Esau have I hated?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

.

God by fiat can create "life" that hates God (Romans nine Pharaoh). And then summarily punish that "life" for disobedience.

Why didn't He do that when He created Satan ("the father of lies and a murderer from the beginning"--"you were perfect in the day in which you were created until...")and A/E ("in the image of God...")?

Why God handled satan in the way God did you will have to ask God to explain.

The two incidents are different only because one occurred in the "sinless state" and Pharaoh occurred in the "sinful state".

What caused sin to occur in what is clearly a Perfect Creation is beyond our understanding and God does not give us in the Bible or anywhere else the answer to that question.

We can understand why humans sin the "sinful state" and that is because they, humans, are "sinful" and that is what "sinful" does it sins.

Just as an apple tree produces apples because it is an apple tree. The apple tree cannot produce pears. The apple tree can only produce apples. Thus, sinful humans can only produce sin. We don't "choose" to produce sin we do because we are.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

If indeed God it is as you say that God would be "inconsistent" what is that to you? What can you do about it? Nothing.

If God is a liar but says that He is not a liar what is that to you? What can you do about it? Nothing.

God can be any way He wants to be.

I know the human response is this, "If God is that way I will refuse to "serve" and "obey" a God like that."

No, the human response is "then there is no difference between God and Satan, so what difference does it make how I choose to live my life?"

Wrong!

There is a great deal of difference between God and satan.

1. God is the Creator and God is Life. Satan does not have that and so does not have the right to do as satan pleases. God only can do as He pleases because He is God. That is an infinite difference.

2. God decides what happens to you. Satan cannot decide that.

3. God does everything for His Glory, for His Greatness and that ALWAYS, AND I MEAN ALWAYS WORKS OUT FOR THE BEST for those who are "saved by God" (see Romans chapter eight, the "all things work together for good" statement).

Satan's stuff ALWAYS AND I MEAN ALWAYS WORKS OUR FOR THE WORST for humans (the lost).

Again, there is an infinite difference between the "works" of God and the "works" of the devil. In the "free choice" world there may be no difference because everything depends on the "human choice". In this "free choice" world God can only wait around helplessly till the human entity "chooses" then God can act.

That is not being God. God is always 'ACTING' and everything in the Creation reaps the result of God's Action. God is not a passive being holding His Breath waiting for the "great" human entity to act.

Your "free will choice" passive God is not the God of the Bible. Such a passive god is the figment of human imagination and nothing more than an attempt to "glorify" the human and to make the human the pivotal element in the success of God's Kingdom.

That is not glory to God, it is nothing more than glory to the human.

[skyblue888]

miz says, "God raised Pharaoh up and hardened Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh would war against God. God did this as God said in Romans chapter nine to show and demonstrate His Glory and how Great God is. Then God goes and kills Pharaoh and all his "innocent" soldiers who were only following what they thought was right (general statement but individual soldiers may have knowingly done wrong) in the Red Sea."

_______________

Again miz, you just demonstrated that you are reading the Scriptures and thinking as a man. Many do not understand the language of God, the language of Heaven. You are not alone.

The answer lies in the way in which God sets up a ruler as distinct from the ways of men.

If one follows your "thinking as a man" to its logical conclusion, God would have purposefully arranged for men like Nero or Hitler to assume absolute authority and the reigns of terror and the awful atrocities would have to be charged to Him.

sky

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

[Humans want to limit God in the same way they, the humans, are limited. Except God is just a "super hero" entity with limitations just like us.

Yet God is limited by virtue of His holiness. ..."It is impossible for God to lie" a limitation that you have denied that He has.In fact, you've actually opened that option for Him.

God is not limited by any attribute that God possesses. Then God would not be God but just a glorified "super-hero".

Have you not read where it says, "Nothing is impossible for God".

That means "no limitations whatsoever".

We humans may have a hard time understanding what that means but it means only that there are no limitations on God.

If God were limited as you claim then there are things that are "impossible" with God.

Humans are fond of trying to make up scenarios where for God to do one thing makes it a contradiction for God doing something else. Far from demonstrating and proving that God has limitations such "paradoxes" only demonstrate the limitations of the human and the human mind from understanding God.

Such assertions that God is limited is just the human attempt to put God in a box where the human can then fully understand God and what God is all about.

The FACT is humans will never, ever fully know and understand God. Thus, it is not for any human or the whole collective of Creation to declare that God is limited. Humans just don't know God.

In fact there are "NO PARAMETERS AROUND GOD". If God had parameters and limitations then God is not "infinite" which makes God a liar because God states that He is unbounded (nothing impossible with God-texts).

That means there are no "holiness" boundaries, no "love" boundaries, no "mercy" boundaries, no "law" boundaries, no boundaries of any kind, way shape or form.

So string your man made paradoxes together in as big a line as you want, they only demonstrate the great ignorance of the human and the immeasurable inability of the human to know God in His totality.

[doug yowell]

God is not limited by any attribute that God possesses. Then God would not be God but just a glorified "super-hero".

Have you not read where it says, "Nothing is impossible for God".

That means "no limitations whatsoever".

We humans may have a hard time understanding what that means but it means only that there are no limitations on God.

If God were limited as you claim then there are things that are "impossible" with God.

You've just ignored the Scripture which says it is "impossible" for God to lie while choosing to, without Scriptural evidence, assert that it is impossible for Him not to be able to lie. When speaking of salvation Jesus told us that ..."With men it (lying??)is impossible but not with God; but with God all things are possible." How can God claim that "outside (the gates of the New Jerusalem)are ...whoever practices and loves a lie" when He may be the greatest liar of all? If "God cannot be tempted by evil,nor does He Himself tempt anyone" it seems to logically follow that these are things (evil things) that God CANNOT do. You argue that man cannot do righteousness because he is a sinner by nature and then turn around and claim that God can sin by virtue of His nature.How can this be so?These are natural limitations which are strengths not weaknesses.

[doug yowell]

If indeed God it is as you say that God would be "inconsistent" what is that to you? What can you do about it? Nothing.

If God is a liar but says that He is not a liar what is that to you? What can you do about it? Nothing.

God can be any way He wants to be.

I know the human response is this, "If God is that way I will refuse to "serve" and "obey" a God like that." No, the human response is "then there is no difference between God and Satan, so what difference does it make how I choose to live my life?"

Wrong!

There is a great deal of difference between God and satan.

1. God is the Creator and God is Life. Satan does not have that and so does not have the right to do as satan pleases. God only can do as He pleases because He is God. That is an infinite difference.

But,as you've already admitted, they are both liars!!So Satan may have been not lying when he told Eve that it was God who was lying? So which liar should I believe, the one who claims the God is a liar or the One who claims He is not a liar but really is? Or should I believe the One who claims that it is impossible for Him to lie and backs it up with the truth ("I AM the way, the truth, and the lie?")every single time?

[doug yowell]

In fact there are "NO PARAMETERS AROUND GOD". If God had parameters and limitations then God is not "infinite" which makes God a liar because God states that He is unbounded (nothing impossible with God-texts).

That means there are no "holiness" boundaries, no "love" boundaries, no "mercy" boundaries, no "law" boundaries, no boundaries of any kind, way shape or form.

So string your man made paradoxes together in as big a line as you want, they only demonstrate the great ignorance of the human and the immeasurable inability of the human to know God in His totality.

So setting an entire understanding of God on an unshackled by holiness definition demonstrates one's grasp of the Infinite One? "Let him that glorys glory in this,that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord, exercising lovingkindness,judgment,and righteousness in the earth." If a person does not understand these three things how can they glory in the Lord? You argue that might makes right (He is the Creator)He argues that right makes might {"righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne.")"The Lord, the Lord God,merciful and gracious,longsuffering,and abounding in goodness and truth..." This is the glory He has shown to us.

[doug yowell]

Humans are fond of trying to make up scenarios where for God to do one thing makes it a contradiction for God doing something else. Far from demonstrating and proving that God has limitations such "paradoxes" only demonstrate the limitations of the human and the human mind from understanding God.

And your "no paradox needed" gospel simply validates the claim of many that God is indeed a hypocrite,a liar, and no better than any other sinful human, just more powerful.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

God is not limited by any attribute that God possesses. Then God would not be God but just a glorified "super-hero".

Have you not read where it says, "Nothing is impossible for God".

That means "no limitations whatsoever".

We humans may have a hard time understanding what that means but it means only that there are no limitations on God.

If God were limited as you claim then there are things that are "impossible" with God.

You've just ignored the Scripture which says it is "impossible" for God to lie while choosing to, without Scriptural evidence, assert that it is impossible for Him not to be able to lie. When speaking of salvation Jesus told us that ..."With men it (lying??)is impossible but not with God; but with God all things are possible." How can God claim that "outside (the gates of the New Jerusalem)are ...whoever practices and loves a lie" when He may be the greatest liar of all? If "God cannot be tempted by evil,nor does He Himself tempt anyone" it seems to logically follow that these are things (evil things) that God CANNOT do. You argue that man cannot do righteousness because he is a sinner by nature and then turn around and claim that God can sin by virtue of His nature.How can this be so?These are natural limitations which are strengths not weaknesses.

Let us look at this "lying business" for a moment.

“Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness—a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior.”

Titus 1:1-3.

I think Scripture makes abundantly clear that God does NOT LIE! This is a flat out statement.

“Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

John 8:42-47.

Again God in Scripture is very clear. In fact I would assert that Jesus Christ is saying that the sin of lying is as heinous as the sin of murder.

I think we can even be so bold as to assert that God and Jesus Christ are one hundred percent TRUTHFUL ALL THE TIME.

Now in that light what about this incident also taken from Sacred Scripture:

“The LORD said to Samuel, ‘How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king.’

But Samuel said, ‘How can I go? Saul will hear about it and kill me.’

The LORD said, ‘Take a heifer with you and say, “I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.” Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what to do. You are to anoint for me the one I indicate.’

Samuel did what the LORD said. When he arrived at Bethlehem, the elders of the town trembled when they met him. They asked, ‘Do you come in peace?’

Samuel replied, ‘Yes, in peace; I have come to sacrifice to the LORD. Consecrate yourselves and come to the sacrifice with me.’ Then he consecrated Jesse and his sons and invited them to the sacrifice.”

1Samuel 16:1-5.

Here God is commanding Samuel to lie. Now I know the text says that they actually had a sacrifice but the fact remains that is not "really" what the visit from Samuel was about. So is God not a liar when God commands Samuel to lie about the actual truth of the visit to Jesse in order to deceive King Saul? Is this clearly a breaking of the Ten Commandments which make it a mortal sin to "bear false witness?

Yet here in 1Samuel chapter sixteen we have God actually lying and commanding Samuel to lie also.

How can we balance this clear unambiguous lie on the part of God and in addition His command of Samuel to participate in this lie also with the facts of John chapter eight and Titus chapter one. Titus chapter one is a clear lock that God NEVER EVER LIES yet here in 1Samuel chapter sixteen we not only have caught God in a blatant lie but commanding Samuel, His Prophet, to lie as well.

What are you going to do? We have clear Scripture that states that it is "impossible" for God to lie and we also have clear Scripture where God does the "impossible" by actually lying.

Tell me Doug Yowell how can you explain these FACTS?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

In fact there are "NO PARAMETERS AROUND GOD". If God had parameters and limitations then God is not "infinite" which makes God a liar because God states that He is unbounded (nothing impossible with God-texts).

That means there are no "holiness" boundaries, no "love" boundaries, no "mercy" boundaries, no "law" boundaries, no boundaries of any kind, way shape or form.

So string your man made paradoxes together in as big a line as you want, they only demonstrate the great ignorance of the human and the immeasurable inability of the human to know God in His totality.

So setting an entire understanding of God on an unshackled by holiness definition demonstrates one's grasp of the Infinite One? "Let him that glorys glory in this,that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord, exercising lovingkindness,judgment,and righteousness in the earth." If a person does not understand these three things how can they glory in the Lord? You argue that might makes right (He is the Creator)He argues that right makes might {"righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne.")"The Lord, the Lord God,merciful and gracious,longsuffering,and abounding in goodness and truth..." This is the glory He has shown to us.

No I am not arguing that "might" makes right.

I am arguing that God makes right simply because "He is" not because of His "might" or any other attribute. God makes right simply because "He is"! That is why God told Moses that He was, "I AM"! You cannot bound God by any kind of "attribute". "God simply is".

There is a difference between the two statements. An infinite difference.

You keep wanting to limit God by "boundaries of this sinful stupid world". God is not bound as you and I are by the laws and conditions of our "box" on this planet we call earth. These "laws" do not apply to God because "God is".

The fundamental flaw in your arguments and in your position is that your position is based on the "box" you and I are in called earth and the sin that has absolutely polluted every single entity both great and small.

God is infinitely bigger than "our box". God operates on a level beyond our human understanding. Even in a sinless state God will always be infinitely beyond our ability to put Him in some "boundaries".

You keep making this fundamental flaw.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Humans are fond of trying to make up scenarios where for God to do one thing makes it a contradiction for God doing something else. Far from demonstrating and proving that God has limitations such "paradoxes" only demonstrate the limitations of the human and the human mind from understanding God.

And your "no paradox needed" gospel simply validates the claim of many that God is indeed a hypocrite,a liar, and no better than any other sinful human, just more powerful.

No it validates that God cannot be put into the "earth box" that you keep wanting to limit God and His existence to.

[BobRyan]

Humans are not "free moral agents".

You don't sin because you chose to sin. You sin because you cannot help it, sin is what you are.

Paul says that is the POV that applies only to the lost -- Rom 8:5-8

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Humans are not "free moral agents".

You don't sin because you chose to sin. You sin because you cannot help it, sin is what you are.

Paul says that is the POV that applies only to the lost -- Rom 8:5-8

No it applies to everyone. Romans chapter eight says that it applies to everyone. See also Matthew chapter seven which talks about the "good trees" and the "bad trees".

[doug yowell]

The fact is Pharaoh could very well be in heaven. After all Pharaoh only did what God wanted him to do.

I am not saying that Pharaoh WILL BE in heaven.

What I am saying is that we just don't know how God will Judge Pharaoh.

You see this is another fatal mistake "free will choicers" make. They tend to assume results based on their preconceived evaluations of "choice". Thus, most Christians assume Pharaoh is going to be lost.

The true FACT is we just don't know.

Lots of things to respond to, so little time.But I think the above statement is very telling.Fact is I know, and we're all supposed to know,that's why the story is there."These things were written for our admonition that we should not..." And if we cannot know if Pharaoh will be in heaven, neither can we know if ANYONE will be there.

[doug yowell]

We are [size:17pt]not here to get our own piece of glory and to demonstrate our own goodness by "choosing" to be God's instruments.

A world class surfer is attempting to ride some of the biggest waves on the planet and in order to be successful he needs to be towed in by another surfer on a watercraft. Unfortunately,he ends up going over the falls on the first wave of a 6 wave set, and is hit on the head with each following wave. After the 3 time down he knows he's in big trouble as he is running out of breath and energy.Just when things are looking impossible his friend on the watercraft darts in to him, putting himself in danger, and pulling next to him yells,"hang on!" With his last bit of strength the drowning surfer reaches out his arm and grabs the device specially made for such occasions, and holds on with all of his remaining strength. The watercraft accelerates to top speed just ahead of the oncoming 30foot high foamball, and the two make it to safety. For the rest of his life the rescued surfer brags to everyone about what a smart decision he made in grabbing the rescue device????? This is your misrepresentation of free choice.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The fact is Pharaoh could very well be in heaven. After all Pharaoh only did what God wanted him to do.

I am not saying that Pharaoh WILL BE in heaven.

What I am saying is that we just don't know how God will Judge Pharaoh.

You see this is another fatal mistake "free will choicers" make. They tend to assume results based on their preconceived evaluations of "choice". Thus, most Christians assume Pharaoh is going to be lost.

The true FACT is we just don't know.

Lots of things to respond to, so little time.But I think the above statement is very telling.Fact is I know, and we're all supposed to know,that's why the story is there."These things were written for our admonition that we should not..." And if we cannot know if Pharaoh will be in heaven, neither can we know if ANYONE will be there.

That's right Doug, we do not know who will be in heaven unless the Bible has already told us that those individuals will or will not be in heaven.

For example we know that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be heaven. We also know that Judas will not be in heaven.

Other than those who are specifically mentioned in the Bible one way or the other we do not nor can we know who will actually be in Heaven.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

We are [size:17pt]not here to get our own piece of glory and to demonstrate our own goodness by "choosing" to be God's instruments.

A world class surfer is attempting to ride some of the biggest waves on the planet and in order to be successful he needs to be towed in by another surfer on a watercraft. Unfortunately,he ends up going over the falls on the first wave of a 6 wave set, and is hit on the head with each following wave. After the 3 time down he knows he's in big trouble as he is running out of breath and energy.Just when things are looking impossible his friend on the watercraft darts in to him, putting himself in danger, and pulling next to him yells,"hang on!" With his last bit of strength the drowning surfer reaches out his arm and grabs the device specially made for such occasions, and holds on with all of his remaining strength. The watercraft accelerates to top speed just ahead of the oncoming 30foot high foamball, and the two make it to safety. For the rest of his life the rescued surfer brags to everyone about what a smart decision he made in grabbing the rescue device????? This is your misrepresentation of free choice.

Well Doug if that drowning surfer did not do what he did then he would be dead. So in light of that fact his decision was the "decisive" element. In your little parable the "decisive" element was indeed decision made by the drowning person. Everything did depend on the drowning person's decision. Whether that drowning person went around "bragging" about it or not is not relevant because the fact remains which ever way the drowning one decided was critical and they get credit whether they take the credit or not.

If the drowning one decided NOT to grasp we would all be sitting around telling the story of how stupid the person was for not "grasping". We would be giving that person "credit" for NOT GRASPING.

It is CREDIT EITHER WAY. You see it not just whether the person takes or refuses "credit" others will also "give credit" regardless of which way the drowning one goes.

If the drowning one "grasps" we will always say that was the best decision, if the drowning one does NOT GRASP then we give that person "credit" for being stupid.

Like I said either way "credit:" is given in some way shape or form to the person.

God's Salvation does not work like your parable of the drowning person.

Salvation using your parable would work more like this:

The friend (which would be Jesus Christ) came to helpless world class surfer when all was hopeless and scooped the drowning one up forcing him to the surface and safely into the boat. Then the Friend went willing down into the killing mess dying so that his surfer buddy could be saved. The Friend did it all including losing his life.

Then three days later the Friend shows up big as life itself and the two buddies walk off into the sunset forever.

That is how true Salvation works. All the credit goes to our Friend Jesus Christ because He did it all and I mean He did it all.

Why then are people "lost"?

Because some "world class surfers" once they find themselves back safely in the boat for whatever "irrational" reason don't like it and they jump right back into the death mess which they like better. When they jump back in the death mess there is no more "Friend" to save them. They are on their own totally because they "REJECTED" the Salvation that was freely given to them.

That is why being lost is an "irrational" act. It makes no sense especially after what the Friend did for them.

[joeb]

Your description of how salvation would work using Doug Yowell's parable is one of the best explanations I've seen of the self-destructiveness sin brings to the human race. Sin is, basically, self-destructiveness, and Doug has given an excellent parable.

Human's, by nature, refuse to follow the Life-Giver and Creator. We choose death willingly because we don't like the implication that we need saving. We're above that. We're better than that. Our instinctual, natural, selfishness causes us to destroy each other and think we are following our instinct for self-preservation and self-interest in destroying each other. We kill each other in wars thinking we are improving things for ourselves, but in so doing only make ourselves even more enemies who will come after us at some point or other.

Our world is not a rational place, yet claims to be exactly that. In fact, our world claims that anyone who believes in our Creator is clearly irrational. Just how irrational is that? Just how self-destructive is that? It's exactly like the surfer in your example.