‘Variance’ for North American, Trans-European Division Fails

[John317]

GOD GAVE US A WOMEN PROPHET for the end times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHY?

a big DUH

is needed here

God chose women prophets before, both in the Old and the New Testaments, yet that fact didn't mean that women were priests, among the original disciples, or appointed as bishops, pastors or elders in the church.

Here are some of the differences I see between prophet and pastor/minister:

I see God's choosing a woman as a prophet as different from men choosing church officers. God gives a prophet visions and dreams directly and they deliver not their own but God's message to the church.

Church officers, on the other hand, represent the church to the congregation.

A prophet's work doesn't depend on the church. Even if the entire church rejected a true prophet, he or she would still be a true prophet. But if a church rejects a pastor/elder/ minister, he won't be in that position.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

In the past we have presented ample evidence supporting woman in pastoral ministry and leadership from the Bible, that woman, and the actions and practices of the Church during her lifetime that are not accepted by those currently opposed to woman in ministry and leadership. There is a refusal to even consider or listen to that evidence.

If by ample evidence you are referring to the one example of a judge in the 1500 years of BC history, and the assertion that certain females named in the NT were heads of churches,and leaders of men based upon a debateable rendering of the Greek language,and the assertion that the overwhelming majority of previous translators were biased against your position,then can you really blame anyone for not accepting your conclusions? If as an example of ample evidence you offer an interpretation of EGW's (incredibly unique unlike any that would qualify today)experience while at the same time offering no specific counsel by her that would substantiate your conclusions, then why should that be so powerfully convincing? If you charge that the curse on the woman needs to be counteracted by emulating EGW's experience while rejecting her own interpretation of the curse then why should we think that you are right about the meaning of her experience? What was EGW's own counsel regarding the basis for any experience or practice???

You apparently don't remember from the past go-rounds on this topic the multitude of EGW quotes and historic references to woman ministers and the Church's own actions affirming women in ministry, including EGW's ordination credential. Either you refuse to accept them or paid insufficient attention to them that you forgot them. If the latter, that simply confirms a dismissive attitude of unwillingness to seriously consider anything that differs with your preconceived point of view.

As one can see through all the heat waves generated by this topic, there is no evidence, large or small, favoring a positive view of women in ministry and leadership that will not be met with scorn, ridicule, dismissiveness and all manner of argument to distinguish and minimize it.

[Tom Wetmore]

What part of "all" does not include women in the statement of the priesthood of all believers?

Hairsplitting distinctions without a difference on the difference between a call of God to be a prophet and God's call to ministry...

EGW being a prophet would have had no impact if the early Adventist movement had not accepted her as such. She would have been a lone voice crying in the wilderness with nobody listening.

But more to the point to this topic, you seem very unwilling to accept and recognize what the Church leaders clearly accepted and recognized about EGW, that she was also an ordained minster of the Church. This was a choice they made and confirmed by issuing her the credential they did.

She did not object at the time. Why are you objecting to that now?

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

An excellent rebuttal to the catholic male headship theology that some so easily embrace!

You feel at ease mocking Gods edict from the Garden of Eden?

I am at ease. I am not mocking anything God said or did. It was not an edict. It was a pronouncement of the curse or consequences of Adam and Eve's sin. We have been round that bush enough already. If you feel comfortable living according to a curse, be my guest. But be as equally zealous about living according to every part of it including the blessing of the thorns and thistles, the pain a woman experiences in childbirth and working by the sweat of your brow for your bread to the day you are sent back to dust. (Have you ever considered that retirement is an abrogation of that curse?)

As for me and my house, we choose to serve a risen Savior that overcame the curse of sin and freed us to live a new life in Him - one where there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female where all are one (equal) in Him.

[Twilight II]

As one can see through all the heat waves generated by this topic, there is no evidence, large or small, favoring a positive view of women in ministry and leadership that will not be met with scorn, ridicule, dismissiveness and all manner of argument to distinguish and minimize it.

As one can see through all the heat waves generated by his topic, there is no biblical evidence, large or small, favoring Gods original edict in Eden, that will not be met with scorn, ridicule, dismissiveness and all manner of argument to distinguish and minimize it...

[Twilight II]

What part of "all" does not include women in the statement of the priesthood of all believers?

Hairsplitting distinctions without a difference on the difference between a call of God to be a prophet and God's call to ministry...

EGW being a prophet would have had no impact if the early Adventist movement had not accepted her as such. She would have been a lone voice crying in the wilderness with nobody listening.

But more to the point to this topic, you seem very unwilling to accept and recognize what the Church leaders clearly accepted and recognized about EGW, that she was also an ordained minster of the Church. This was a choice they made and confirmed by issuing her the credential they did.

She did not object at the time. Why are you objecting to that now?

Do you have a direct statemement from the church showing that Ellen White was a licensed Minister?

Or are you inferring this because she was given credentials so she could be supported financially?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

You feel at ease mocking Gods edict from the Garden of Eden?

I am at ease. I am not mocking anything God said or did. It was not an edict. It was a pronouncement of the curse or consequences of Adam and Eve's sin. We have been round that bush enough already. If you feel comfortable living according to a curse, be my guest. But be as equally zealous about living according to every part of it including the blessing of the thorns and thistles, the pain a woman experiences in childbirth and working by the sweat of your brow for your bread to the day you are sent back to dust. (Have you ever considered that retirement is an abrogation of that curse?)

As for me and my house, we choose to serve a risen Savior that overcame the curse of sin and freed us to live a new life in Him - one where there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female where all are one (equal) in Him.

So you are sticking with the:

"Only farmers were cursed"

...argument?

So you can justify the inroads of secular feminism in the church?

[John317]

What part of "all" does not include women in the statement of the priesthood of all believers?

The priesthood of all believers doesn't mean that all believers have the same role or work in the church. The NT shows this by saying that women should keep silent and not usurp the man's place. Paul told Titus and Timothy to choose men as bishops and elders. He did not mention women.

Notice, also, that Ellen White said that the husband is the head of the home.

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Hairsplitting distinctions without a difference on the difference between a call of God to be a prophet and God's call to ministry..

The distinctions are not man-made or hairsplitting. They are biblical distinctions.

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

EGW being a prophet would have had no impact if the early Adventist movement had not accepted her as such. She would have been a lone voice crying in the wilderness with nobody listening.

Did Ellen White ever conclude that the church should ordain women as ministers/pastors/elders of the church?

You talk about Ellen White beisng a prophet of God, and I believe it, but do you believe that as a prophet of God, she spoke the truth about this issue as well as others?

[phkrause]

Speaking out is speaking "out of turn".

Or speaking over the speaker etc.

Whatever the cause of that was, it was deemed unacceptable.

Has anyone been to a Jewish service??? All the ones I've been to, the women are separated from the men. There is not even a peek from there side, but if we want to talk about unruly, wow the Rabbi had to turn around a number of times and tell the men to shut up! Now that's unruly. LOL

[John317]

It was a pronouncement of the curse or consequences of Adam and Eve's sin. We have been round that bush enough already. If you feel comfortable living according to a curse, be my guest. But be as equally zealous about living according to every part of it including the blessing of the thorns and thistles, the pain a woman experiences in childbirth and working by the sweat of your brow for your bread to the day you are sent back to dust. (Have you ever considered that retirement is an abrogation of that curse?)

It was a sentence that God intended for fall humanity to obey for our own good.

Here's what God's prophet said:

Quote:

Eve was told of the sorrow and pain that must henceforth be her portion. And the Lord said, "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." In the creation God had made her the equal of Adam. Had they remained obedient to God--in harmony with His great law of love--they would ever have been in harmony with each other; but sin had brought discord, and now their union could be maintained and harmony preserved only by submission on the part of the one or the other. Eve had been the first in transgression; and she had fallen into temptation by separating from her companion, contrary to the divine direction. It was by her solicitation that Adam sinned, and she was now placed in subjection to her husband. Had the principles joined in the law of God been cherished by the fallen race, this sentence, though growing out of the results of sin, would have proved a blessing to them; but man's abuse of the supremacy thus given him has too often rendered the lot of woman very bitter and made her life a burden.

Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God's plan. In their efforts to reach positions for which He has not fitted them, many are leaving vacant the place where they might be a blessing. In their desire for a higher sphere, many have sacrificed true womanly dignity and nobility of character, and have left undone the very work that Heaven appointed them. {PP 58,59}

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

As for me and my house, we choose to serve a risen Savior that overcame the curse of sin and freed us to live a new life in Him - one where there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female where all are one (equal) in Him.

Tom, equality under the Gospel does not mean sameness or doing the same things. Paul was talking about all humanity having equal access to salvation. Paul made this statement in the book of Galatians and then within a short time wrote 1 Cor. 11 and 14 where he showed that he didn't mean men and women have the same work to do in the church.

[John317]

Has anyone been to a Jewish service??? All the ones I've been to, the women are separated from the men. There is not even a peek from there side, but if we want to talk about unruly, wow the Rabbi had to turn around a number of times and tell the men to shut up! Now that's unruly. LOL

Yes, I've been to one but it was on a Friday night and I never saw Rabbis talking that way. It was very quiet and everyone was well behaved. Maybe I should go on the Sabbath during the day.

[John317]

But more to the point to this topic, you seem very unwilling to accept and recognize what the Church leaders clearly accepted and recognized about EGW, that she was also an ordained minster of the Church. This was a choice they made and confirmed by issuing her the credential they did.

She did not object at the time. Why are you objecting to that now?

You should check with Ellen White Estate on the reasons for the credential. There was no objection to the issuing of the credential since they weren't making her an ordained minister. She never did the work of an ordained minister-- baptizing, conducting a wedding, or founding churches. She also never showed or expressed to desire to do those things.

Ellen White was not being dishonest simply because she accepted the credential in order to travel to the various churches and receive reimbursement for travel expenses. That was a legitimate reason for the credential, as was the fact that it was evidence she represented the church.

Another reason was that Ellen White needed identification showing that she was traveling as part of her work on behalf of the church. As I said earlier, it was common for women traveling alone or walking the streets alone to be suspected of being a prostitute.

[John317]

...You apparently don't remember from the past go-rounds on this topic the multitude of EGW quotes and historic references to woman ministers and the Church's own actions affirming women in ministry, including EGW's ordination credential. Either you refuse to accept them or paid insufficient attention to them that you forgot them. If the latter, that simply confirms a dismissive attitude of unwillingness to seriously consider anything that differs with your preconceived point of view.

Those credentials didn't mean that Ellen White was supporting women's ordination to become church pastors, however. The women were given credentials as teachers, dentists, etc., for the purpose of showing that they represented the SDA church.

Study the statements on the topic published by the Ellen White Estate. I've already posted the link to one article by William Fagal. (You've said you reject it because you don't agree with his conclusions.)

[John317]

EGW being a prophet would have had no impact if the early Adventist movement had not accepted her as such. She would have been a lone voice crying in the wilderness with nobody listening.

I never suggested that the SDA didn't accept her as a prophet. The point is, in order for Ellen White to be a genuine prophet of God, it didn't require a vote like it does for a man to be a pastor/minister/elder.

Here's the difference:

If the church, or a conference, votes to dismiss a pastor/elder, he ceases to a pastor/elder.

On the other hand, if the church votes against a genuine prophet, it has no affect on whether he or she is a prophet or not. The prophet's messages is just as authoritative as before.

No one had to vote in order for Isaiah to be a prophet. But humans have to appoint pastors/teachers/bishops/elders.

God may ordain a man to become a minister/pastor/elder, but if other men do not agree and ordain them, they won't be put in their position.

As God's spokesperson, Ellen White didn't need to be ordained by humans at all.

[John317]

As one can see through all the heat waves generated by this topic, there is no evidence, large or small, favoring a positive view of women in ministry and leadership that will not be met with scorn, ridicule, dismissiveness and all manner of argument to distinguish and minimize it.

First of all, where are the heat waves generated by the topic, Tom?

Second, it is simply not true that I have shown scorn or ridicule or dismissiveness. (I don't believe Mark or doug yowell have shown scorn or ridicule towards women, either.) On the contrary, I have written at length about the various ministries that women are able to do in the church.

Whenever I've talked with women about the church's position, most of them actually agree with it. I don't personally know any women who want the church to change in that respect.

[phkrause]

Yes, I've been to one but it was on a Friday night and I never saw Rabbis talking that way. It was very quiet and everyone was well behaved. Maybe I should go on the Sabbath during the day.

LOL, I'm not sure when I went to my cousins bar mitzvah, but as the service was going on the men would just get louder and louder as they talked about all kinds of stuff. I do believe it was a Sabbath. The Rabbi had to stop a number of times and tell them to be quiet.

[John317]

Was that in a private home or at a synagogue?

[phkrause]

Was that in a private home or at a synagogue?

No No it was in the synagogue.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

Her authority is unsurpassed and endures despite her death. The current leader of the SDA church quotes her frequently as a means of teaching and counseling. If she has no authority why would he do that.

I think what Twilight means is that Ellen White never held a church office or was appointed or elected to any leadership position. She never aspired to one or wanted to be other than a prophet of God commission by Christ Himself.

[John317]

Aren't some bar mitzvah's held in other locations besides synagogues?

[phkrause]

Aren't some bar mitzvah's held in other locations besides synagogues?

I would say no, but am not positive.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

What part of "all" does not include women in the statement of the priesthood of all believers?

Hairsplitting distinctions without a difference on the difference between a call of God to be a prophet and God's call to ministry...

EGW being a prophet would have had no impact if the early Adventist movement had not accepted her as such. She would have been a lone voice crying in the wilderness with nobody listening.

But more to the point to this topic, you seem very unwilling to accept and recognize what the Church leaders clearly accepted and recognized about EGW, that she was also an ordained minster of the Church. This was a choice they made and confirmed by issuing her the credential they did.

She did not object at the time. Why are you objecting to that now?

Do you have a direct statemement from the church showing that Ellen White was a licensed Minister?

Or are you inferring this because she was given credentials so she could be supported financially?

The credential is self-evident. But yes there are two other documented pieces of evidence confirming it that I recall seeing with my own eyes. There was an action taken at the time recording in the General Conference minutes of the action take to issue the ordained minister credential and she is listed in the SDA Yearbook as a licensed minister, as I recall in the Michigan Conference and later when she was issued the credential by the General Conference she was listed among the ordained minsters under the General Conference.

This was consistent with the earlier action taken by the General Conference expressing the position that they did not see any reason not to ordain women. Some have said that nothing every came of that action and there was no action to implement it. However, the fact that after that action was taken, they issued EGW the ordained minister credential certainly seems a follow up.

[John317]

This was consistent with the earlier action taken by the General Conference expressing the position that they did not see any reason not to ordain women. Some have said that nothing every came of that action and there was no action to implement it. However, the fact that after that action was taken, they issued EGW the ordained minister credential certainly seems a follow up.

Best to check out the paper by the EGW Estate about this question. It disagrees with your conclusion.

But you're right that nothing at all ever came from that action, and for good reason. There was not much support for it.

However, you can be sure that if Ellen White believed it should have been implemented and thought it was unfair that it wasn't, she would have said something. The fact that she didn't shows that she supported the non-action. She had no problem opposing actions taken by the church if she was shown that she should. So we can conclude that Ellen White didn't believe God wanted her to oppose it. Otherwise she certainly would have.

[Tom Wetmore]

So you are sticking with the:

"Only farmers were cursed"

...argument?

So you can justify the inroads of secular feminism in the church?

I believe that was your argument or your effort to twist HB's statement about it.

It is not what I have said at all.

If you have paid attention to all I have posted on that you would understand that I have said that that part of the curse says that the ground will be cursed and all men will have to fight the thorns and thistles toiling by the sweat of their brow to the day they die to earn their bread. If you are determined that the part about men being in charge and women being subservient must be followed in all aspects of life to this day, you must also respect the whole rest of the curse by not upsetting the balance of thorns and thistles or having to earn your keep by manual labor until the day you die. You would also not allow for pain relief to be administered to a woman during childbirth since God dictated that she must experience pain in childbirth.

But if you accept the promise in the the pronouncement by God in Eden you would understand that the whole point of the plan of salvation was to overcome the curse of sin. Why you would want to live as if the curse remains in full force and effect is beyond me.

[Tom Wetmore]

You just go ahead and believe what you wish. I believe what I read with my own eyes in the original records.

I am at the point once again in this endless merry-go-round where it is apparent that the same old arguments get repeated over and over no matter what additional evidence and reasoning is attempted. It was just as the "debate" over the variance went on for endless hours at the Annual Council. Some seem more interested in sustaining endless arguments, arguing for the sport of it.

It is time once again to take my leave on Paul's counsel to Titus about such things.