Would You Welcome Gays At Your Church?

[doug yowell]

Ditto.

[doug yowell]

No need to consult God's desires. Fortunate too, since God's desires would have me burning witches and stoning idolaters and whatnot. Hell, I'd even have to stone my own children if they talked back to me.

Would God be welcome at your church?

[doug yowell]

We are all in the same boat and just because a sin seems most disgusting to one who is not attracted to it - does not mean it's any worse of a sin then I or anyone else IS attracted to.

It's ironic that the sins we are not attacted to always seem to be a greater violation than those of our own but in reality those sins are not any worse.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse but while I agree with the gist of your statement I don't like or agree with the idea that all sins are equally evil, at least not in God's eyes. This is implied by the way you worded that. This sentiment is commonly stated, particulaly when discussing homosexuality, but I think it oftentimes gives a mistaken view of sin. No need to derail this thread but it might be good for another discussion.

[John317]

[John317]

Would God be welcome at your church?

Great question.

Jesus said that what we do to one of the least of these, we are doing it to him.

That means how we treat others who visit our church, it is the same as doing it to Christ. If we're not welcoming into our worship those made in His image, how can we claim we are welcoming God?

[John317]

A practicing sodomite does not participate in Worship any more than ANYONE else who is in mortal sin...

...I know there have been times in my life where my participation in worship.

...Was absolute blasphemy simply because I was just going through the motions.

I agree to the extent that when we are living in sin and without repentence for it, we can't really participate in true worship of God.

But how about people who aren't yet convicted that their sin is really sin? Doesn't God look upon them differently than He does on people who are convicted of sin and yet go on practicing it? I believe the Bible shows that God judges us according to the light we have of the truth. For instance, God would judge you and me differently if we did those things because we know it is wrong based on what God has revealed in the Bible. But what about people who have never studied the Bible or who have never heard the gospel clearly before?

What if these people enter a church to listen and pray, and they meet people who are unfriendly and say unkind things about "faggots," etc.?

We need to realize that there are people who stay away from church because they are afraid that someone at church will know they are gay. I think it's likely that if such people knew they would be welcomed and treated the same as everyone else, they wouldn't stay away. These are people who really want to go.

[Igakusei]

But what about people who have never studied the Bible or who have never heard the gospel clearly before?

2,000 years later, people still can't agree on the balance between works and grace regarding salvation. Even within Adventism, I've seen communities bitterly divided over this. With both sides earnestly seeking guidance from the Holy Spirit, and convinced that they have it.

Where is the clarity, again?

[doug yowell]

[What if these people enter a church to listen and pray, and they meet people who are unfriendly and say unkind things about "faggots," etc.?

Well, if a bunch of faggots set you on fire at the stake, you'd probably, say a lot of unfriendly things about them too.

[John317]

Yeah, I get your point. "Faggot" can have several meanings, and the Christians used to be burned with faggots, that is, by burning pieces of wood.

There's this too:

"Faggot (slang), pejorative, now usually for a gay man, also having older and derived pejorative senses." Dictionary.

[John317]

I don't like or agree with the idea that all sins are equally evil, at least not in God's eyes.

It's true that God doesn't see all sins in exactly the same way. All sin is sin and all sin unrepented of can separate the sinner from God, yet there are some sins that are worse in God's eyes than others. For instance, it is obvious that David's sin against Bathsheba and her husband was more grevious than other sins that David had committed. Similarly, it should be obvious that the attempted rape of the angels at Sodom was worse in God's eyes than some other sins.

Gustave's main point, though, I think, was that since we ourselves are sinners, we have no right to judge some sins as making other people beyond God's love and salvation. I'm sure we all agree with him on that.

[Gustave]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse but while I agree with the gist of your statement I don't like or agree with the idea that all sins are equally evil, at least not in God's eyes. This is implied by the way you worded that. This sentiment is commonly stated, particulaly when discussing homosexuality, but I think it oftentimes gives a mistaken view of sin. No need to derail this thread but it might be good for another discussion.

Sin is sin and while all sin is not "deadly sin"....

...All sexual sins ARE deadly sins.

...This simply means my lusting after a woman is not any less a sin than a homosexual lusting after after their own sex.

That's what I mean by that.

1 Cor 6,8

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

Strong's / Effeminate

1) soft, soft to the touch

2) metaph. in a bad sense

a) effeminate

1) of a catamite

2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man

3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness

4) of a male prostitute

In our modern language the above describes a queer, faq, etc.

Nearly EVERYONE like sex, be they gay or straight...

...Therefore a practicing homosexual is in as bad of shape as a practicing fornicator.

...I know MANY gay people, I work with many gay people.

...My Boss is a gay woman who lives with what she calls her "wife".

...They go to a 'gay church' where the pastor is 'gay'.

I've not been there as of yet but I have a feeling the folks that go to that church are programmed there to believe they are "OK" - the way I see it they would 1st have to be de-programmed that what they are doing is wrong.

I lived with my wife before I got married and when my Priest found out he literally attacked me, in public at my favorit place to eat - can you imagine what he would have done if he found out I was living with a man and pretending it was my wife!

[doug yowell]

It's true that God doesn't see all sins in exactly the same way. All sin is sin and all sin unrepented of can separate the sinner from God, yet there are some sins that are worse in God's eyes than others. For instance, it is obvious that David's sin against Bathsheba and her husband was more grevious than other sins that David had committed. Similarly, it should be obvious that the attempted rape of the angels at Sodom was worse in God's eyes than some other sins.

Gustave's main point, though, I think, was that since we ourselves are sinners, we have no right to judge some sins as making other people beyond God's love and salvation. I'm sure we all agree with him on that.

Yes, wholeheartedly.

[Igakusei]

I've not been there as of yet but I have a feeling the folks that go to that church are programmed there to believe they are "OK" - the way I see it they would 1st have to be de-programmed that what they are doing is wrong.

At least you understand that churches program people. That's a step in the right direction.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

I've not been there as of yet but I have a feeling the folks that go to that church are programmed there to believe they are "OK" - the way I see it they would 1st have to be de-programmed that what they are doing is wrong.

At least you understand that churches program people. That's a step in the right direction.

Most churches do - The Catholic Church simply teaches a person to use reason and logic...

...And they can find endless Catholic truths in Scripture after that.

[Parade Orange]

all healthy men struggle with sexual integrity to some extent.

some are more successful than others

it comes out in millions of ways and on dozens of levels

its we a thing we men dont talk about which feeds the beast

there is a book called EVERYMANS BATTLE by Steve Arturburn and Fred Stoeker

Steve is part of NEWLIFE.COM a ministry that is for wounded men and women ministering scripturally

with a host of resourses around the country and tons of wisdom from the Bible unlike u ever have heard

they run a call in radio show everyday u can also podcast(i do ) or watch on the internet

Fred Stoeker was on CELEBRATE RECOVERY a few seasons back on 3ABN with CHERIE PETERS

[John317]

most of it. :-)

[John317]

Fred Stoeker was on CELEBRATE RECOVERY a few seasons back on 3ABN with CHERIE PETERS

I'll have to watch that. I only recently started getting 3abn on my computer.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

If you're heterosexual, do you feel comfortable worshiping with someone you know or suspect is a practicing gay person?

Uh, yes. I don't check or ask if the singles in my church are gay, straight or what ever. I don's check to see if all the married couples are 'faithful'. In other words I don't check on anyone and if they are comfortable with me being a practicing 'sinner' then I am just as comfortable with them. We are all on a journey at different 'speeds'.

Just not an issue with me at all, after all, they are in my family and work place!

[John317]

Quote:

If you're heterosexual, do you feel comfortable worshiping with someone you know or suspect is a practicing gay person?

Uh, yes. I don't check or ask if the singles in my church are gay, straight or what ever. I don's check to see if all the married couples are 'faithful'.

Of course you don't ask people.

But have you ever looked at someone and known (or thought you knew) they were gay? I think everyone has done this at one time or another.

As a [non-practicing] gay person, I can tell you that we can usually tell. And I know many straight persons who are pretty good at identifying gay people, too.

So I am asking about people who you have reason to believe are gay and people whom you know are practicing gays.

But it sounds like you are saying that you wouldn't treat such a person any differently than you treat anyone else. I assume that means you would do what you could to make them feel welcome.

I would be interested in knowing if you believe most of the members in your local church would do the same as you do in relationship to welcoming gay people in your church.

[John317]

Just not an issue with me at all, after all, they are in my family and work place!

Do they go to the SDA church? Have they ever?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

I've not been there as of yet but I have a feeling the folks that go to that church are programmed there to believe they are "OK" - the way I see it they would 1st have to be de-programmed that what they are doing is wrong.

At least you understand that churches program people. That's a step in the right direction.

All humans are programed by something.We've been designed/programed that way. Even you,Ig.

[Dr. Shane]

I think ministering to gay people requires more than just being nice. Our church invited a "reformed" gay man to do a weekend seminar at our church and it was well attended. I am sure most people at our church would treat a known gay person very nice. However gay people tend to have been hurt so bad emotionally and suffered so much rejection that a person really needs to go above and beyond to make them know they are welcome and wanted.

[CoAspen]

Like I said, I don't know. But based on national statistics and knowing that Denver has a high percent, I would suspect there are gays within our local church. We did have a couple of ladies who were members of our church and it made no difference to me, one was a class leader! I simply see no value in categorizing people. Don't know if my aunt was ever a member of the church. One partner her whole life.

[Parade Orange]

im looking at my SDA year book

8th grade class

39 kids

8 kids gay all out of cloest

all SDA families

1 i supect is gay not out of closet

1 died of AIDS

30,000 population at the time

im not talking about in other grades

its everywhere on our churches

and its a real issue

and THEIR CHURCH are FIXATED on their sex lives

GOD HELP US

[doug yowell]

im looking at my SDA year book

8th grade class

39 kids

8 kids gay all out of cloest

all SDA families

1 i supect is gay not out of closet

1 died of AIDS

30,000 population at the time

im not talking about in other grades

its everywhere on our churches

and its a real issue

and THEIR CHURCH are FIXATED on their sex lives

GOD HELP US

I knew two guys from the class below me who came out gay. Both died from aids. What wasted lives. Neither wanted to belong to a church that didn't accept homosexual behavior. No one dumped on them. They both came from dedicated Christian families.One's dad was the most Godly man I ever worked with.He was devastated when he found out but never stopped loving his son.Never treated him like a subhuman.Invited him to church on many occasions.Many church members were praying for him. Hard to blame the church for that.