Would You Welcome Gays At Your Church?

[John317]

This is a forum for all views. Tell any experiences or thoughts you have that deal directly with the question.

If you're gay, have you felt welcome in the SDA worship services?

If you're heterosexual, do you feel comfortable worshiping with someone you know or suspect is a practicing gay person?

How do you believe God would have Christ's followers respond to gay people who come to our churches to worship?

This is not a place to talk about whether it is sinful to practice gay sex. I believe we are all agreed that it is sinful, at least I believe it is.

The issue here, then, is how do we treat-- and talk to-- people who we know, or suspect, are gay?

Do you believe gays are welcome in your church?

If not, what can we do to make sure they feel welcome?

[Gail]

If a person is a practising ANYTHING, then hopefully s/he could go to church and find Jesus. If there are any changes to be made, He's likely the best bet in doing the job.

[Gail]

AND the person should be able to find people support, too, as well as Holy Spirit help.

[John317]

Could you give an example of the kind of people support you're thinking of?

Let us assume that this gay person is practicing-- that is, that he/she is in a gay relationship, perhaps even "married."

[Gerr]

Everyone should be welcomed to worship in ANY church, including mine. Welcome a practising homosexual, or adulterer or murderer, embezzler as a member? - no.

[Parade Orange]

looking at my old baptismal certificate it only says to not drink coffee and dont eat unclean meat

nothing about gay sex

hmmmm :\

[doug yowell]

looking at my old baptismal certificate it only says to not drink coffee and dont eat unclean meat

nothing about gay sex

hmmmm :\

Nor anything specific about committing adultery,group sex,child abuse, or cheating on your income tax return. Yet I think we all get God's desires without having to consult the SDA baptisimal certificate, at least I hope.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Parade Orange

looking at my old baptismal certificate it only says to not drink coffee and dont eat unclean meat

nothing about gay sex

hmmmm :\

Nor anything specific about committing adultery,group sex,child abuse, or cheating on your income tax return. Yet I think we all get God's desires without having to consult the SDA baptisimal certificate, at least I hope.

I don't commit adultery because I respect my wife and she's not down for that. I don't abuse children because I respect their right to grow into healthy adults. I'm also a decent guy and I don't enjoy hurting people (nor am I sexually attracted to children, thankfully. I feel sorry for people with that burden). I'm glad nobody seriously abused me as a child (aside from the religious fear indoctrination, which thankfully I was able to overcome). I don't cheat on my tax returns because I value living in a stable society where most people do their part to keep the wheels turning. I also prefer to avoid the stress associated with being dishonest.

No need to consult God's desires. Fortunate too, since God's desires would have me burning witches and stoning idolaters and whatnot. Hell, I'd even have to stone my own children if they talked back to me.

[John317]

Everyone should be welcomed to worship in ANY church, including mine. Welcome a practising homosexual, or adulterer or murderer, embezzler as a member? - no.

I agree Gerry, but again this discussion is not about welcoming them as members. We're talking about welcoming them to come worship and getting to know them as individuals and helping them to see the love of Jesus and hear the gospel.

[John317]

You're giving evidence that Paul is right in what he says in Romans 1: 20; 2: 15 and Acts 17: 26-28--

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth... that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us.

They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

for

" 'In him we live and move and have our being';

as even some of your own poets have said,

" 'For we are indeed his offspring.'

[Igakusei]

Wait, what?

You're saying that the fact that I'm a decent human being is evidence that God's law is written on my heart? No! It's evidence that I'm a decent human being, and I have a few things in common with the guys who came up with God's law. They were decent guys too. A little homophobic and misogynist, but generally decent.

[Gustave]

Does a practicing sodomite participate in the SDA Liturgicals...

...Or is it more correct to say that they "observe" the worship?

[John317]

Would a practicing sodomite be welcome in a Catholic Church for the purpose of listening to the homily and praying to God? Would they be made to feel unwelcome or welcome?

If you knew a practicing sodomite was sitting next to you in the pew, would you be kind to him or unkind?

(I'm not talking about his taking communion or being a member of the Catholic Church. I'm talking about someone coming into the church in order to observe and listen and pray.)

[Robert]

As long as the church changes them and not the other way around.

[John317]

Wait, what?

You're saying that the fact that I'm a decent human being is evidence that God's law is written on my heart? No! It's evidence that I'm a decent human being, and I have a few things in common with the guys who came up with God's law. They were decent guys too. A little homophobic and misogynist, but generally decent.

Where do you get your concept of what it means to be a "decent human being"?

Aren't there basic principles of what it means that you will find in all societies?

I believe this to be exactly what Paul is saying here:

They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

Reveiw what you wrote and compare it with the law of God:

Quote:

I don't commit adultery because I respect my wife and she's not down for that. I don't abuse children because I respect their right to grow into healthy adults. I'm also a decent guy and I don't enjoy hurting people (nor am I sexually attracted to children, thankfully. I feel sorry for people with that burden). I'm glad nobody seriously abused me as a child (aside from the religious fear indoctrination, which thankfully I was able to overcome). I don't cheat on my tax returns because I value living in a stable society where most people do their part to keep the wheels turning. I also prefer to avoid the stress associated with being dishonest.

You're agreeing with the law of God in its most fundamental principles regarding our duty of our fellow human beings.

Why? The Bible says it is because we are all made in the image of God, and that image is still in us to some degree.

[John317]

Agree there.

[Igakusei]

Where do you get your concept of what it means to be a "decent human being"?

Aren't there basic principles of what it means that you will find in all societies?

When you have multiple large groups of human beings that must find ways to live together in relative harmony, is it so surprising that they often come to similar conclusions?

Why is this evidence of God's law more than evidence of human beings with highly similar biology coming up with similar solutions to similar problems?

[ClubV12]

Unless they told me, I'm not sure I would even know what their sexual preferrence was. All though, depending on speech and mannerisms I might suspect. It's not an area I'm skilled in. I wouldn't ask them nor would I be bothered by it one way or the other.

Living in Hawaii for 20 plus years helped in that regard. It's such a rainbow of diversity in all regards you just give up trying to figure out where people are coming from. It becomes irrelevant what the neighbors think when EVERYBODY has some character quirk outside the "norm". Whatever the "norm" is, it varies widely....

[Parade Orange]

my buddy and i should move to HAWAII to get some fellowship

[Gail]

I would be curious as to why the person is in church to begin with.

There is something different about a person without God stepping into a church than one who has been a long-time member.

I think that the main question in life that we need to answer is: What are you going to do with Jesus? Perhaps the visitor has come to get more informed in order to answer that question.

Personally, I have no problem welcoming whoever. If someone was disruptive to the service or pestering people, the deacons can handle that. One church in our area has street people coming in, addicted people, too. They stay for the meal. I have no idea whether they get anything from the sermon but I'm always glad to see them.

Before we came to church we were all a practising something. Hopefully an encounter with Jesus will shift some priorities :)

[John317]

When you have multiple large groups of human beings that must find ways to live together in relative harmony, is it so surprising that they often come to similar conclusions?

Why is this evidence of God's law more than evidence of human beings with highly similar biology coming up with similar solutions to similar problems?

I don't want to get too far off the topic of practicing gays being welcome in church.

However, to answer your question about the evidence for God's law, I would say that it's clear to me that certain principles of right and wrong are innate. People are free to violate those basic principles-- because they are not the same as "instinct"-- but every human being is naturally aware of them. For instance, everyone knows it is wrong to steal or murder or lie. Many people do those things, but they know it is "wrong."

People could be taught that it is right to steal and murder and lie, yet there's something in human beings that would still acknowledge that those things are wrong. Therefore, I don't see evidence that they result from the fact that these behaviors are thought-out "solutions to similar problems," but rather they appear clearly to be common to all humanity as the result of nature. Paul's explanation is that we are all made in God's image and that "the requirements of His law are written on our hearts."

[Parade Orange]

JOHN317

i agree

we dont even know how depraved we are without HIS SPIRIT in us

im not talking about JESUS lovers

im talking as u say people walking the earth

not knowing or acknowledging HIM

i see that conscience being violated in SODOM

i see that conscience being violated before the flood

GOD given basic right and wrong being reduced to nothing by the population

GEN 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually

GEN 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

EZE 16:49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

the peeps on both worlds i mention were not churched

they were a free heathen/pagan society

doing whatever everyday and their conscience slowly being seared

all together

and GOD cant have intelligent animalistic passion driven steward the earth or it would stamp out humanity all together

how u treat your fellow man is GOD IMBUED -the compassion the affection its all from the original IMAGE OF GOD HE gives each other at birth! we are fearfully and wonderfully made!

the society is breaking down

by the masses they didnt give a ____ about each other

sin has driven a way the SPIRIT OF GOD by how we treat other in the most basic humane ways

we think we are good and decent without a slight IMAGE of GOD in our lives?

gimmie a break!

[John317]

[John317]

Does a practicing sodomite participate in the SDA Liturgicals...

...Or is it more correct to say that they "observe" the worship?

On this discussion we're also talking about lesbians and bisexuals and transsexuals. (Not all these people-- even among gays-- are practicing sodomites, although many are.)

But in any case, wouldn't you agree that they all need God and that God loves them and wants to save them from their sins?

There are many lesbians and bisexuals in the Roman Catholic Church as well as in the SDA church. Many of them are members of both churches, and those who are in the Catholic Church participate in the Mass. Very few let it be known in the church that they are practicing these things.

If someone is a member of the SDA church or is a baptized Christian of another denomination, they are welcome to participate in the communion services. We have open communion.

As long as a person is not intentionally disruptive in an SDA Sabbath School or worship service, they are welcome to observe, listen, worship, and pray along with the rest of the congregation. I personally believe that this is the way God wants us to do in our churches.

[Gustave]

Would a practicing sodomite be welcome in a Catholic Church for the purpose of listening to the homily and praying to God? Would they be made to feel unwelcome or welcome?

If you knew a practicing sodomite was sitting next to you in the pew, would you be kind to him or unkind?

(I'm not talking about his taking communion or being a member of the Catholic Church. I'm talking about someone coming into the church in order to observe and listen and pray.)

A practicing sodomite does not participate in Worship any more than ANYONE else who is in mortal sin...

...I know there have been times in my life where my participation in worship.

...Was absolute blasphemy simply because I was just going through the motions.

There have been times when I have attended Church to observe and pray...

...Knowing full well I was not in a valid state to participate in Worship.

As for my being kind to a sodomite of course I would....

...Their sin ( no matter how disgusting to me ).

...Is NO WORSE than my own sins.

We are all in the same boat and just because a sin seems most disgusting to one who is not attracted to it - does not mean it's any worse of a sin then I or anyone else IS attracted to.

It's ironic that the sins we are not attacted to always seem to be a greater violation than those of our own but in reality those sins are not any worse.