‘Variance’ for North American, Trans-European Division Fails

[John317]

In 1 Cor. 11: 5, Paul wrote,

but every wife [woman] who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as if her head were shaven.

Later, in 14: 33b & 34, he wrote:

As in all the churches of the saints, [34] the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

Even later, Paul wrote to Timothy:

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. [12] I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. [13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve; [14] and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. [15] Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.(1 Tim. 2: 11-15)

Do you believe these verses contradict each other?

I don't believe they do. Paul's instruction in 14: 33b & 34 is not an absolute prohibition against women saying anything at all in the churches.

Your thoughts?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

How did he get that authority? He was not elected?

He had authority as a result of his message from God and the phenomena that attended his ministry. The same is true of EGW.

Yes' date=' you are right. Neither Moses nor Ellen White were elected. There was no vote for either of them.

This is different from ministers and pastors. For instance, in order for you to be a pastor/minister, a vote by men was required. If you hadn't been selected by men, you wouldn't have been an SDA pastor.

This isn't to say that God wasn't involved in your being selected, but God didn't call you directly as He does prophets such as Moses and Ellen White.

The children of Israel sometimes rebelled against Moses and refused to do what he said, but this didn't affect his prophetic ministry. If every Israelite had rejected Moses, he still would have been a genuine prophet of God. Similarly there have been times when the SDA church as a whole rebelled against God's prophet, Ellen White, but this didn't affect Ellen White's prophetic ministry. Both Moses and Ellen White were prophets irrespective of the reaction of humans.

This is not the case with ministers, pastors, teachers. If people hadn't voted to select you as a pastor/minister, you wouldn't have been a pastor/minister of a church.

A genuine prophet doesn't give their own message but God's. The church can't tell the prophet what to say. On the other hand, the pastor/minister gives the message of the church to the people. [This is not a denial that the Holy Spirit impresses pastors with messages that the people need to hear.'] The church has the right to tell the pastor what to teach. If the pastor refuses to teach what the church tells him to, the church has the power to fire him. The church can't fire God's prophet.

[John317]

It's been stated over and over again that the NT makes clear women are able to do many different ministries in the church. These include women's ministries, children's ministries, music ministries, personal ministries, evangelism, Bible worker, health ministries, etc.

Originally Posted By: lazarus

So......

Are women allowed, in your opinion, to speak in church as leaders or participants in these departments?

Are they allowed to teach men when involved in these departments?

I'm assuming the answer is no if we are to be true to Paul's counsel as you see it.

The Holy Spirit's counsel given through Paul is not an absolute prohibition against women speaking in church under any and all conditions.

Notice what Paul writes in 1 Cor. 11: 3-5:

1 Cor. 11:3-5

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. [4] Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, [5] but every wife [Gr gyne, "woman"] who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as if her head were shaven.

Paul makes it clear that women may pray and prophesy in church provided certain circumstances are met.

What do you understand Paul to be saying here?

[John317]

Lazarus, have you ever read or heard of this book, which you can read online:

http://cdn.desiringgod.org/pdf/books_bbmw/bbmw.pdf

It's titled, Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood, written by John Piper & Wayne Grudem

Check out especially chapters 3 to 7.

[lazarus]

Paul makes it clear that women may pray and prophesy in church provided certain circumstances are met.

I can agree with your assessment of Paul here.

When we are talking about a woman's involvement in church today we do not limit their involvement to praying and prophesying. Are you saying we should limit the work of women in the church to these activities? If yes than that would radically change the role of women in the SDA church. Are you also saying that if a woman does not meet those conditions today, i.e. cover her head, she should not be allowed to speak?

In my mind Paul allows women to speak in public as long as they demonstrate their submissiveness. The way to demonstrate submissiveness in his culture and context was to cover the head.

One question still lingers.

Do you think women should teach men?

In Corinthians 14:26 Paul is talking about maintaining order in the churches as it relates to prophesying and speaking in tongues. In my judgement he is clearly banning women from speaking and teaching as it relates to verses 26-29. Context is everything. Paul was responding to the cultural conditions of his day. This is the only way Paul's injunction can be reasonably understood.