To become more liberal...

[Igakusei]

Every entitlement program in the US is based on socialism. The idea that government is responsible for us from the cradle to the grave is socialistic in nature. Go back to the founding of our nation and up to about 1900 and you won't find any of these programs. No SS, Medicare, Welfare, Education, etc.... They simply did not exist and our country, during that time, was the envy of the world. We the people took care of each other. The Federal Government was not in the picture.

I would suggest you take a history class. Maybe start at the third grade and go from there, since you clearly have a lot of catching up to do.

The idea that the government is completely responsible for taking care of every aspect of our lives is a blatant strawman. Nobody of significance thinks that.

I'm not even going to respond to the idea that we took care of each other effectively before 1900. Wow.

[Overaged]

quote=joeb]Every entitlement program in the US is based on socialism. The idea that government is responsible for us from the cradle to the grave is socialistic in nature. Go back to the founding of our nation and up to about 1900 and you won't find any of these programs. No SS, Medicare, Welfare, Education, etc.... They simply did not exist and our country, during that time, was the envy of the world. We the people took care of each other. The Federal Government was not in the picture.

[Igakusei]

The idea that government is responsible for us from the cradle to the grave is socialistic in nature.

It's entirely possible that I'm putting words in his mouth, but the whole "cradle to grave" structure being used here is rather reminiscent of many conversations I've had with other republicans/libertarians who are more interested in arguing that democrats are socialist pigs who are trying to create a nanny state than in actually understanding and responding to their real positions. I'm sure Joeb will correct me if I've misrepresented his opinions.

[Overaged]

reminiscent of many conversations I've had with other republicans/libertarians who are more interested in arguing

It's obvious you don't even know what you are talking about here.

[olger]

God prefers that people would be producers instead of mooochers.

"The way of the sluggard is blocked with thorns, but the path of the upright is a highway" (Proverbs 15:19).

[ClubV12]

"Free public education..."

WHAT? ...bunch of socialists running this country, how can they just give away education like that? The nerve....

:)

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

reminiscent of many conversations I've had with other republicans/libertarians who are more interested in arguing

It's obvious you don't even know what you are talking about here.

So, Overage, why don't you reflect what he is talking about?

Let's see if you really do understand what Igakusei is able to pass on? Because, IMO, those who point out "the obvious", ought to be able to refect that for the rest of us.........

[joeb]

"Free public education..."

WHAT? ...bunch of socialists running this country, how can they just give away education like that? The nerve....

Ummmm.... Have you bothered to look at what our "free" education has become under the control of the political left wing? It is decidedly anti-God and anti-Christianity. It's even becoming anti-American. Displays of patriotism not allowed, but anti-American sentiment clearly welcomed.

[joeb]

Perhaps reading the bible makes us more independant than liberal or conservative?

On this you and I can agree. I'm not of any political persuasion. I vote, but am a registered independent. I could never give loyalty to a political party for I must be loyal to God first, last, and always.

[ClubV12]

The issue with "free education" is not how it done, or not done, or what it does or doesn't constitute.

I was simply carrying forward the concept, of some, that free Government "programs" are "socialism". Of course this is an absurd example. But, this is what happens when left and right wingnuts take such extreme positions. It becomes laughable!

What is NOT laughable is the current state of public education, I certainly share your concerns in that regard.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

"Free public education..."

WHAT? ...bunch of socialists running this country, how can they just give away education like that? The nerve....

Ummmm.... Have you bothered to look at what our "free" education has become under the control of the political left wing? It is decidedly anti-God and anti-Christianity. It's even becoming anti-American. Displays of patriotism not allowed, but anti-American sentiment clearly welcomed.

"Free education" does not exist. There is not a free money tree out in the forest somewhere.

To many think there is such a thing as a "free lunch" Doesn't exist.

Many pay for this "free education" for others at the same time they are paying a private school for their own children.

[bonnie]

The issue with "free education" is not how it done, or not done, or what it does or doesn't constitute.

I was simply carrying forward the concept, of some, that free Government "programs" are "socialism". Of course this is an absurd example. But, this is what happens when left and right wingnuts take such extreme positions. It becomes laughable!

What is NOT laughable is the current state of public education, I certainly share your concerns in that regard.

Free government programs are funded by money taken from one segment of society and given to another.The government does not have or produce a income of it's own.All income is derived from the taxpayer and he is paying for the "free"

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs) is a slogan popularised by Karl Marx

[ClubV12]

Of course "free" Government programs are funded by taxes, city, county, State, Federal.

Does THAT make us a "socialist" country? Which IS the point!

Last time I checked the USA was a "Republic", did Congress pass some law I'm unaware of and now were "socialists", or "communists" or some other inflamatory term you would like to use?

[joeb]

It's entirely possible that I'm putting words in his mouth, but the whole "cradle to grave" structure being used here is rather reminiscent of many conversations I've had with other republicans/libertarians who are more interested in arguing that democrats are socialist pigs who are trying to create a nanny state than in actually understanding and responding to their real positions. I'm sure Joeb will correct me if I've misrepresented his opinions.

Well, yes, you are putting words in my mouth.

Furthermore I have no political loyalties. I just look at policies, their real world results, unintended consequences, the origins of today's political agendas, and the history of my own family.

My great grandfather came here with very little in the late 1890's. He, like all the other immigrants, came here because the US was the land of opportunity. Here existed opportunites to have a better life for both himself and children. He started his own logging business as his vehicle for improving his lot in life. When the great depression hit 1929 he had more than $1 million worth of logs on the landing ready to be shipped. He went bankrupt but because he was a man of honor and integrity he paid off all of his debts, started over and once again became a wealthy man.

When he came here there were no socialistic government programs, but there were in his homeland. However, in his homeland opportunity to really improve his life didn't exist and partially because of those socialistic programs. He didn't want a government to take care of him. He wanted to earn what could. He wanted independence and freedom so much he gambled everything on it. (It seems I'm very much like he was).

Millions just like him came from every country in the world because the US was the envy of the world. The people all knew that if they could get here they had a chance at a much better life. They didn't care if they lived in poverty and struggled for a while, because they were already doing that where they came from. They wanted that chance that America provided. Those millions of people came, not looking for a handout, but a chance to succeed, and that's what they did. They made better lives for themselves and their families.

True, not every one of the succeeded, but that is life. Not everyone wins financially, and no government can guarantee that. It's impossible. All a government can do is give you the freedom to take the chances you need to take yourself. And, some people will fail no matter what you do for them. It's not a popular thing to say, but it is reality. If a government tries to make everyone a success, all it does is take away the incentive for those who are working hard and succeeding to keep on doing just that.

I, nor anyone else, is disincentivised to succeed by being generous towards others. That is a personal choice and giving willingly has a great psychological rewards. I, and everyone else, are disincentivised by having someone come and tell me they are going to take away the fruits of my labor and give it to someone else who will not put forth the same effort I have. We are doubly disincentivised when we see our money wasted and eaten up by fraud, mismanagement, and inefficiency.

The Bible tells us the following:

Isaiah 65: 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands

God knows that He designed humanity with this type of desire/drive within them and has made it an integral part of heavenly life. While life here on this earth is much harder and shorter, the idea of building for themselves and enjoying the fruits of their own labor is why the immigrants came. It's who God created them to be. They came to contribute, not sponge off of others.

Look, however, at the class and race warfare being championed by the left today. Even members of Congress from the political left are encouraging hatred, violence, and property destruction, and are doing so overtly.

Research Van Jones, Frances Fox Piven, and others who have either been inside the Obama administration or are close advisors, and you will find they have taught, and are teaching the destruction of the US. This is a political agenda of which I cannot approve. Some of Obama's people even find Mao Tse Tung to be their hero. The man that killed 60,000,000 of his own people and was a child molestor who sent his bodyguards out to find him new little girls for every night is their hero. Do you really want to align yourself with people like that?

[Igakusei]

Ummmm.... Have you bothered to look at what our "free" education has become under the control of the political left wing? It is decidedly anti-God and anti-Christianity. It's even becoming anti-American. Displays of patriotism not allowed, but anti-American sentiment clearly welcomed.

Could you define "anti-American" for us? You really need to stop getting your history lessons from people like David Barton.

Maybe start by learning a bit about what the founding fathers actually thought about majorities imposing their will upon minorities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._10#The_question_of_faction

[Igakusei]

Again, nobody is fighting for everyone to have the same standard of living.

It's not about the government trying to make everyone successful, it's about the government providing enough of a safety net that even those who try and fail are still afforded some basic necessities of life. Things like basic medical care, clothes, food, and an education.

Those who want to work harder and earn themselves a higher quality of life will always be able to. Nobody is arguing against that. So keep generalizing things into both extremes, but it isn't going to get you anywhere.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

Ummmm.... Have you bothered to look at what our "free" education has become under the control of the political left wing? It is decidedly anti-God and anti-Christianity. It's even becoming anti-American. Displays of patriotism not allowed, but anti-American sentiment clearly welcomed.

Could you define "anti-American" for us? You really need to stop getting your history lessons from people like David Barton.

Maybe start by learning a bit about what the founding fathers actually thought about majorities imposing their will upon minorities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._10#The_question_of_faction

I've read both the Federalist papers and the Anti-Federalist papers. I don't get anything from David Barton although I do end up agreeing with him sometimes. US history has been my hobby since I was in the 3rd grade or so. I've read Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, John Adams, and more. I know what they said and what they believed.

Tell me, who is the "majority" today? Who is in power? Not the right. It's been the left in power in government and the educational system for decades.

Tell me, which founder declared there should be freedom from religion?

[Tom Wetmore]

It does amaze me that some are so politically oriented that the point of the referenced article is completely missed and overwhelmed with partisan rhetoric and argument. Of course, it does perhaps reinforce the contra-point...

[Igakusei]

You have no idea what it's like being a non-Christian in America. Sometimes it's hard to see the bias until you're standing on the other side. The "left" might be doing a decent job of protecting our interests, but your allegation that this is "anti-American" just demonstrates how blind you are to Christian privilege.

[joeb]

Again, nobody is fighting for everyone to have the same standard of living.

It's not about the government trying to make everyone successful, it's about the government providing enough of a safety net that even those who try and fail are still afforded some basic necessities of life. Things like basic medical care, clothes, food, and an education.

Those who want to work harder and earn themselves a higher quality of life will always be able to. Nobody is arguing against that. So keep generalizing things into both extremes, but it isn't going to get you anywhere.

Oh, the irony... Don't you realize that if you are guaranteeing a quality of life for those who don't try, and those to do try and fail, that you are guaranteeing everyone for there is no one left other than those who do succeed? This incentivizes those who are lazy to do nothing for they are guaranteed their needs. It's pure lunacy to encourage lazy people to not work.

Also, all these government programs cost money. They do something else that is a great harm to the economic success of the country. They rob the free market of workers. The feds already employ more than 50% of the workforce in the US, and the left wants to further increase the size and scope of government. Who is going to support it? The government gets its money from what the private sector produces so when government is employing more labor than private enterprise the economic output of the country is greatly affected. The tax burden on the private sector becomes more than it can support. Furthermore, the government must borrow more money increasing the amount of interest it must pay, driving up interest rates for everyone, and removing that credit from the reach of the private sector who needs it to expand, create jobs, etc....

Increasing the size and scope of government has manifold negative affects on the lives of its citizens.

[Igakusei]

/yawn

[joeb]

You have no idea what it's like being a non-Christian in America. Sometimes it's hard to see the bias until you're standing on the other side. The "left" might be doing a decent job of protecting our interests, but your allegation that this is "anti-American" just demonstrates how blind you are to Christian privilege.

You didn't answer my question. You pointed me to the founders of our country and told me I knew nothing about it so I asked you a question. Which of them declared there should be freedom from religion?

And, yes I do know what it's like to be a non-Christian in America. I was a pot smoking, hard drug taking, two-fisted drinker who studied eastern religions and lived a hedonistic lifestyle for more than decade. I sponged off the government a lot back then because I had few principles.

Things were much easier for me then than they are now, job-wise. Do you know how many good paying jobs I've had to turn down, or was turned down for, because I keep Sabbath? Do you know how many businesses in this country actually resent honesty and expect you to cheat people? I can verify there are a lot of them and that I have quit, or gotten fired, over it a lot.

Don't assume.

[Overaged]

/yawn

You can't just admit that you have put words in the person's mouth. Your only response has not been above the Kindergarten level yet..

[joeb]

/yawn

Great reply. I knew you had it in you....

[Overaged]