‘Variance’ for North American, Trans-European Division Fails

[SivartM]

Today it's women, tomorrow gays. You'll see, it's coming.

A hundred years ago it was women, and today gays generally aren't even allowed to be members. Why is it that Ellen White was right to have authority in the church but now suddenly it's not the place of women?

Not just a hundred years ago; early Christianity was abnormally empowering to women and minorities. Women and eunuchs and all kinds of people were teaching others.

[John317]

[John317]

Originally Posted By: epaminondas

Today it's women, tomorrow gays. You'll see, it's coming.

A hundred years ago it was women, and today gays generally aren't even allowed to be members.

Gay people who are repentant of the sins of homosexuality are welcome as members of our church, but the church prohibits membership to gays who insist that the practice of homosexuality is not wrong. Don't you agree with this policy?

[Woodenavaklu]

What worries me about this whole issue is that the voting results are not representative of the whole church at large. As I understood matters the issue of female ordination was dropped off the agenda before the GC because over 80% of the membership is solidly against the matter. In other words the issue was dead before it started.

Now we have a vote on what is effectively the same issue and we do not see the 80/20 split that was evident before the GC session.

Have we really experience such a massive change in the views of the membership or is the a problem with the way delegates are being selected for these meetings?

[Stan]

Actually this is not about women's ordination. All though some view it as a mask for that.

I am a male, and not on the ordination track, I am a commissioned minister, am licenseed and able to 'Marry and Bury" etc This is common for those who have spent years in administration and have not worked as a Pastor.

The action Jackson moved, was to allow people like myself to serve in capacities that I would be exempt from.

When responding, keep in mind that Conference Presidency and other such, are not on my scope at all. Please keep that in mind.

I do know other Commissioned Ministers, that would make outstanding Conference Presidents, but would not be allowed under the current 'laws' of the Church.

[CoAspen]

All to often tradition becomes the law. The law of the church becomes the law of God.

I see such arguments as delaying the Lords coming.....just waiting for the rocks to cry out!

How long will we be part of the delay and God gets tired of us?

[doug yowell]

When responding, keep in mind that Conference Presidency and other such, are not on my scope at all. Please keep that in mind.

Ya gotta start thinking bigger,Stan.

[Stan]

there are things I would like to do, and feel called to do, but that is not one of them.

[doug yowell]

Please note that I said to read it in the original Greek as the 1st Century readers would have understood it. Also be mindful of the "political correctness" adhered to by translators. They stick to tradition more often then we think and are reluctant to stray to far from the "political correctness" of the original translators of an era many centuries ago.

Now if only we could be sure that all those thousands of translators were so bound up in their own pc that they were unwilling to or incapable of distinguishing a correct understanding of 1st century Greek we'd probably all feel a lot more comfortable in using that minority report to negate the other plain instructions of Paul as well as the historical record of Acts which speak completely opposite the point.Does this "leadership" role of Phoebe also disprove the long held myth that the man is to be the spiritual leader of the home?

[doug yowell]

there are things I would like to do, and feel called to do, but that is not one of them.

Then you would discourage any lobbying efforts on your behalf? On the other hand maybe being president of Club Adventist is equally as valuable.

[John317]

Please note that I said to read it in the original Greek as the 1st Century readers would have understood it. Also be mindful of the "political correctness" adhered to by translators. They stick to tradition more often then we think and are reluctant to stray to far from the "political correctness" of the original translators of an era many centuries ago.

Would you please show your best evidence of this?

It appears that you're claiming the translators are involved-- whether consciously or not-- in some kind of conspiracy to keep people from knowing the truth of what the Bible is actually saying. I think it's more likely that you'll find the translators are honest and sincerely trying to give people the best and most accurate translation they can. Usually if a reader compares four or five good translations, he will understand what the Bible says in any given verse.

I think it's best for translators to avoid like the plague a consideration of a particular political or philosophical viewpoint. Whether a translator is in favor of or is against women's ordination should have nothing to do with the way he translates any verse.

[John317]

It helps to compare the secular Greek usage to really understand its original meaning. Most lexicons are built on religious tradition of translators.

People who have never made a study of biblical languages should rely on translations and lexicons rather than think they know better than those who have spent a lifetime studying Greek and Hebrew.

[John317]

...As for the authority part, explain Phoebe. (Romans 16:1-2, best read in the original Greek)

Paul identifies her as the minister of the church at Cenchrea, a leader of many, including Paul himself. And Paul directed the believers in Rome to accept her as such, and to assist her with whatever she needed as one who was put in charge. For indeed Paul had done just that by commending her to them. He appointed her to deliver his letter and appointed her to serve as minster to the believers in Rome.

Scholars in the NT Greek do not agree that Phoebe was a leader of Paul, but there's no reason to doubt that she was given the responsibility of delivering Paul's letter to the Romans.

However, Phoebe was almost certainly not a minister or pastor of the church at Cenchrea. The reason this is doubtful is that Cenchrea was very close to Corinth, and Paul had written the Corinthian believers in 55 AD, "As in all the churches of the saints, let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says" (1 Cor. 14: 33-34). Romans 16 was probably written the next year, 56 AD.

It's hard to imagine that Paul would say this if only a few miles away was a church in which the pastor was a woman.

KJV--16:1-- I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

16:2-- That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer [helper, protector] of many, and of myself also.

Weymouth translates prostatis (Strongs #4368) as "a kind friend."

Wuest has "a benefactress."

NASB: "helper."

NIV: "a great help."

Amplified: "helper... shielding us from suffering."

The Voice: "she has spent her energy and resources helping others... benefactor."

Greek-English Lexicon (Hickie): a female guardian; a protector.

Greek-English Dictionary (Mounce): a patroness, protectress.

[John317]

The trend is that each time any vote comes up concerning women in ministry, the vote is closer. The margin is less each time. In this instance, just 26 people could have swung the vote the other way.

I agree with you. Perhaps that is the reason the issue keeps being brought up for a vote.

It seems obvious to me that the request of NAD to allow commissioned ministers to serve as conference presidents is really about women's ordination and leadership in the church. This comes out clearly in the article itself:

Quote:

Spirited debate marks major discussion of women’s roles in leadership...

... Noting a need for experienced leadership within the North American division’s conferences, Dan Jackson, NAD president, said, “We believe the position of a president of a conference should be open to treasurers, to finance officers, to secretaries who are not ordained, to those who carry a commissioned minister’s credential, but are not on an ordination track, including women.”

Jackson added, “This is not a request for women's ordination. … We are talking about governance and leadership.”

Bertil Wiklander, Trans-European Division president, voiced his division’s request for a a similar variance: “We need your help to allow all our members in outreach. Opening doors for women in leadership would strengthen growth of the church in Europe,” he said...

...Uganda Union Mission director John B.D. Kakembo was among those voicing concern on that very point: He said he was troubled that “when we say that if we don't do this, we will be seen as people who are discriminating.”

Baltic Union president Valdis Zilgalvis spoke in support of the variance: “Women in the early Christian church were recognized” as ministers, he said. “In fourth century, women were pushed away from ministry at the altar, and you know which church did that. … I agree the leader should be trained, but I don't see a difference between the genders.”

Paul Ratsara, president of the Southern Africa-Indian Ocean division, urged caution in the process: “Definitely this topic is a very sensitive one,” he said. “It is very hard for me to stand here when I think of the request of my dear colleagues from this [North American] Division. …

... We need to agree on that first: is this negotiable, is this something we can say, 'You can do it, no problem?'”

Nepthali J. Manez, president of the North Philippines Union, opposed the measure, saying, “If this is approved, I would encounter a lot of difficulties. If we grant this motion, at least from the way I assess my constituency, it would give me a lot of problems.” He urged that delegates “wait at least a year” before moving forward.

West African Union president James M. Golay also expressed his concerns, saying, “The church is God's church. I don't want for the issue to divide us.”

Golay said he had “read scripture,” but did not “see it. It’s not in the church manual or in the policy book. If this is going to be a new policy, we need to consult heavily.”

[Twilight II]

One of the core issues with feminism is it rejects the judgement that God placed on women in the garden of Eden.

Women were placed in subjection to their husbands. Whether we like it or not, that is what God ordained.

Women have been fighting against that ever since.

Right at the core of the biggest problem for women is accepting that judgement.

Feminism is just a masked rejection of that judgement from God.

That is why Paul restresses:

"Wives submit yourselves to your husbands".

Ask any women what she thinks of this and you will know if they have surrendered that sin of seeking the controlling position in the home...

But feminism has taught us all to say "such ideas are akin to racism" which I noted in Coaspens post.

God does raise up women to do His work, but the woman should be in subjection to her husband even in that (husband being a Spirit led man of course).

That is Gods design.

Don't like it?

Then take it up with God...

[BobRyan]

Ted was praised by discerning world members, and grumped at by women's ordination militants

Rejoice always!

`G

Point.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Noting a need for experienced leadership within the North American division’s conferences, Dan Jackson, NAD president, said, “We believe the position of a president of a conference should be open to treasurers, to finance officers, to secretaries who are not ordained, to those who carry a commissioned minister’s credential, but are not on an ordination track, including women.”

Jackson added, “This is not a request for women's ordination. … We are talking about governance and leadership.”

...

Pastor Ted N.C. Wilson, General Conference president, took the rare step of relinquishing the chair during the morning session to speak in opposition to the NAD proposal.

Given that in-house LSU meeting that Dan Jackson held where he trashed David Asscherick - I continue to be impressed by cases where Ted Wilson is required to step in as the voice of reason after Dan has done something not well thought through. Especially in the LSU case where Dan's antic came back to bite him.

in Christ,

Bob

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

The trend is that each time any vote comes up concerning women in ministry, the vote is closer. The margin is less each time. In this instance, just 26 people could have swung the vote the other way.

I agree with you. Perhaps that is the reason the issue keeps being brought up for a vote.

I also agree. And the reason why it keeps getting brought up in it's various forms is because the NAD keeps bringing it up despite it's continual rejection by the world church.And the fact that the vote keeps getting closer merely demonstrates that the advocates of women's leadership continue to flaunt their rejection of the church's previous vote. The effects of the church's compromise and failure to require conformity to the GC decisions have taken their toll.The old "everybody's already doing it" argument begins to exercise more and more influence.This demonstrates the origin of the movement itself. Imagine if the early church had to decide every 2-5 years whether or not to require circumcision for the Gentiles. Every annual council, every GC meeting the same motions appear.Fact is,this movement believes that the Holy Spirit is moving them to keep pushing this and also believes that the rest of the SDA world church is resisting the Holy Spirit.It's advocates know that it would cause divisions in the world church (as well as local churches) but they don't care.If SECalifornia Conference is any indicator of what these people are really like(and they are)once they are given victory in this area they will never allow it to be brought up again. They will attempt to pressure dissident churches into conformity and the issue will be closed.Thank God for the 7000 that are still willing to stand up for the unity of the church.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

It helps to compare the secular Greek usage to really understand its original meaning. Most lexicons are built on religious tradition of translators.

People who have never made a study of biblical languages should rely on translations and lexicons rather than think they know better than those who have spent a lifetime studying Greek and Hebrew.

Yes!

[doug yowell]

Sound like I Kings 13:31? Why the need for ministerial credentials? Why not include experienced Sabbath School teachers,Pathfinder leaders,construction contractors?

[doug yowell]

[Given that in-house LSU meeting that Dan Jackson held where he trashed David Asscherick - I continue to be impressed by cases where Ted Wilson is required to step in as the voice of reason after Dan has done something not well thought through. Especially in the LSU case where Dan's antic came back to bite him.

Good point, Bob.If Elder Jackson got the basic LLU thing wrong why should anyone trust his judgment on this issue that threatens to divide the world church?

[Tom Wetmore]

Reading those tea leaves is hazardous business. The vote somehow reflects God's will, or does it?

What is the meaning of the divided vote? Some triumphantly proclaim that the majority reflect the will of God, which effectively condemns those who vote the other way as being tools of Satan. So as the percentages drift the wrong way, the church is apparently being lead down the road of perdition.

On the other hand, one could see it as the majority stubbornly refusing to listen to the Holy Spirit and voting their own will. Each time it comes up more listen to the Holy Spirit. The church is slowly conforming to God's will.

Then again, maybe God is ambivalent and the divided vote either reflects that ambivalence or God just wants us to make up our minds on something that He doesn't see as such a burning issue of right or wrong.

[CoAspen]

THE curse for males was to till the ground with their hands!!

Don't like it?

Then take it up with God...

[Twilight II]

THE curse for males was to till the ground with their hands!!

Don't like it?

Then take it up with God...

Indeed, man would have to sweat for his survival...

I don't see too many "malism" movements having a problem with that...

[CoAspen]

And when was the last time you saw someone sitting around it their controlled office working by the sweat of their brow? Read the 'punishment' for males....any males actually doing what is described in Genesis other than the occasional farmer? Didn't think so!!! Yep, we male seem to have slipped under the wire..huh! Just making sure those females stay in their place!

Right on you guys! High fives all of you!!