion that plainly states each of us are totally hopeless.

Each of us have no chance to be "good" whatsoever.

All the other beliefs and religions are works based, because they propose that a man can pull himself up by his bootstraps, this includes athiesm.

Christianity says:

You are a failure, you are no good and you will always be like that.

Now let me rescue you from that situation by giving you a new nature.

Of course "false christianity" answers your clarion call with quite a degree of enthusiasm.

But if you believe that is what Christianity is, you have not understood it at all, but do not be dismayed, you are in a very large camp that want to throw stones at the...

..."wrong christianity"...

That being the case, I join you in your condemnation of that "false Christianity"...

After all, Jesus condemned that as well.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I have not observed this to be true at all. I find that people get a lot of joy from helping others. I get a lot of joy from helping others.

Now if you are going to compete to see who can give up the most or help people the most you're going to miss out on the joy.

And Christianity tends to focus people on themselves and their performance. This is not a solution. It creates selfishness.

Christianity does not focus on people and performance...

Christianity is the only religion that plainly states each of us are totally hopeless.

Each of us have no chance to be "good" whatsoever.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Christianity says:

You are a failure, you are no good and you will always be like that.

If you want to create psychopathic children this is what you tell them.

Why would that create psycopathic children?

That is a very broad statement you have made there...

Do you want to support your statement with some logic?

[cardw]

Christianity says:

You are a failure, you are no good and you will always be like that.

Originally Posted By: cardw

If you want to create psychopathic children this is what you tell them.

Why would that create psycopathic children?

That is a very broad statement you have made there...

Do you want to support your statement with some logic?

Sure. There is a lot of evidence to support the idea that if you make a child loose value for themselves they will loose value for others.

This is strongly implicated in the statement by Jesus that we are to love others as we love ourselves. If this is taken literally then a lack of love for oneself would result in the lack of love for others. This whole statement relies on the ability to empathize.

A psychopathic child doesn't develop the ability to empathize.

A statement like this forces a child to continually look at themselves as evil. They are taught a very painful form of narcissism. This prevents them from developing empathy. They fail to develop affectional bonds that allow them to empathize with another's pain. What they have developed are traits of arrogance, dishonesty, narcissism, shamelessness, and callousness.

Many sociopathic and psychopathic children come from very religious homes that teach this concept that no one is good and we are all evil. Not all children from these situations become sociopathic or psychopathic because not all children have the tendencies to cause them to act out. Many children turn inward and experience very painful isolation and tend to not mature into adults.

I have seen this very often in highly religious families. The fallout is pretty painful to watch.

I also know this from personal experience. This phrase was repeated to me many times from what I read, from the pulpit, from my family, and re-inforced by the SDA culture.

In my early thirties I began to have anxiety attacks. I tested out as extremely narcissistic and the test revealed that I was lying to myself. I was totally unaware of this condition. I was socially inappropriate and I had little ability to empathize with others. I looked normal because I am very intelligent and very good a being a mimic.

To come out of this I had to commit to a program of rigorous honesty and accountability. It took me about 10 years, but it has been worth it. I freely love other people and genuinely care for others. That brings me a lot of pleasure.

You don't have to search far to find a number of articles on this. And it really takes quite of lot of narcissism to even tell people that they will be evil for the rest of their lives.

[Twilight II]

Some interesting thoughts Rich...

But what your response did not cover was a very simple point.

Christ takes that which is evil and turns it into something good.

Teaching a child the value of surrendering to Christ, so that Christ can put His nature in the child is all positive.

I think what you are describing is something else.

What you are describing is the complete removal of value from the child.

-------------

So to compare the two scenarios:

1. You are broken and worthless.

2. You are broken, but God can and will fix you and turn you into something quite beautiful.

-------------

I think you have just argued against Scenario 1, which I would also argue against.

But what I am discussing is Scenario 2, which your response did not really address.

The first is not Christianity, that is something "else".

The second is Christianity, which is positive.

Its a bit like a child being told they have a broken arm and then taken to the doctors so it can be fixed.

That is a "positive" experience for the child.

Mark :-)

[cardw]

Some interesting thoughts Rich...

But what your response did not cover was a very simple point.

Christ takes that which is evil and turns it into something good.

Teaching a child the value of surrendering to Christ, so that Christ can put His nature in the child is all positive.

I think what you are describing is something else.

What you are describing is the complete removal of value from the child.

-------------

How else is a child going to interpret the message that your natural inclination is evil and it will be this way for the rest of your life?

That removes any possibility for a cure.

When you say that Christ will put his nature into the child this doesn't change the child. The child will have to spend the rest of his life dependent on this nature. The child continues to be evil to the core.

This would be great if having the nature of Christ (whatever that means) made real changes. If this worked like you describe you would have people flocking to Christianity.

It simply doesn't work.

Watching porn is practiced by 60-90 percent of Christian men surveyed by Christian research centers. There is no bias against Christianity because this is an internal study.

This is considered committing adultery by most Christian values systems. This is one of the 10 commandments. It is not a small infraction within Christian value systems.

This is an absolute failure of Christianity to change nature.

I prayed to god a whole lot my whole life and nothing changed. Nothing period. I accepted his nature, I asked for the indwelling of his spirit. You name it I did or asked for it. No results period.

So you tell me, if I'm sick and a doctor comes along and offers a cure and 20 years later I'm still sick, do you think that I should still go to that doctor?

Of course not.

My recovery came from doing methods that provided results and were based on principles that required no god to work. I began to get relief right away.

So based on the evidence, how much motivation am I going to have to believe that, based on claims with no evidence, that Christianity works?

[Gail]

I still say that what happened to you, Richard, should never have happened. But adults in ignorance do only the best they can with what they have. I doubt that there is a single generation that is unscathed.

If I was a Christian parent of a small child now, I would teach him by taking him out into nature and showing him examples of how nature's creations live to serve. Of course, there are exceptions, but generally it doesn't matter where you look, there are lessons everywhere.

That is God's law of love in action, and it is altruism.

Trying to explain sin and its nature and our natures to children takes skill. Many adults don't understand God's love and how salvation works, let alone trying to explain the concept to a child.

[cardw]

I still say that what happened to you, Richard, should never have happened. But adults in ignorance do only the best they can with what they have. I doubt that there is a single generation that is unscathed.

If I was a Christian parent of a small child now, I would teach him by taking him out into nature and showing him examples of how nature's creations live to serve. Of course, there are exceptions, but generally it doesn't matter where you look, there are lessons everywhere.

That is God's law of love in action, and it is altruism.

Trying to explain sin and its nature and our natures to children takes skill. Many adults don't understand God's love and how salvation works, let alone trying to explain the concept to a child.

Gail,

I went to major Adventist academies for my education. I was at Pacific Union College. I took college courses from Irwin Gane and Morris Vendon. I studied with Graham Maxwell. I graduated from Loma Linda University.

I have the best education that Adventism could offer and I'm grateful for that education and yet it had no clue of how to answer what I was facing.

This is not a failure of a family. It's a failure of a culture. And when I see the same types of concepts being taught as truth with no critical analysis I know that nothing has fundamentally changed.

As long as Adventism relies on a literal understanding of the Bible and Ellen White it will continue to foster this type of pain on its adherents. These concepts are in the DNA of Ellen White and the apologetics needed to sustain them.

I'm am far from being a single case. I'm pretty mild in the expression of disgust compared to the rage expressed by others who have had to endure this toxic mix. And too often their rage is pointed out as a fulfillment of prophecy about former believers turning on the pure ones with rage because they have been possessed by the devil. That's fairly predictable so I'm used to it.

It only lets me know that there are still a lot of people stuck.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Some interesting thoughts Rich...

But what your response did not cover was a very simple point.

Christ takes that which is evil and turns it into something good.

Teaching a child the value of surrendering to Christ, so that Christ can put His nature in the child is all positive.

I think what you are describing is something else.

What you are describing is the complete removal of value from the child.

-------------

How else is a child going to interpret the message that your natural inclination is evil and it will be this way for the rest of your life?

That removes any possibility for a cure.

When you say that Christ will put his nature into the child this doesn't change the child. The child will have to spend the rest of his life dependent on this nature. The child continues to be evil to the core.

This would be great if having the nature of Christ (whatever that means) made real changes. If this worked like you describe you would have people flocking to Christianity.

It simply doesn't work.

Watching porn is practiced by 60-90 percent of Christian men surveyed by Christian research centers. There is no bias against Christianity because this is an internal study.

This is considered committing adultery by most Christian values systems. This is one of the 10 commandments. It is not a small infraction within Christian value systems.

This is an absolute failure of Christianity to change nature.

I prayed to god a whole lot my whole life and nothing changed. Nothing period. I accepted his nature, I asked for the indwelling of his spirit. You name it I did or asked for it. No results period.

So you tell me, if I'm sick and a doctor comes along and offers a cure and 20 years later I'm still sick, do you think that I should still go to that doctor?

Of course not.

My recovery came from doing methods that provided results and were based on principles that required no god to work. I began to get relief right away.

So based on the evidence, how much motivation am I going to have to believe that, based on claims with no evidence, that Christianity works?

What is interesting here is your argument.

You basically point out that because a majority of Christians fail, that the belief system is also a failure.

But the majority is not the example.

Jesus is the example that all Christians must look to.

And indeed Christ said:

Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So here we have an outright observation from Christ that the "majority" should not be the test.

But what is interesting is that you then point out how "you" found your mechanism for healing.

And that "mechanism" is a "minority" mechanism.

That being the case, how can someone arguing from the position that they have found a solution that is understood by a "minority", argue against a "minority" having found the solution?

You actually argue against your own argument, unless you are off course arguing that masses of people around the world have found this perfect solution you want to share with all on here?

:-)

The point is simple Rich.

There is salvation from God.

And it requires God to change us, through His Son Jesus Christ.

But many think they can "fix themselves up", even many Christians.

When they cannot.

And you my friend are making the exact same argument, you believe you can obtain healing through your own efforts, that you do not need God.

Now according to the scripture, that position would makes one decieved...

Because the bible states plainly:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

This is a fundamental truth, we are all broken.

That includes me and that includes you Rich...

[Gail]

Gail,

I went to major Adventist academies for my education. I was at Pacific Union College. I took college courses from Irwin Gane and Morris Vendon. I studied with Graham Maxwell. I graduated from Loma Linda University.

I have the best education that Adventism could offer and I'm grateful for that education and yet it had no clue of how to answer what I was facing.

This is not a failure of a family. It's a failure of a culture. And when I see the same types of concepts being taught as truth with no critical analysis I know that nothing has fundamentally changed.

As long as Adventism relies on a literal understanding of the Bible and Ellen White it will continue to foster this type of pain on its adherents. These concepts are in the DNA of Ellen White and the apologetics needed to sustain them.

I'm am far from being a single case. I'm pretty mild in the expression of disgust compared to the rage expressed by others who have had to endure this toxic mix. And too often their rage is pointed out as a fulfillment of prophecy about former believers turning on the pure ones with rage because they have been possessed by the devil. That's fairly predictable so I'm used to it.

It only lets me know that there are still a lot of people stuck.

Yes, I agree with you in that there are many disgruntled folk out there. I know some and you speak rightly when you say that you are pretty mild compared to some.

The book knowledge that you received was one part of Christian learning. The other, that may have benefitted you (even more?) was what I call, "horizontal," or the learning that comes from experience. It is the working of compassion and love outwards toward others. Sometimes the practice throws the theory for a loop!

But when the books don't make sense and it feels like they are not everything (they aren't), visiting a slum or 3rd world country will. Caring for a dying person is the stuff of life. Ministering to the unemployed or hungry or orphans makes you a co-worker with Jesus himself. Seeking to re-instate dignity in a soul is first-class. IOW, getting your hands dirty is just as noble as the book knowledge.

[Gail]

What I am talking about is mercy and it is a heart thing. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? It's kinda hard to explain.