Selfishness vs Altruism

[cardw]

What I am talking about is mercy and it is a heart thing. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? It's kinda hard to explain.

I understand exactly what you mean by a heart thing. My point and my discovery is that you don't need all the weight of a religion or belief system to take advantage of that.

I don't need a savior to save me or a spirit to come into me. This heart thing is built in. I have not experienced people as naturally being evil to the core.

[Gail]

If you had seen more heart in those of your church and your past, would it have made a difference in the place you're at today?

Without reading your answer, I dare say it would make a difference to many... like the saying attributed to Ghandi that goes, "I would be a Christian if it weren't for Christians."

[Gail]

And I don't doubt that you do, indeed, have a heart! That is even a Biblical principle, about every man having a measure of faith.

:)

[Gail]

That's Romans 12:3, if anyone is wondering...

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Watching porn is practiced by 60-90 percent of Christian men surveyed by Christian research centers. There is no bias against Christianity because this is an internal study.

This is considered committing adultery by most Christian values systems. This is one of the 10 commandments. It is not a small infraction within Christian value systems.

This is an absolute failure of Christianity to change nature.

I prayed to god a whole lot my whole life and nothing changed. Nothing period. I accepted his nature, I asked for the indwelling of his spirit. You name it I did or asked for it. No results period.

So you tell me, if I'm sick and a doctor comes along and offers a cure and 20 years later I'm still sick, do you think that I should still go to that doctor?

Of course not.

My recovery came from doing methods that provided results and were based on principles that required no god to work. I began to get relief right away.

So based on the evidence, how much motivation am I going to have to believe that, based on claims with no evidence, that Christianity works?

What is interesting here is your argument.

You basically point out that because a majority of Christians fail, that the belief system is also a failure.

But the majority is not the example.

Jesus is the example that all Christians must look to.

And indeed Christ said:

Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

These means that Christianity can have any amount of failure and still be considered true. That's the problem. Christianity has no accountability.

Quoting the Bible is not a valid defense. You treat the Bible like it has magical powers that trump all other arguments simply because it's in the Bible.

I can't afford to place my confidence in something that produces no results.

[cardw]

But what is interesting is that you then point out how "you" found your mechanism for healing.

And that "mechanism" is a "minority" mechanism.

[Twilight II]

These means that Christianity can have any amount of failure and still be considered true. That's the problem. Christianity has no accountability.

Quoting the Bible is not a valid defense. You treat the Bible like it has magical powers that trump all other arguments simply because it's in the Bible.

I can't afford to place my confidence in something that produces no results.

And the humanism/self determinism (please change the label if you feel it does not fit) you present?

Does that have a 100% success rate?

No, of course not.

In fact God tells us that it has 0% success rate.

It is only through the power of God that anyone can overcome their "narcicism" or "selfishness".

Now this idea of "self-determinism" that you hold on to and present as "another gospel"...

You do realise that this was the very thing offered to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden don't you?

[Twilight II]

We are human. That means we don't know everything. We are limited.

Yet you know more on this subject of healing than Jesus Christ Himself?

Why do I say that?

Because you are claiming that your method is superior to Christianity.

Which in essence means that your method is above what Christ taught.

When you set yourself up as an opponent of Christianity, are you not in effect saying you know more than Jesus Christ Himself?

Now I do not have a problem with you denouncing false Christianity.

But when you denounce "all Christianity" in its entirety and substitute self-determinism in its place, then an honest Christian has to stand up and point out the error of what you present.

There is nothing in what you present that was not presented in the garden of Eden...

:-)

[Igakusei]

Are you trying to intimidate him into submission?

Adam and Even never existed, and if JC even existed, he wasn't anything more than an apocalyptic Jew. He probably would have rolled over in his grave if he knew that his disciples turned him into the headpiece of a gentile religion.

[Twilight II]

Are you trying to intimidate him into submission?

Adam and Even never existed, and if JC even existed, he wasn't anything more than an apocalyptic Jew. He probably would have rolled over in his grave if he knew that his disciples turned him into the headpiece of a gentile religion.

No, not trying to intimidate anyone, not sure why you would make that statement...

As to the part about Adam and Eve not existing and the inference that Jesus might not have done...

...Who told you that?

In fact that would be a great thread...

Why not start a new thread on this topic and lay out your reasons why you think Adam and Eve did not exist and Jesus' existance was possibly doubtful?

:-)

[Igakusei]

Genetic analysis has shown for quite some time that the human race has never had a significant bottleneck.

Cheetahs, for instance, were reduced to a population of around seven individuals about 10,000 years ago. It might not have been exactly seven, or exactly 10,000 years ago, but those are pretty good estimates. Even today, 10,000 years later, they share so much genetic similarity that we can take skin grafts from one cheetah and apply it randomly to another, and most of the time there is no sign of rejection. This would NEVER work with humans, or most other mammals.

Similar analysis on our own genetic diversity consistently shows that throughout the existence of our species we have never been smaller than about 10,000 individuals. A new study was just published in Nature earlier this year using even more accurate methods that helps confirm it.

I expect the standard response from fundamentalists will be to deny the science, similar to how evolution and climate science are simply dismissed out of hand.

[Twilight II]

Genetic analysis has shown for quite some time that the human race has never had a significant bottleneck.

Cheetahs, for instance, were reduced to a population of around seven individuals about 10,000 years ago. It might not have been exactly seven, or exactly 10,000 years ago, but those are pretty good estimates. Even today, 10,000 years later, they share so much genetic similarity that we can take skin grafts from one cheetah and apply it randomly to another, and most of the time there is no sign of rejection. This would NEVER work with humans, or most other mammals.

Similar analysis on our own genetic diversity consistently shows that throughout the existence of our species we have never been smaller than about 10,000 individuals. A new study was just published in Nature earlier this year using even more accurate methods that helps confirm it.

I expect the standard response from fundamentalists will be to deny the science, similar to how evolution and climate science are simply dismissed out of hand.

I would love to discuss this with you, as I am sure others here would to...

But it would be better if you start another thread with this topic.

Please also note, that whilst many of us will admit to being fundamentalist, that doesn't mean we are not educated or cannot deal with your questions.

I am fundamentally a Christian...

But please start another thread, I would love to discuss this with you.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

These means that Christianity can have any amount of failure and still be considered true. That's the problem. Christianity has no accountability.

Quoting the Bible is not a valid defense. You treat the Bible like it has magical powers that trump all other arguments simply because it's in the Bible.

I can't afford to place my confidence in something that produces no results.

And the humanism/self determinism (please change the label if you feel it does not fit) you present?

Does that have a 100% success rate?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

We are human. That means we don't know everything. We are limited.

Yet you know more on this subject of healing than Jesus Christ Himself?

Why do I say that?

Because you are claiming that your method is superior to Christianity.

[Igakusei]

Twilight:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post476763

[Twilight II]

And that is the basic core of your position. A constant stream of cliches.

Oh, I am not so sure about that...

...Maybe a constant stream of biblical arguments, but if you want to label them as cliches, then that is your choice... :-)

But let me get this straight...

You claim that Christianity is a failure, but you have found the solution, isn't that the narcisism you are condemning?

[Twilight II]

Unlike you, I don't simply claim. I base my position on results. Even you admitted that Christianity has a small success rate because it is a minority success.

[Twilight II]

Twilight:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post476763

Thanks. :-)

Posted.

[fccool]

I do agree that we should learn to discuss certain ideals apart from their preconceived religious context.

Humans demonstrate plenty of selfless and caring qualities outside of any religious context. They likewise demonstrate plenty of terrible qualities in the name of it.

"True altruism" does not seek to do something in the name of God, or some philosophy. True altruism seeks to help no matter what, apart from religious affiliation or religious preconceptions.

[Twilight II]

Humans demonstrate plenty of selfless and caring qualities outside of any religious context. They likewise demonstrate plenty of terrible qualities in the name of it.

"True altruism" does not seek to do something in the name of God, or some philosophy. True altruism seeks to help no matter what, apart from religious affiliation or religious preconceptions.

But true altruism always has its source in God.

It is the Holy Spirit moving on the hearts of people that causes altruism.

Not something in man himself...

So you cannot remove it from its spiritual context.

[Igakusei]

I'd just like to point out that you can always tell when Christians are trying to re-define a word when they preface it with 'true.'

Like: "True freedom comes from doing what God tells you to do."

Which is pretty much exactly the opposite of what freedom literally means.

Or: "True altruism always has its source in God." Altruism isn't really altruism if you just do it because, you know, you happen to be a human being and have empathy.

[Twilight II]

I'd just like to point out that you can always tell when Christians are trying to re-define a word when they preface it with 'true.'

Like: "True freedom comes from doing what God tells you to do."

Which is pretty much exactly the opposite of what freedom literally means.

Or: "True altruism always has its source in God." Altruism isn't really altruism if you just do it because, you know, you happen to be a human being and have empathy.

The basis for my response was the Bible.

I hold that to be a true source of authority in all things, because it was inspired by God.

So when I post, you will need to bare that in mind...

[fccool]

Quote:

But true altruism always has its source in God.

Why? Why do we insist on the view that whatever good comes from God, and whatever comes from humans is evil? It's a dark age Catholic dogma that carries over to protestantism and their view of humanity.

Humans build things that are functional for ages and work quite well. Dark Age Christianity (called that for a reason) make God out to be incredibly incompetent. He created things, but they fall apart and go wrong so fast that He has to constantly inject his Holy Spirit to get out any type of good from His creation.

Quote:

It is the Holy Spirit moving on the hearts of people that causes altruism. Not something in man himself...

Once again, it would make God's creation an incredible and incompetent failure. Imagine an architect who has to constantly run around and pretty much glue a building every day. It's a very shallow view of both God and humanity.

Christians are so afraid to give certain people some credit for things that they do, as though God would not want people to hold back any credit for anything. That's where this ridiculous doctrine really comes from.

It's really like a husband who runs around and takes credit for every single thing that his wife, his children, and his co-workers do.

- My wife cooked the dish, but I bought the ingredients and gave her money.

- My kids are only awesome in math and soccer because I train them

- I'm awesome, and it really hurts when they don't give me a credit

It's silly and selfish view of God. People are quite capable to be good if they choose to, and we should recognize it. If that's not the case, then any demands on God's part for people to be good, and subsequent punishment for not being good is absolutely meaningless. It's like punishing a mute for not being able to speak.

Quote:

So you cannot remove it from its spiritual context.

What is "spiritual"? You can't begin talking about "spiritual things" and "spiritual understanding" unless you define "spiritual".

[Twilight II]

Quote:

But true altruism always has its source in God.

Why? Why do we insist on the view that whatever good comes from God, and whatever comes from humans is evil? It's a dark age Catholic dogma that carries over to protestantism and their view of humanity.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I prayed to Jesus, asked him to reveal his ways to me, asked him to send his holy spirit, and I read what he had to say in the Bible. No change. No results. Nothing. In fact I start to feel worse and worse. I'm embarrassed to say that it took me over 20 years to figure that out.

No change is evidence of no change.

Why were you "asking" for the Holy Spirit?

There is a fundamental flaw in your approach.

Upon what basis did you ask for this gift?

I guess I didn't say the magic incantation right.