‘Variance’ for North American, Trans-European Division Fails

[John317]

And "those wives" is a possible translation when one factors in the historical account along with biblical examples of noted NT women leaders. There seems to be a growing number of translators who are favoring this rendition. Most still are either fence sitting, actively broadcasting your position...holding onto tradition...

What part of speech is the word "those"?

(Are you claiming that the definite article, ai, is increasingly being translated as "those" in 1 Cor. 14: 34?)

Can you give examples of translations which read "those wives"?

Are you familiar with the word, ekeinee (singular) or ekeinai (plural)? The latter is the word Paul would have used if he intended to say "those wives."

It has nothing to do with "tradition." It has to do with the rules of grammar and of translation. It wouldn't be a good idea to let one's political ideas, etc., determine how these verses should be translated.

There are several reasons that we know the text shouldn't be translated as "those wives." I'll give three:

1) It wouldn't make sense to say, "As in all the churches of the saints, let those wives keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak..."

The reason it doesn't make sense is that it would necessitate the idea that those same wives are in all the churches of the saints.

Or do you believe that "those wives" are a problem in all the churches of the saints?

2) Another reason it can't mean "those wives" is that 1 Cor. 14: 35 says, "It is shameful for a woman to speak in church." "A woman" is "any woman." It referring to women in general, not to some particular women.

We know this, also, because Paul said the same thing to the church at Ephesus. (See 1 Tim. 2: 11, 12.)

3) And yet another reason it can't mean "those wives" is that Paul says in verses 36-38 that he is writing the "commandments of the Lord."

Why would Paul need to support his counsel with a commandment of the Lord if all he is saying is that certain women who are causing disturbances during the worship services should not be allowed to speak?

And why would he refer his readers to "the law"?

Also, if he is merely saying that women who disturb the worship service should not be allowed to make such disturbances, why would Paul appeal to the testimony of genuine prophets?

These last verses of 1 Cor. 14 show that Paul expected some of the men to reject his commandment regarding women being silent in the churches.

But why would any of the men reject Paul's command that women not be allowed to create disturbances in the worship service? The answer is that they wouldn't.

However, there is no doubt that some men and women would have opposed Paul's command that women in general not be allowed to speak or to exercise authority.

[lazarus]

To those who believe that Paul's NT counsel regarding women in the church should stil! be applied in 2011:

Are you saying that women should not teach SS classes? Women should not preach? How about the work of the church clerk in front of the church? Should a woman be allowed to teach youth Sabbath school, teach in our colleges and schools. Are we saying that a woman should not announce a hymn or read the scripture reading? Is it acceptable to have female youth ministries leaders? Should a woman be allowed to direct a Choir? Should the Head Deaconess be allowed to direct the church janitor concerning what things should be cleaned.

I'm just wondering what are the practical implications of the application of this counsel.

[Twilight II]

To those who believe that Paul's NT counsel regarding women in the church should stil! be applied in 2011:

Are you saying that women should not teach SS classes? Women should not preach? How about the work of the church clerk in front of the church? Should a woman be allowed to teach youth Sabbath school, teach in our colleges and schools. Are we saying that a woman should not announce a hymn or read the scripture reading? Is it acceptable to have female youth ministries leaders? Should a woman be allowed to direct a Choir? Should the Head Deaconess be allowed to direct the church janitor concerning what things should be cleaned.

I'm just wondering what are the practical implications of the application of this counsel.

Straw man.

No one has made this argument.

[lazarus]

Straw man.

No one has made this argument.

Straw man? Lol!!!

I repeat: I'm just wondering what are the practical implications of the application of this counsel.

What things should a women do and not do in the church or we simply having a theological discussion here. There must be some implications.

[John317]

....A clear translation is,

Let those women keep silent among the called out ones

The New American Standard: Let the (THOSE) women keep silent in (AMONG) the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

The NASB reads, "Let the women keep silent in the churches..."

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

Let those women--who are not yet a part of the converted membership-- keep silent among the called out ones-- the ekklesia -- and subject themselves to their poor embarrassed, converted husbands. Rather than participating in services as the converted women do, they are to ask their husbands to instruct them at home.

Again, there is no valid evidence for this. I understand it is what you believe and what you think happened, but it seems to me to be based on conjecture rather than on anything found in the texts themselves. There's no suggestion that the women are only some particular unconverted wives.

[John317]

I repeat: I'm just wondering what are the practical implications of the application of this counsel.

What things should a women do and not do in the church or we simply having a theological discussion here. There must be some implications.

It's been stated over and over again that the NT makes clear women are able to do many different ministries in the church. These include women's ministries, children's ministries, music ministries, personal ministries, evangelism, Bible worker, health ministries, etc.

[John317]

.

The KJV adds several words to this verse that are not in the Greek manuscripts, adding "your" to women, and the phrase "they are commanded". These added words make it sound like a universal ruling against ALL the women when it is not.

There's a good explanation for what you've observed in the KJV.

Here's the verse you're talking about:

The KJV--

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.(1 Cor. 14: 34)

The Majority Text contains the word humon [of you]. This means that the majority of Greek manuscripts contain the pronoun humon.

The KJV and the NKJV are based on a different textual tradition than the NASB and most other modern translations. That is the reason for the difference between the KJV and the other translation you're reading.

Most of the other modern translations are based on a text similar to the Westcott and Hort Greek text. It is referred to as the Critical Text, such as is published by the United Bible Societies and the Nestle-Aland Greek NT. These omit the word humon [of you] in 1 Cor. 14: 34 because the editors depend on the Alexandrian type text, that is, the codices Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, and Alexandrinus, etc.

The phrase, "they are commanded," is in italics in the KJV. The italics indicate words that do not appear in the Greek.

There's no practical difference in meaning between the KJV and the reading of the NKJV or the other translations based on the same Greek text:

JKV--"...it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

NKJV--"... they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says."

Or:

Literal Translation, Jay P. Green, Sr.--"... it is not allowed to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as also the law says."

[Neil D]

The bottom line is that there is not a single Greek manuscript or printed text which reads "brothers and sisters."

[John317]

.... I can now show this....

34 Let the {or *those} women (the same word as "wives") keep silent in the churches {church}; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

*The Greeks have many forms of the word "the" but this exact word is "hai" 3588.

The Greek in 1 Cor. 14: 34 reads hai because it must agree with its noun in case, number, and gender. In this instance, gunaikes is nominative, plural, feminine. Therefore the definite article must also be nominative, plural, feminine.

The lexicon always gives the nominative, singular, masculine form. So, for the definite article, that form is ho.

Koine Greek has 17 different ways of spelling the definite article, "the."

hai is just one of these, being the nominative, plural, feminine form.

[John317]

In all the following New King James scriptures the same word in the male form --"hoi" is translated "those": John 6:14, "those men" ;

The literal translation of John 6: 14 is "After the people saw..."

The Greek is: hoi oun anthropoi idontes...

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

John 8:29 KJV, "those things";

This text does not contain the word hoi.

"Those things" is a translation of the neuter, plural definite article, ta. It is literally translated "the things."

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

Romans 8:5 "For those who";

hoi gar kata sarka-- literally

for the ones that are according to [the] flesh

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

Romans 8:8, "those who are in the flesh" NKJ;

Greek:

hoi de en sarki ontes

Literal translation: and the ones being in [the] flesh...

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

I repeat: I'm just wondering what are the practical implications of the application of this counsel.

What things should a women do and not do in the church or we simply having a theological discussion here. There must be some implications.

It's been stated over and over again that the NT makes clear women are able to do many different ministries in the church. These include women's ministries, children's ministries, music ministries, personal ministries, evangelism, Bible worker, health ministries, etc.

Just that they aren't allowed, in your opinion, to be leaders, pastors, elders....In my humble opinion, the bible doesn't support that. It reflects upon God's character...hence of your opinion, females are baby factories, whose primary purpose, in life, is to incubate, give birth, and raise children.

What a sad god this is....can't create women to be more than "baby factories"...I don't want a baby factory, in my home....I want a woman who has intelligence, who....is my helpmet....Now there's a word for discussion....

[John317]

1 Cor 10:18, "those who eat";

ouchi hoi esthiontes

Literal translation: the ones eating

Originally Posted By: hamiton-beach

1 Cor. 15:18,

Greek:

ara kai koimeethentos hoi

Literal translation: then the ones also having fallen alseep...

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

2 Tim 3:6, "those who creep".

Greek:

ek touton gar eisin hoi endunontes

Literal translation:

of these for are the ones creeping

Or: for these are the ones creeping

Originally Posted By: hamiton-beach

and a lot of other examples too numerous to mention.

None of your examples signify that 1 Cor. 14: 34 should read "those wives."

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

By using the feminine form of this word, "hai", Paul is saying, "Let those wives keep silent..."

Thus, I can conclude that Paul did not mean ALL women, just those causing confusion!

"hai" is only in the feminine form. It has no other form or gender.

I suggest that you take your theory to a professor of Greek and ask him what he thinks of it.

Do you know of any translations that give it this way? If so, please name them.

[Neil D]

Quote:

Do you know of any translations that give it this way? If so, please name them.

So, now we begin the "bury the mistake that I made" with lots of posts that can obfuscate this issue....[sigh]

I am done...

[John317]

A clear translation is,

Let those women keep silent among the called out ones

The New American Standard: Let the (THOSE) women keep silent in (AMONG) the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

Which translation gives it as you have it here: "Let those women..."?

The New American Standard does not give it that way. Instead, it has, "Let the women keep silent in the churches." That is a literal translation.

Can you give a single published translation that renders it "those women" and "among the churches"?

You make it appear that the NASB supports your theory, but it clearly does not.

Why are you doing this?

[John317]

Do you know of any translations that give it this way? If so, please name them.

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

So, now we begin the "bury the mistake that I made" with lots of posts that can obfuscate this issue....[sigh]

Do you know of a translation that reads "those wives" and "among the churches"?

I have 65+ translations of the NT and I don't see any that read "those wives."

The many posts are the result of making my posts shorter.

I don't obfuscate the issue at all. On the contrary, I'm shining light on it.

You, on the other hand, obfuscated the issue by writing lots of misinformation about the Greek. My responses simply examine your statements.

If your theory is correct, you should be able to point to at least one translation of 1 Cor. 14: 34 that bears it out.

[John317]

I repeat: I'm just wondering what are the practical implications of the application of this counsel.

What things should a women do and not do in the church or we simply having a theological discussion here. There must be some implications.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

It's been stated over and over again that the NT makes clear women are able to do many different ministries in the church. These include women's ministries, children's ministries, music ministries, personal ministries, evangelism, Bible worker, health ministries, etc.

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

Just that they aren't allowed, in your opinion, to be leaders, pastors, elders....

Is it necessary for women to be the pastor/minister of a church in order to do God's work? Ellen White didn't think so.

It is what I believe the Bible teaches. It is also what the majority of the SDA world church believes, and has believed throughout all of its history.

I believe it can be shown to have the support of the Spirit of prophecy as well.

[Twilight II]

One thing that has really alarmed me on this thread, is the amount of posters that have imbibed secular ideologies and seem completely blind to the fact they have accepted them.

But rather than take this thread off track, I have started a new discussion here:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/489282.html

[John317]

It's been stated over and over again that the NT makes clear women are able to do many different ministries in the church. These include women's ministries, children's ministries, music ministries, personal ministries, evangelism, Bible worker, health ministries, etc.

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

It reflects upon God's character...hence of your opinion, females are baby factories, whose primary purpose, in life, is to incubate, give birth, and raise children.

What a sad god this is....can't create women to be more than "baby factories"...I don't want a baby factory, in my home....I want a woman who has intelligence, who....is my helpmet....Now there's a word for discussion....

This is an unfair and inaccurate statement.

You are putting words in my mouth that I never said or suggested.

I simply agree with what the Bible and Ellen White teach on the topic, and neither of them teach that women are nothing more than baby factories.

Does the Bible teach anything like what you say here? Does Ellen White? Have I said anything to lead you to draw these conclusions?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: John3:17

It's been stated over and over again that the NT makes clear women are able to do many different ministries in the church. These include women's ministries, children's ministries, music ministries, personal ministries, evangelism, Bible worker, health ministries, etc.

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

It reflects upon God's character...hence of your opinion, females are baby factories, whose primary purpose, in life, is to incubate, give birth, and raise children.

What a sad god this is....can't create women to be more than "baby factories"...I don't want a baby factory, in my home....I want a woman who has intelligence, who....is my helpmet....Now there's a word for discussion....

This is an unfair and inaccurate statement. You are putting words in my mouth that I never said or suggested.

I simply agree with what the Bible and Ellen White teach on the topic, and neither of them teach that women are nothing more than baby factories.

Does the Bible teach anything like what you say here? Does Ellen White? Have I said anything to lead you to draw these conclusions?

This is a classic secularised argument.

I have commented on this type of "attack" on the new thread I have posted the link to above.

Once you recognise the source, it is easy to deal with.

[John317]

Thank you. I believe you're right. I'll check it out.

[John317]

... I never said that the translation is "brothers and sisters"...You are correct, there is NO literal translation of that text in that mannor. But nearly every LITERAL translation translates the greek word to "brethren" not brothers.

See The NKJV Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: According to the Majority Text. 1 Cor. 14: 26 has "brothers" in the literal translation.

See the New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament, ed. Brown & Comfort (1993), at 1 Cor. 14: 26, where it reads, "Brothers."

Jay P. Green's Literal Translation has "brothers" at 1 Cor. 14: 26.

The Concordant Greek Text (An Ultraliteral English Translation In the Sublinear) also reads, "brothers."

A Literal translation by Richmond Lattimore has "brothers," at 1 Cor. 14: 26. (Acts and Letters of the Apostles, Farrar, Strau, Giroux, New York, 1982)

[John317]

...There are instances of women in leadership roles. Words associated with them include "deacon", and "apostle", and Greek words implying leadership status within the community of their cities.

Where does the NT teach that women were apostles?

I agree that some women were leaders in their communities. But where does the Bible teach that women were to be the elders, pastors, and bishops in the churches?

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

A clear translation is,

Let those women keep silent among the called out ones

The New American Standard: Let the (THOSE) women keep silent in (AMONG) the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

Which translation gives it as you have it here: "Let those women..."?

The New American Standard does not give it that way. Instead, it has, "Let the women keep silent in the churches." That is a literal translation.

Can you give a single published translation that renders it "those women" and "among the churches"?

You make it appear that the NASB supports your theory, but it clearly does not.

Why are you doing this?

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

... I never said that the translation is "brothers and sisters"...You are correct, there is NO literal translation of that text in that mannor. But nearly every LITERAL translation translates the greek word to "brethren" not brothers.

See The NKJV Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: According to the Majority Text. 1 Cor. 14: 26 has "brothers" in the literal translation.

See the New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament, ed. Brown & Comfort (1993), at 1 Cor. 14: 26, where it reads, "Brothers."

Jay P. Green's Literal Translation has "brothers" at 1 Cor. 14: 26.

The Concordant Greek Text (An Ultraliteral English Translation In the Sublinear) also reads, "brothers."

A Literal translation by Richmond Lattimore has "brothers," at 1 Cor. 14: 26. (Acts and Letters of the Apostles, Farrar, Strau, Giroux, New York, 1982)

What????

And every translation, except for a few, translate that word as "brethren" or "My friends" or "My brothers". There are more translations that translate it as "My brothers and sisters" than just "my brothers". It is clear that the translations that are published are favoring an inclusion of females rather than excluding them....

Clearly, the scholarship, which probably used your sources, STILL favor the inclusing of females........

[John317]

... Except for the older versions of the bible, all make a point of distinguishing that God is a God of order IN ALL THE CHURCHES. Those same newer versions all place the next phrase of "YOUR (those) WOMEN" in the church specifically identifying that the writer intended to zero in on these women in this particular church. Even our language shows that it was women IN THAT CHURCH that needed to keep quiet. It is the phrase that we miss...

Why do you say "YOUR (those) WOMEN" when the actual text reads "your women" or "your wives" or simply "the women" or "the wives."

Again, do you know of a single translation of 1 Cor. 14: 34 which says, "Those women..."?

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

It is of interest that the older versions don't know where to place the period (.) in vs 33.

Almost all the older ones placed it like the King James places it. As I show below, most of the newer ones tend to place it so that Paul is saying the women in all the churches should keep silent.