SDA doctrine compared to Catholic Doctrine

[Overaged]

That EGW quote doesn't mean that the Apocrypha is inspired or should be a part of our the Protestant Bible.

It does contain many good things, but that doesn't mean it was inspired of God. It also contains much that is false.

You'll notice Ellen White never again mentioned the Aprocrypha.

Correct; and there is a reason, a good reason why she advised that we become familiar with the Apocrypha.

[jasd]

>>It also contains much that is false.<<

Indeed. We must be careful when reading many books. Even the Gospels cannot agree on the number of days that passed after Jesus Christ’s utterance of certain sayings – before ascending the Mt of Transfiguration. Six?—or eight? I suppose that “about” eight may be forgiving.

>>You'll notice Ellen White never again mentioned the Aprocrypha.<<

Yeah, I know. It was probably, umm, too Catholic, eh? [/kidding]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Our Bibles, for the most part, contained the Apocrypha until 1926 when it was finally left out of future printings - at the behest of the British and American Bible Societies.

Don't know that they should have been the arbiters...

>>Not true. It was taken out of our Bibles long before<<

Numbers, eh? Even the Apostles couldn’t get them straight. So, more Bibles – less Bibles... but a century here and a century there (1926 v 1826) and pretty soon we’re talking Big numbers...

Even the book of Daniel contained Apocryphal chapters – until they settled out.

>>do have some good, beautiful parts.<<

Yeah, like using the smoke of a fish gall to cure cataracts. Cool. Kool. Wonder if it works?—mebbe, those guys in those days knew weird stuff – like floating axe heads, etc.

[John317]

On another thread some time back, we had this same topic for a discussion. Redwood brought it up, I believe. In any case, what we found was that the reference to the Apocrypha occurs in a pamphlet in which James White quoted some of the books because they reminded him of descriptions given by Ellen White concerning her visions.

It's probably relevant that the Bible owned by James and Ellen White contained the Apocrypha. (All KJV Bibles published before 1826 contained the Apocrypha.)

From that time to the end of her life, she never again advised people to study or read the Apocrypha. I think that fact alone says a lot about whether she believed the SDA church should view the Apocrypha as inspired by God.

[John317]

>>You'll notice Ellen White never again mentioned the Apocrypha.<<

Yeah, I know. It was probably, umm, too Catholic, eh? [/kidding]

I think it's interesting to conjecture why Ellen White never referred to the Apocrypha again.

I believe the reason is that she realized that her statement could be-- and almost certainly would be- misunderstood. She didn't mean that people should now begin studying the entire Apocrypha as if it was inspired by God, and I think that's what she feared many people would believe she intended on the basis of her statement.

[John317]

She made this statement in 1850. For her very early work did she already have assistants writing down and preserving accurately what she stated at the time?

James White was her main assistant in the early days. At the first, she would tell him her dream and he would write it down, and then she would make corrections or additions and approve it.

Some Bible scholars believe Peter's letters were written somewhat the same way, especially Second Peter.

[John317]

Even the book of Daniel contained Apocryphal chapters until they settled out.

Show the evidence that the Apocryphal section of Daniel-- the song of the three worthies-- was a part of the original book.

[skyblue888]

The RCC claims that their own "Magesterium" (Cardinals and popes) has infallible ability to interpret scripture and create doctrine.

All churches have their own Magesterium - even SDAs. But we do not teach that it is our Magesterium that defines or creates doctrine.

Thus Ted Wilson does not proclaim his own views on doctrine as if they are by virtue of his saying them "ex Cathedra" - binding on all SDAs.

in Christ,

Bob

_______________

What did the Lord mean by this, then, in regard to us:

"The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear. It is a curse wherever and by whomsoever it is exercised. This lording it over God's heritage will create such a disgust of man's jurisdiction that a state of insubordination will result." T.M.361.

Is this not following in the track of Romanism?

sky

_______

No.

doug yowell

________

We may say "no" but the Lord says "yes" for under that subtitle The High-Handed Power where this statement was taken from and which continues on the next page we read, bottom of the page, "They are following in the track of Romanism." And the next page begins with the title In The Track Of Romanism and in the very first paragraph we read, "The devisings for forcing men to follow the prescriptions of other men are instituting an order of things that overrides sympathy, justice, and the love of God. Moral influence and personal responsibility are throdden underfoot." A couple sentences down we read, "Rule, rule, has been their course of action."

This is following in the track of Romanism whether we agree or not. The Lord says so. This same order of things is the order of things that is still prevailing today.

On page 360 we read, "They were determined to bring the individuals to their terms. They would rule or ruin. There will be no material change until a decided movement is made to bring in a different order of things." p.360 (1895)

This is the change for which the Lord had called for many times and many years ago: "What we need now is a reorganization. We need to begin at the foundation and to build upon a different principle." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference, p.25.

That change never came.

sky

[Overaged]

We may say "no" but the Lord says "yes" for under that subtitle The High-Handed Power where this statement was taken from and which continues on the next page we read, bottom of the page, "They are following in the track of Romanism." And the next page begins with the title In The Track Of Romanism and in the very first paragraph we read, "The devisings for forcing men to follow the prescriptions of other men are instituting an order of things that overrides sympathy, justice, and the love of God. Moral influence and personal responsibility are throdden underfoot." A couple sentences down we read, "Rule, rule, has been their course of action."

This is following in the track of Romanism whether we agree or not. The Lord says so. This same order of things is the order of things that is still prevailing today.

On page 360 we read, "They were determined to bring the individuals to their terms. They would rule or ruin. There will be no material change until a decided movement is made to bring in a different order of things." p.360 (1895)

This is the change for which the Lord had called for many times and many years ago: "What we need now is a reorganization. We need to begin at the foundation and to build upon a different principle." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference, p.25.

That change never came.

sky

Hey sky; I don't mean anything personal here; but after reading your last few posts on this general idea of following in the tracks of Romanism; I am left with the impression that you have taken a point that is true; and stretched it a little too far.

The paragraphs/sentences you are quoting here as "proof" that the SDA Church is "following in the tracks of Romanism;" cannot possibly be applied to the whole church, or to all leaders in general; in all ages. If you read a little before/after those great quotes you are mentioning, it is apparent that Ellen White was pointing to specific individuals; and not the church as a whole.

It is out of context to suggest otherwise.

[doug yowell]

.

Hey sky; I don't mean anything personal here; but after reading your last few posts on this general idea of following in the tracks of Romanism; I am left with the impression that you have taken a point that is true; and stretched it a little too far.

Yup, that's what I was thinking. The organizational structure of the SDA church,while sharing similarities with that of the RCC is not evil either by virtue of it's structure or it's use by Catholicism. Besides,as Bob has pointed out, there are also major differences between the two.

[Overaged]

Yup, that's what I was thinking. The organizational structure of the SDA church,while sharing similarities with that of the RCC is not evil either by virtue of it's structure or it's use by Catholicism. Besides,as Bob has pointed out, there are also major differences between the two.

[skyblue888]

Bob, Doug & Over, and all who are reading this post, no matter how we slice it, the present order of things is antagonistic to Gospel Order and this has been made crystal clear in the Testimonies.

A revival of primitive faith and godliness means a return to the divine order of organization as shown in the book of Acts. The Early Church had no structure as we know it today with a "president at the top," hierarchy, by-laws, resolutions, man's rules and regulations and prescriptions, man's elections. This order of things is after men's contitutions, men's systems of government. I am afraid that this present order of things is here to stay even until Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven.

And that is why in the Testimonies we are told that "When light goes forth to lighten the earth, instead of coming to the help of the Lord, they will want to bind about His work to meet their narrow ideas. Let me tell you that the Lord will work in this last work in a manner very much out of the common order of things and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning." T.M.300.

Please read the above with the following words in mind, words that were penned in 1907: "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men." T.M.481.

This has been our legacy ever since.

So if there is no decided change, the Lord will have to by-pass those who love their own way and forsake the way of the Lord (T.M.468) and He will finish His work through men and women who are not too learned or too wise to believe just what He says.

sky

[Overaged]

Bob, Doug & Over, and all who are reading this post, no matter how we slice it, the present order of things is antagonistic to Gospel Order and this has been made crystal clear in the Testimonies.

This has been our legacy ever since.

So if there is no decided change, the Lord will have to by-pass those who love their own way and forsake the way of the Lord (T.M.468) and He will finish His work through men and women who are not too learned or too wise to believe just what He says.

sky

Many people prefer to think of themselves as special messengers for the end times to God's people, hacking through all of God's appointed agencies of work for the church, in favor of this one, over-riding theme; making it appear by snippets and half-quotes, that things are just as they depict.

This is not how things are. And further; your statements about this are becoming more out of context with each post.

When I have time; I will deal with what you are saying in more detail.

[Overaged]

Please read the above with the following words in mind, words that were penned in 1907: "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men." T.M.481.

This has been our legacy ever since.

[doug yowell]

Bob, Doug & Over, and all who are reading this post, no matter how we slice it, the present order of things is antagonistic to Gospel Order and this has been made crystal clear in the Testimonies.

A revival of primitive faith and godliness means a return to the divine order of organization as shown in the book of Acts. The Early Church had no structure as we know it today with a "president at the top," hierarchy, by-laws, resolutions, man's rules and regulations, man's elections. This order of things is after men's contitutions, men's systems of government. I am afraid that this present order of things is here to stay even until Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven.

Sounds like your trying to promote a view that any organizational structure is antagonstic. Yes? Acts 15 is an example of why certain hierarchy,by-laws,resolutions, rules and regulations, and elections were necessary in the early church. Even a primitive study of Paul's letters in addition to the situation in Acts 6, reveals the need for organization and hierarchy. Heaven itself has an angelic hierarchy (archangel).It is not the presence of structure itself that is ungodly. So what so you find objectionable about the present SDA system?

Don't forget that the SDA church organized in 1863 with an official name and a duely elected president who shared the same last name as the prophet you've been quoting from.

[skyblue888]

Earlier I posted this: A revival of primitive faith and godliness means a return to the divine order of organization as shown in the book of Acts. The Early Church had no structure as we know it today with a "president at the top," hierarchy, by-laws, man's resolutions and plans and methods and man's rules and regulations and prescriptions and elections. This order of things is after men's constitutions, men's systems of government. I am afraid that this present order of things is here to stay even until Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven.

And that is why in the Testimonies we are told that "When light goes forth to lighten the earth, instead of coming to the help of the Lord, they will want to bind about His work to meet their narrow ideas. Let me tell you that the Lord will work in this last work in a manner very much out of the common order of things and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning." T.M.300.

Please read the above with the following words in mind, words that were penned in 1907: "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue your faith will soon become extinct."" T.M.481.

_______

The statements I have quoted, so far, are no mere "snippets" or "half-quotes" as Overaged would have it. The 1901 and 1903 General Conference Bulletins clearly reveal that the present order of things is antagonistic to divine order just as the catholic order is. When the Lord says that we were following in the track of Romanism He meant it and anyone who (I don't care who he might be) dares to say that these words do not mean what the Lord is saying might end up calling light darkness and darkness light.

The spirit of domination is rife among us. (T.M.362) Position has made men gods, kings and rulers in our midst:

"Organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of God, will work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men; and fraud and guile will bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God. Whatever in our practice is not as open as day belongs to the methods of the prince of evil. His methods are practiced even among Seventh-day Adventists who claim to have advanced truth. If men resist the warnings the Lord sends them, they become even leaders in evil practice; such men assume to exercise the prerogatives of God--they presume to do that which God Himself will not do in seeking to control the minds of men. They introduce their own methods and plans, and through their misconceptions of God they weaken the faith of others in the truth, and bring in false principles that will work like leaven to taint and corrupt our institutions and churches." T.M.366.

Bottom of page 359, we read, "At the center of the work matters are being shaped so that every other institution is following in the same course. And the General Conference is itself becoming corrupted with wrong sentiments and principles.

I have been shown that the Jewish nation were not brought suddenly into their condition of thought and practice. From generation to generation they were working on false theories, carrying out principles opposed to the truth, and combining with their religion thoughts and plans that were the product of human minds. Human inventions were made supreme.

The holy principles that God has given are represented as the sacred fire, but common fire has been used in place of the sacred. Plans contrary to truth and righteousness are introduced in a subtle manner on the plea that this must be done, and that must be done, because it is for the advancement of the cause of God. But it is the devising of men that leads to oppression, injustice, and wickedness."

T.M.359,360.

Hence the warning in 1907:

"The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

Sadly, history shows that this order of things has been allowed to continue to this day for there has been no decided movement ever since to bring in a different order of things which would be in harmony with the 1901 reformatory steps that were then adopted but reversed in 1903.

sky

[skyblue888]

[doug yowell]

"The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

Sadly, history shows that this order of things has been allowed to continue to this day for there has been no decided movement ever since to bring in a different order of things which would be in harmony with the 1901 reformatory steps that were then adopted but reversed in 1903.

sky

Ok, you basically talked around my questions and points so I'll ask in another way. What would that new order of things look like? How would the basic structure of the church be different once it had been returned to the Acts model? What structural aspects need changing?

[skyblue888]

Doug, Why do you ask? I have provided this information already, more than once, from the 1901 and 1903 General Conference Bulletins. Does your question imply that you have never seen these posts?

sky

[Overaged]

The statements I have quoted, so far, are no mere "snippets" or "half-quotes" as Overaged would have it. The 1901 and 1903 General Conference Bulletins clearly reveal that the present order of things is antagonistic to divine order just as the catholic order is. When the Lord says that we were following in the track of Romanism He meant it and anyone who (I don't care who he might be) dares to say that these words do not mean what the Lord is saying might end up calling light darkness and darkness light.

The spirit of domination is rife among us. (T.M.362) Position has made men gods, kings and rulers in our midst:

[skyblue888]

"Jesus gave sanction to the authority of His organized church and placed Saul in connection with His appointed agencies on earth. Christ had now a church as His representative on earth, and to it belonged the work of directing the repentant sinner in the way of life." {AA 122.2}

quoted by Overaged

__________________

The "organized church" spoken of here is the church of the Apostles and their converts which was patterned after God's order. There was no "president" in that church except Christ Himself who was the invisible Head of that church. That church had not put God aside to adopt the devisings of men. That church was built upon the true foundation. It was not depending upon man or controlled by man.

sky

______________________

"Many have an idea that they are responsible to Christ alone for their light and experience, independent of His recognized followers on earth. Jesus is the friend of sinners, and His heart is touched with their woe. He has all power, both in heaven and on earth; but He respects the means that He has ordained for the enlightenment and salvation of men; He directs sinners to the church, which He has made a channel of light to the world. {AA 122.3}

Like I said sky...out of context....

Overaged

________________

Again this statement refers to the order of primitive faith and godliness, as opposed to the "established church" which is opposed to Gospel Order. The Apostles and their converts were joined to the Head and were actuated by the Head. This is to be the experience of all who make it their lifebusiness to look to Jesus and accept His merits which it is their privilege to claim.

Are you suggesting that the present order of things which is the 1903 order of organization, is the counterpart of the church of the Apostles and their converts?

If you are, then you are using the above quotes out of context.

sky

[skyblue888]

At the present time there is the "established church" which is antagonistic to Gospel Order and the "little church" which is composed of those who are joined to the Head and are actuated by the Head. It is this church that God will be leading just as He was leading the "little church" composed of Jesus and His disciples.

It is not the "established church" that is antagonistic to Gospel Order that will appear to fall but the "little church" within the "established church" composed of the humble few who shall be joined to the Head. It is this church that will appear to fall but will not fall.

sky

[skyblue888]

THE 1901 PRINCIPLE OF SELF-GOVERNMENT.

"God's organization must come from the Head, which is Jesus Christ, the Head of the church; and it reaches to the individual. Now see the step that was taken in General Conference today. I want you to see how certainly that can never stop until it has reached each individual and brought him face to face with God, to stand there alone only with God. There was presented today, and endorsed, an appeal for local self-government in a certain place. Very good. And then it was said here that that was to be adopted in other parts. Very good. And when that district shall be organized there will be a local self-governing district; but the same process must go farther--each conference must be a self-governing local conference, and each church must be a local self-governing church, and each individual must be a local self-governing individual...

"But no man in this world can be a self-governing individual except as God in Christ is his Head, and the man is governed by the power of God. The only self-government, true self-government, in this world is a man standing in the liberty wherewith Jesus Christ has made him free, master of his worst self and living in the divine self, which is Jesus Christ. Then he has met the enmity, the evil, and has it underfoot; and there he stands in the heaven born liberty with which God has made him free, a free, self-governing individual, as God made him to be in the beginning, and as He makes him to be when He makes him again...

"Now do you see that this step we took today never can stop short of that? Is not that plain enough? Then, brethren, the thing for each one in this conference to do is to get there just as quickly as possible. Each one, then, must have set up in himself, and must be in himself, a local self-government, to the glory of God. But no man can ever do that, as I have said, except by the power of God in him; and no man can do that and remain a local self-governing man except he stands alone with God, apart from everyone else, and everything else, in the wide universe. Now that does not separate him from all other people. Our truest unity with other people is our whole loneliness with God. Our truest fellowship, our sincerest love, our tenderest sympathy, reaching out to all people is found only in standing absolutely alone, separate from all other things, with God...

"I say again, the step taken should never stop until every Seventh-day Adventist is brought face to face with God. And for what shall we be brought to face to face with God? To find our bearings, which we have been exhorted to find. And having found our bearings, then let God in Christ be the Head, and the grand Organizer." A.T. Jones, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.103.

to be continued

*In 1896 this Testimony had been sent: "The people to whom God has entrusted eternal interests, the depositories of truth pregnant with eternal results, the keepers of light that is to illuminate the whole world, have lost their bearings." T.M.397.

[skyblue888]

"In our bodies, which we have ever with us, and to which we were directed to-day,--why is it that in all this exhortation of the Spirit of prophecy to reorganization, health reform comes in every time? Why is it, as to-day it was clearly cited, "I am fearfully and wonderfully made"? --It is because in this organization in which we ourselves are, our bodies which God has made us, He has presented before us an everlasting illustration of the organization of the church. And it is exceeding carelessness, and from that, blindness, that cannot see the organization of the church, what it must be, when every day each one carries about with him, and is constantly using, this body, which is composed of many members.

Every one of these members is actuated by the head; and no two of them ever come into quarrel, ever have any difference of opinion, act in contrary ways. Or if they should by any means act in contrary ways, as the hands do to break a string, it is only apparently; they are actually pulling together.

You simply cannot have schism in the body which God has organized from the head. So then, since God calls for re-organization, let not a soul here be afraid that there is going to be confusion, or schism, or anything of the kind. There is no danger whatever except among those who hold not to the head.

Who is the church?--Those who look to the Head; those who seek the Head; those who are joined to the Head. 1 Cor.6:15,17.

Then there is no difference how many members there may be, though we are only one on one side of the earth, and another on the other side of the earth, we two members will move together, and act together, because the Head Christ Jesus, the Lord, is organizing both. His will actuates both. He is the One who is doing that in both." 1901 General Conference Bulletin, pp.41,42.

[Overaged]

So before I say anymore; I have two questions:

1/ Are you saying that YOU belong to this "little remnant within a remnant?"

2/ When are you going to start using the Bible to prove your point, and stop using Ellen White's writings in a selective, biased way that she would never condone?

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: jasd

>>The Roman Catholic Church also accepts the Apocrypha.<<

You probably forgot:

... I saw that the Apocrypha was the hidden book, and that the wise of these last days should understand it. I saw that the Bible was the standard Book, that will judge us at the last day. EGW; 16 Manuscript Release Page 34

That EGW quote doesn't mean that the Apocrypha is inspired or should be a part of our the Protestant Bible.

It does contain many good things, but that doesn't mean it was inspired of God. It also contains much that is false.

You'll notice Ellen White never again mentioned the Aprocrypha.

Indeed - she does not quote from the Apocrypha. And the above text is not from anything Ellen White ever wrote. It is from what others claim to "remember" about what she said one one occasion while in vision. And true to form and style - that quote above gives you no context at all.

But we do know that there is no letter, or sermon, or lecture, or book or even a 1 page article published by Ellen White upholding the Apocrypha.

in Christ,

Bob