Esau have I hated?

[skyblue888]

The Scriptures in general. :)

[miz3]

The Scriptures in general.

Can you sight specifics where I have not "read" the Scriptures correctly?

In such cases have you offered the "correct reading"?

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

Romans 9:13

(13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

1 John 4:8

(8) He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

I just want to get people's thoughts on these 2 texts. 1 says that Esau was hated the other says that God is love.

Romans 9 is quoting the book of Malachi written centuries after Esau's death where the names "Jacob" and "Esau" are used to represent the nation and history of Edom and Israel.

Edom chose idolatry and was rejected by God even though God made provision for them in Israel telling Israel to show them kindness for they were kindred.

Israel on the other hand chose to worship the one true God of creation - who made the world in a literal 7 day creation week.

Thus it is an example free will choice - and the following "blessings" vs "curses".

However many of our Calvinist friends like to "pretend" that God said to Rebecca -- the mother of Esau and Jacob - "I hate Esau".

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

Romans 9:13

(13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

1 John 4:8

(8) He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

I just want to get people's thoughts on these 2 texts. 1 says that Esau was hated the other says that God is love.

Romans 9 is quoting the book of Malachi written centuries after Esau's death where the names "Jacob" and "Esau" are used to represent the nation and history of Edom and Israel.

Edom chose idolatry and was rejected by God even though God made provision for them in Israel telling Israel to show them kindness for they were kindred.

Israel on the other hand chose to worship the one true God of creation - who made the world in a literal 7 day creation week.

Thus it is an example free will choice - and the following "blessings" vs "curses".

However many of our Calvinist friends like to "pretend" that God said to Rebecca -- the mother of Esau and Jacob - "I hate Esau".

[BobRyan]

Just as it is written -- refers to "the text that was written" - which is in Malachi 1 - centuries after both Esau and Jacob were long dead.

Only THEN do we find the statement "Jacob have I loved" or "Esau have I loved less".

For in Malachi 1 - the names are used as labels for the entire history of the nation of Israel and the nation of Edom.

You have to go read the actual text that Paul refers to when HE says "Just as it is written" - to get the full meaning.

hence the "Just as it was written" comment by Paul.

I am good with paying attention to the details of Romans 9. But your insistence that we turn a blind eye to them, well... not so much.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Paul begins the book of Romans claiming in Romans 2:11-13 that God is NOT arbitrary - no partial or biased or arbitrary act on God's part for Calvinism to hang its hat on.

Paul deliberately appeals to these images and lessons from the OT - so that the informed reader will get the point quickly. Paul is not simply "making stuff up" as so many have imagined it on behalf of calvinism.

So it is not too surprising that Paul draws his reader's attention to the "Potter and the clay" lesson of Jeremiah 18.

Quote:

Jer 18

1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying:

2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.”

3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel.

4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!

7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.

9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

in Christ,

Bob

[miz3]

Just as it is written -- refers to "the text that was written" - which is in Malachi 1 - centuries after both Esau and Jacob were long dead.

Only THEN do we find the statement "Jacob have I loved" or "Esau have I loved less".

For in Malachi 1 - the names are used as labels for the entire history of the nation of Israel and the nation of Edom.

You have to go read the actual text that Paul refers to when HE says "Just as it is written" - to get the full meaning.

hence the "Just as it was written" comment by Paul.

I am good with paying attention to the details of Romans 9. But your insistence that we turn a blind eye to them, well... not so much.

in Christ,

Bob

The Scripture does not fit your preconceived notions so you twist them to fit. I am not here to try and force you so you can believe what ever feels good to you even though it be wrong.

[miz3]

BobRyan in your mind Romans chapter nine can only be interpreted as either supporting "free will choice" or supporting "predestination" Calvinism.

Since you correctly cannot bring yourself to support Calvinism you then erroneously jump from the frying pan into the fire of "free will choice".

However, you missed that there just might be another option open to readers of Romans chapter nine. It is evident that you are not interested in this other option so you cling to your erroneous "free will choice" option which clearly does not fit Romans chapter nine and forces you to twist and mangle the Word of God to fit your "free will choice" theory.

You also mistakenly categorize anyone who does not agree with you as a Calvinist or Predestinarian.

I am neither a "free will choice" supporter nor can I support "predestination-Calvinism" either. The reason is that neither of these theories is what Paul is saying in Romans chapter nine.

[miz3]

Humans are not "free moral agents".

You don't sin because you chose to sin. You sin because you cannot help it, sin is what you are.

A dog cannot chose to act like a cat. Why? Because a dog is a dog. The dog cannot help acting like a dog because s/he is a dog.

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Jeremiah 13:23.

That is a clear enough passage.

No free moral agency. We humans do what we do because of what we are. It is impossible for us to do good (not because we "choose") but because of what we are.

[doug yowell]

. Miz,can you explain why:

1) God is just for hating Esau before he had done anything wrong?

2) Why God is merciful for loving Jacob before he had done anything right?

3)If "God is Love" how He can hate?

1. The answer is in verse eleven when it says, "in order that God's purpose in election might stand". That is why?

2. Same answer by looking at verse eleven.

3. Because God has both attributes. Humans have the same attributes. They are capable of both Love and Hate. Here are some Bible texts that show that God does indeed "hate".

a. Leviticus 26:17.

b. 2Samuel 7:16-17.

c. Psalm 11:5.

d. Proverbs 6:16-19.

e. Hosea 9:15.

f. Malachi 1:1-3.

g. Romans 9:13 quoted above.

h. Revelation 2:6.

1) What you've done is to assert that God is just and merciful just because He says He is but you haven't shown why hating someone for no other reason than He wanted to was just, or how loving someone for no other reason than He wanted to was merciful. If Jacob had done nothing wrong, then why is God being merciful to him? Mercy implies that someone has had a wrong granted clemency. Isn't this the whole message of the gospel? "For God so loved the world...(but not Esau!!)that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever(but not Jacob??) believeth in Him should not perish..." The same definition applies to Esau. If Esau had done nothing wrong then why is God just in hating him after telling us the hating someone without a cause is the same as murdering him? Is the law of God not binding on Him? Double standard? Is God just an arbitrary machine whose mind is already made up and we just the pathetic cyborgs?

[doug yowell]

I am neither a "free will choice" supporter nor can I support "predestination-Calvinism" either. The reason is that neither of these theories is what Paul is saying in Romans chapter nine.

I've asked you before what your third option is. Please explain it to us.

[doug yowell]

Humans are not "free moral agents".

You don't sin because you chose to sin. You sin because you cannot help it, sin is what you are.

A dog cannot chose to act like a cat. Why? Because a dog is a dog. The dog cannot help acting like a dog because s/he is a dog.

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Jeremiah 13:23.

That is a clear enough passage.

No free moral agency. We humans do what we do because of what we are. It is impossible for us to do good (not because we "choose") but because of what we are.

This is not what most "free willers" mean by the term "free moral agent". Most everyone recognizes that we by nature cannot do right or resist sin. The Bible is very clear on this.It's a wrong caricature of the term.

[miz3]

What you've done is to assert that God is just and merciful just because He says He is but you haven't shown why hating someone for no other reason than He wanted to was just, or how loving someone for no other reason than He wanted to was merciful. If Jacob had done nothing wrong, then why is God being merciful to him? Mercy implies that someone has had a wrong granted clemency. Isn't this the whole message of the gospel? "For God so loved the world...(but not Esau!!)that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever(but not Jacob??) believeth in Him should not perish..." The same definition applies to Esau. If Esau had done nothing wrong then why is God just in hating him after telling us the hating someone without a cause is the same as murdering him? Is the law of God not binding on Him? Double standard? Is God just an arbitrary machine whose mind is already made up and we just the pathetic cyborgs?

God has also demonstrated His "mercy", His "justice", His "hate", His "love", etc.

You are correct that "hating" is the same as "murder".

To answer your question about whether the Law of God is binding on God, the answer is NO, A DECIDED NO.

Why? Is it not then as you say a "double standard"? The answer to that question is also a DECIDE YES.

God is not held to the same Standard as we are. Why?

1. He is the Creator and we are the created. That alone makes the difference.

2. The "life" belongs to God and God gives "that life" to anyone God chooses. Why didn't God create someone else other than you? Because God chose (for whatever reason if any) to create Doug Yowell. God had an infinite number of options but out of those infinite options God chose to create Doug Yowell. God did this because "life" and its granting belongs solely to God and no one else. Thus, God can do what He jolly wants with the Life that God owns.

By the same token God can take that "life" from you anytime God wants to. The "life" does not belong to you. It belongs to God. God by fiat granted you life and God by fiat can take that Life away from you.

God by fiat can create "life" that hates God (Romans nine Pharaoh). And then summarily punish that "life" for disobedience. The problem you have with this line of thought is that it does not "fit YOUR preconception" of God. Your preconception is that God's Love overrides all other aspects of God's attributes. In fact your preconception does not even have room for God to have an attribute called "hate". This preconception is typical of most humans view of God and thus they "create a god that does not actually fit the Bible".

Humans want to limit God in the same way they, the humans, are limited. Except God is just a "super hero" entity with limitations just like us.

God cannot be limited. The Law is not greater than God. God is greater than any Law. God made the Law. God made the Law for us. God did not create the Law for Himself. As David repeatedly points out that the Law is indeed "God's Law" and that David loves to dwell on God's Law.

The Law does not dictate to God how God is to be and to act. The Law of God dictates to you and me (humans) how we are to be bound and to be judged. If God chooses to "Judge" a human apart from that Law as Paul states in Romans chapter nine "who are we to question God?". We are not God's Judge.

3. God is not a "machine". A "machine" is a thoughtless entity. God is a "living" existence.

As we pointed in the previous item God is Life. God owns and operates the Life that is His any way God wants. As Isaiah 55:8-9 point out God is infinitely far above us. How than can we punyiest of puny even begin to question God.

Most humans do not like the idea of an "arbitrary" God so we twist and squirm the Word of God and our human logic so as to "create" our own god that is more "palatable" to us. One that seems to fit our human view of "fairness".

Who is defining the "terms". Are we humans the "definer of terms" or is God the "definer of terms"? Do we humans decide whether God is "fair" or does God decide what is "fair"? Do humans decide how God operates or does God decide how God operates.

If indeed God it is as you say that God would be "inconsistent" what is that to you? What can you do about it? Nothing.

If God is a liar but says that He is not a liar what is that to you? What can you do about it? Nothing.

God can be any way He wants to be.

I know the human response is this, "If God is that way I will refuse to "serve" and "obey" a God like that." Do you think that you a mere human are punishing God by withholding your allegiance? Hell will be filled with humans and the devil who withheld their allegiance because God did not do it their way and did not fit what they thought God should be or what they wanted God to be. You do not have God "over the barrel", God has you a mere human "over the barrel".

Who are you a mere human to tell God what God can and cannot do and be. Paul makes that very point in Romans chapter nine.

It is a point you do not like. OK, you can like it but it is still the FACT. God does what He wants.

God has "mercy on who He has mercy" and God "withholds mercy on who God withholds mercy". So God is arbitrary? What is that to you. God is what He is and whether you or I like it or not is of no consequence. We are just going to have to "live" with it and we will certainly "die" with it.

4. The message of the Gospel is that God is arbitrary. Romans chapter five is totally about how God "arbitrarily" saved us apart from anything that humans were or did. Again, by fiat God redeemed all humanity. Romans chapter five also states that by fiat God declared all humans "cursed" even before those humans existed.

You see the Gospel is not about "humans" which is what we humans like to make it out to be. The Gospel is all about God and what God does and is. God merely "uses" humans which God created for this purpose, to demonstrate God's great and infinite mercy (as Paul states in Romans nine). It also demonstrates God's great and infinite Love.

You want to make God's Love for us "based on the human merit". This is not Biblical. God loves not because we "merit" His Love but because by fiat God Loves us regardless of anything we do. You want to make it a "merit system" the Bible does not support Salvation by the Merit System.

Humans want the "merit system" because then it brings glory to the human and the human has "legitimately" earned the right to God's Love, earned the right to God's Salvation, earned the right to have God's Life, earned the right to ......

The "merit system" is all about human glory.

The Bible and all that God is and does is about God and everything God.

Thus, God raises up Pharaoh as Romans chapter nine points out in order for God to demonstrate to Himself and His Creation how great He is (God's Glory only). God likes watching Himself do great and marvelous things. It brings God great joy.

The argument you and I are having boils down to this:

God Centric vs human centric.

[skyblue888]

Humans are not "free moral agents".

You don't sin because you chose to sin. You sin because you cannot help it, sin is what you are.

A dog cannot chose to act like a cat. Why? Because a dog is a dog. The dog cannot help acting like a dog because s/he is a dog.

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Jeremiah 13:23.

That is a clear enough passage.

No free moral agency. We humans do what we do because of what we are. It is impossible for us to do good (not because we "choose") but because of what we are.

Correct, but it doesn't end there. We cannot of ourselves do what the law demands because we are sinners but we can choose to believe that the merits of Christ are sufficient to present before the Father in our behalf in order to become one with Christ and then we become free moral agents for Christ works in us both to will and to do God's good pleasure. Phi.2:13.

Right?

sky

[doug yowell]

[You are correct that "hating" is the same as "murder".

To answer your question about whether the Law of God is binding on God, the answer is NO, A DECIDED NO.

Why? Is it not then as you say a "double standard"? The answer to that question is also a DECIDE YES.

God is not held to the same Standard as we are. Why?

1. He is the Creator and we are the created. That alone makes the difference.

This is, I believe the crux of the matter on which we are divided. It is the crux of understanding who God is and what He is really like. If we are subject to a standard to which God Himself does not follow, though He Himself describes Himself as being so,there exists no such thing as godliness and never any hope of real oneness with Divinity. This denies all of the principles in the Bible that connect earth with heaven ("the kingdom of heaven is like...")This also clearly accuses God of being the opposite of what He claims to be.`

[doug yowell]

The Bible and all that God is and does is about God and everything God.

Thus, God raises up Pharaoh as Romans chapter nine points out in order for God to demonstrate to Himself and His Creation how great He is (God's Glory only). God likes watching Himself do great and marvelous things. It brings God great joy.

The argument you and I are having boils down to this:

God Centric vs human centric.

So punishing human beings for doing not only what they cannot help but do but also for what He WILL not help them do,brings God great joy??? And after He has said on so many occasions "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die, and not that he should turn from his ways and live?...I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies therefore turn and live", your answer is YES He does?? Who are we supposed to believe?

[doug yowell]

.

God by fiat can create "life" that hates God (Romans nine Pharaoh). And then summarily punish that "life" for disobedience.

Why didn't He do that when He created Satan ("the father of lies and a murderer from the beginning"--"you were perfect in the day in which you were created until...")and A/E ("in the image of God...")?

[doug yowell]

If indeed God it is as you say that God would be "inconsistent" what is that to you? What can you do about it? Nothing.

If God is a liar but says that He is not a liar what is that to you? What can you do about it? Nothing.

God can be any way He wants to be.

I know the human response is this, "If God is that way I will refuse to "serve" and "obey" a God like that."

No, the human response is "then there is no difference between God and Satan, so what difference does it make how I choose to live my life?"

[doug yowell]

The problem you have with this line of thought is that it does not "fit YOUR preconception" of God. Your preconception is that God's Love overrides all other aspects of God's attributes.

No, I have no preconceptions. Any conception I have of God comes from what He's revealed about Himself in the Bible,including the law which is holy, just,and good,how He has revealed Himself through the life of Jesus,and how He has treated me ("while I was yet a sinner,Christ died for me...).Neither doI think that God's love overrides all other attributes. Since He has revealed His intrinsic nature as being love I conclude that everything that God does springs out of that nature. This includes both mercy and justice. Therefore justice in order to be both just and loving must be consistent with what/who God is not merely what He can(theoritically)do.The guiding principles of both justice are mercy are revealed to us in the Bible as being the outgrowth of who God is and how He operates..."He cannot deny Himself."

[doug yowell]

In fact your preconception does not even have room for God to have an attribute called "hate".

No, I merely understand God's hate in light of His nature and His actions. God's hate is a perfect hatred of sin and what it does to His creation. This automatically rules out His hating Esau for no particular reason since Esau had not yet sinned.

[doug yowell]

[Humans want to limit God in the same way they, the humans, are limited. Except God is just a "super hero" entity with limitations just like us.

Yet God is limited by virtue of His holiness. ..."It is impossible for God to lie" a limitation that you have denied that He has.In fact, you've actually opened that option for Him.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: miz3

In fact your preconception does not even have room for God to have an attribute called "hate".

No, I merely understand God's hate in light of His nature and His actions. God's hate is a perfect hatred of sin and what it does to His creation. This automatically rules out His hating Esau for no particular reason since Esau had not yet sinned.

Amen to that.

sky

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

[You are correct that "hating" is the same as "murder".

To answer your question about whether the Law of God is binding on God, the answer is NO, A DECIDED NO.

Why? Is it not then as you say a "double standard"? The answer to that question is also a DECIDE YES.

God is not held to the same Standard as we are. Why?

1. He is the Creator and we are the created. That alone makes the difference.

This is, I believe the crux of the matter on which we are divided. It is the crux of understanding who God is and what He is really like. If we are subject to a standard to which God Himself does not follow, though He Himself describes Himself as being so,there exists no such thing as godliness and never any hope of real oneness with Divinity. This denies all of the principles in the Bible that connect earth with heaven ("the kingdom of heaven is like...")This also clearly accuses God of being the opposite of what He claims to be.`

We are at least agreed that the crux of the matter in fact all matters is what the human believes about God. This belief affects all other beliefs and also how one sees the Bible and what it says.

God never says that He, God, is subject to God's Law. That is not in the Bible.

God does not claim that He does not kill but God tells us that we humans do not have the right to kill.

God also tells us that it is not our human job to do vengeance (humans are prohibited by law) but God will seek and do vengeance. Thus, in this one instance alone God does NOT adhere to His own Law.

God tells us that we are not to be jealous. Jealousy for humans is a sin. Yet right in the midst of God's own Law God states that He is a Jealous God. Again God makes Laws for us that He Himself does not keep.

I am then correct that God holds us to a Standard that He does not hold Himself too.

In doing this God is NOT CONTRADICTING or the OPPOSITE of what He, God, claims to be. God is very open with us that God is not held to the Standard by which He holds us too.

This specific point alone demonstrates how wrong humans are in their views of God. It is a "human construct" that the leader must abide by his own rules.

That construct might work for human to human relations but it is NOT BIBLICAL when it comes to the God to human relationship.

This is a prime example of humans constructing their relationship with God the same way they construct their relationships among humans themselves.

[skyblue888]

Ellen White was shown that this passage "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated," quoted from the Old Testament by the apostle Paul in Rom.9:13, was a prophecy regarding the character of these two sons of Isaac.

P.P.177: "Jacob and Esau, the twin sons of Isaac, present a striking contrast, both in character and in life. This unlikeness was foretold by the Angel of God before their birth," in these words:

"I have loved you (Jacob), says the Lord. Yet you say, In what way did you love me? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? says the Lord; yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the jackals of the wilderness." Malachi 1:1-3.

That would explain why Jesus said, "How readest thou?"

"Esau and Jacob had alike been instructed in the knowledge of God, and both were free to walk in His commandments and to receive His favor; but they had not both chosen to do this. The two brothers had walked in different ways, and their paths would continue to diverge more and more widely. There was no arbitrary choice on the part of God by which Esau was shut out from the blessings of salvation. The gifts of His grace through Christ are free to all. There is no election but one's own by which any may perish." P.P.207.

sky

The Lord did not directly lay waste Esau's mountains. He was not always able to protect him from the malice and enmity of Satan.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The Bible and all that God is and does is about God and everything God.

Thus, God raises up Pharaoh as Romans chapter nine points out in order for God to demonstrate to Himself and His Creation how great He is (God's Glory only). God likes watching Himself do great and marvelous things. It brings God great joy.

The argument you and I are having boils down to this:

God Centric vs human centric.

So punishing human beings for doing not only what they cannot help but do but also for what He WILL not help them do,brings God great joy??? And after He has said on so many occasions "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die, and not that he should turn from his ways and live?...I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies therefore turn and live", your answer is YES He does?? Who are we supposed to believe?

Where you see "contradiction" I see "unity".

How so you ask?

God raised Pharaoh up and hardened Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh would war against God. God did this as God said in Romans chapter nine to show and demonstrate His Glory and how Great God is. Then God goes and kills Pharaoh and all his "innocent" soldiers who were only following what they thought was right (general statement but individual soldiers may have knowingly done wrong) in the Red Sea.

Then you quote correctly how God does not delight in the destruction of the wicked.

These are two different things.

The killing of Pharaoh and his soldiers in the Red Sea is NOT THE DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED. The "destruction of the wicked is the final solution in which God throws satan, sin, and the wicked in Hell never to rise anymore.

Pharaoh was not thrown into to Hell. Thus, your statements do not match.

Second you are assuming that Pharaoh will not be in Heaven among the Righteous. Where in the Bible does it say that Pharaoh king of Egypt is not going to be in heaven. That is a big assumption on your part.

The fact is Pharaoh could very well be in heaven. After all Pharaoh only did what God wanted him to do.

I am not saying that Pharaoh WILL BE in heaven.

What I am saying is that we just don't know how God will Judge Pharaoh.

You see this is another fatal mistake "free will choicers" make. They tend to assume results based on their preconceived evaluations of "choice". Thus, most Christians assume Pharaoh is going to be lost.

The true FACT is we just don't know.

What we do know is that God used Pharaoh as a "tool" so that God could demonstrate His Greatness in whatever way God wanted to demonstrate His Greatness.

The same is true for you and me. We are nothing more than "tools" for God to demonstrate His Greatness. That is the only human purpose for existence.

We are not here to get our own piece of glory and to demonstrate our own goodness by "choosing" to be God's instruments.