‘Variance’ for North American, Trans-European Division Fails

[John317]

But if you accept the promise in the the pronouncement by God in Eden you would understand that the whole point of the plan of salvation was to overcome the curse of sin. Why you would want to live as if the curse remains in full force and effect is beyond me.

Here's what God's prophet, Ellen G. White, said:

Quote:

Eve had been the first in transgression; and she had fallen into temptation by separating from her companion, contrary to the divine direction. It was by her solicitation that Adam sinned, and she was now placed in subjection to her husband. Had the principles joined in the law of God been cherished by the fallen race, this sentence, though growing out of the results of sin, would have proved a blessing to them; but man's abuse of the supremacy thus given him has too often rendered the lot of woman very bitter and made her life a burden. PP 58

Notice what she calls it: a sentence, and she says that the "sentence" would prove a blessing if people would obey the principles in the law of God, even though it grew out of the results of sin.

Also notice that Ellen White does not suggest that sinful humans should think that they ought to reject God's placing Eve in subjection of her husband.

Aren't Seventh-day Adventist a people who believe in practicing the principles joined in the law of God? Ellen White clearly says that the principles of God's law and the sentence that placed Even in subjection to her husband are in harmony.

[John317]

... the "debate" over the variance went on for endless hours at the Annual Council. Some seem more interested in sustaining endless arguments, arguing for the sport of it.

Believe me, this is not argument for the sport of it. We're talking about very important, even sacred, issues facing our church.

[CoAspen]

You just go ahead and believe what you wish. I believe what I read with my own eyes in the original records.

I am at the point once again in this endless merry-go-round where it is apparent that the same old arguments get repeated over and over no matter what additional evidence and reasoning is attempted. It was just as the "debate" over the variance went on for endless hours at the Annual Council. Some seem more interested in sustaining endless arguments, arguing for the sport of it.

It is time once again to take my leave on Paul's counsel to Titus about such things.

I would agree. I believe a psychologist would have a delightful time analyzing all this hairsplitting about the role of women in the church. There is something about a women being in charge that really scares the.......out of some men, in my opinion. Not sure what that fear is, but using the Bible to support that opinion is truly mind blowing. I have a large suspicion that, even though it is denied, some harbor a belief it has to do with salvation. To call the whole issue as a 'sacred' issue facing the church supports that idea.

[John317]

....To call the whole issue as a 'sacred' issue facing the church supports that idea.

A subject that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write for as much as he did is certainly sacred.

Don't you believe the ministry and work of God is sacred?

Notice in verses 36 and 37 below that Paul says the command he gives in regard to women is the command of the Lord, and he says that anyone who does not recognize what he says should not be recognized.

Doesn't sound like a topic Paul was taking lightly.

1 Cor. 14:34-40

the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. [35] If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

[36] Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? [37] If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. [38] If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. [39] So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. [40] But all things should be done decently and in order.

[John317]

... There is something about a women being in charge that really scares... some men, in my opinion.

It's not about men being scared of women in charge; it's about the teachings of the Bible and God's order and plan.

There is something about God's commands in the Bible that really causes some women and men to rebel against Him.

1 Cor. 11:3-7

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. ...[7] For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

[John317]

... using the Bible to support that opinion is truly mind blowing.

Don't you believe that it's important for the church to follow the Bible in regards to this topic? Or do you believe that the Bible is either not clear or that it doesn't matter?

[Neil D]

I believe that the bible is letting us in on 1/2 of a conversation that was well understood between two parties....and it is nearly a 2000 year old mystery that was talked about....And I have given very good evidence that it is a local issue, not a universal one....

And I have to admit that there are some very distinct problems with your logic and your precepts when you insist that there is a universal precept from a local incident...

[John317]

I will assume you're talking to me, even though I can't be sure of it.

Have you noticed Paul's statement in 1 Cor. 14: 33 and 34--

1 Cor. 14:33-34

As in all the churches of the saints, [34] the women should keep silent in the churches. For [or because] they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

NOTE: Paul's instructions are intended for "all the churches of the saints," not for one particular church.

Notice also that Paul cites the Law as the reason for his command.

[John317]

The credential is self-evident.

But the reason it was given and what it signified in Ellen White's view is not self-evident, is it?

In any case, it's obvious that the credential has nothing whatsoever to do with Ellen White's prophetic ministry, since she served God as His prophet many years before she received a credential.

There's also the fact that Ellen White never did the work of an ordained minister. She never married or baptized anyone, nor did she found a church. No one ever addressed her as "pastor" or "elder." So besides the fact that a credential was filled out and given to her, there is no evidence that Ellen White was an ordained minister. She was never ordained by human hands.

[Neil D]

A subject that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write for as much as he did is certainly sacred.

Don't you believe the ministry and work of God is sacred?

Notice in verses 36 and 37 below that Paul says the command he gives in regard to women is the command of the Lord, and he says that anyone who does not recognize what he says should not be recognized.

Doesn't sound like a topic Paul was taking lightly.

[John317]

Where did you get this information? It sounds like something you copied off the Internet.

The problem with that explanation is Paul never gives those things as the reason for his instructions.

In fact, the only explanations Paul gives have to do with God's creation of Adam and Eve and of Eve's being the one who was deceived.

Paul says he is giving the Lord's commands and he also speaks of what "the law says." (See 1 Cor. 14: 37, 34.)

Why would Paul say all this if the reason had to do with merely a local problem connected to worship of false gods? Some people have also speculated that the problem had to do with the teaching of false doctrine, but again, there's nothing in Paul's letter that indicates this.

Can you make a close and convincing connection between the false worship at Delphi and Paul's instructions to "all the churches of the saints"?

Why did Paul give these instructions to all the churches, and why did Paul give similar ones in his letter to Timothy? (See 1 Tim. 2.)

[John317]

...If women are unable to participate during church services, then many are unable to contribute the gift God has given to them. Each spiritual gift is given for the benefit of the church as a whole-- the inability to participate in church services is like God giving a woman a beautifully wrapped, expensive gift--a present that would help her entire church-- and then telling her that she cannot open it! Would God do such a thing? No, He does not.

I don't believe there are any SDAs who teach that women are not to participate in church services or that they shouldn't use their spiritual gifts.

As I said before many times, there are many ministries that women are able to do. People don't have to be a minister/pastor/elder in order to serve God in ministry.

[John317]

...Paul writes, "For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;" 1 Cor 14:31. Notice he doesn't say that all MEN may prophesy, but that ALL can prophesy if it is done "one by one".

Good point. So Paul is not saying that women can never speak in the worship service.

This harmonizes with what Paul says in 1 Cor. 11: 5, also.

What then is Paul's main point about women in 1 Cor. 14 and 1 Tim. 2?

That is to say, what is the Holy Spirit's concern in regard to women's role in the church?

[John317]

...God does NOT limit His women. God sees women as equal to serve Him with whatever gifts He has given them to use for the common good.

Women are certainly equal with men. This is not about whether women are equal or not. This is about what the Bible teaches in regard to men and women's role in the church.

Equality does not mean sameness or doing the same work.

For instance, Ellen White was the equal of James White, yet they were distinct in their roles in the church. Ellen White was called of God to be His mouthpiece; whereas, James White was called of God to be a minister of the gospel and a church administrator.

Christ and the Father and the Holy Spirit are equal, but they have different functions or roles in the plan of salvation. Moreover, Christ is in subjection to the Father, yet they are also equal.

1 Cor. 11:3-7

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. ...[7] For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

[John317]

1 Cor. 12:7

7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

Women are given spiritual gifts by God to use for the common good of the people of God. Paul did not take away the right of women to use these spiritual gifts in services-- a woman with a gift of encouragement must be allowed to encourage. A woman with a gift of faith must be allowed to offer a prayer of faith. A woman with a word of wisdom must be allowed to publicly share her wisdom with the congregation. A woman with a musical gift must be allowed to lead joyful songs of praise. A woman with a gift of teaching must be allowed to teach truth. ... God does NOT limit His women. God sees women as equal to serve Him with whatever gifts He has given them to use for the common good.

Two points:

1) I've already said many times on this thread as well as on others dealing with the same topic that the Bible allows for women for serve in many different ministries, including music ministry, prayer ministries, women's ministries, children's ministries, personal ministries, Bible instruction, evangelism, etc.

2) God will never call anyone to a ministry which is contrary to what He has revealed in His word. All of God's calls to men AND women are in complete harmony with what He's revealed through His prophets and apostles.

Remember that people can be confused and mistaken as to what God has called them to do.

[Neil D]

Why did Paul give these instructions to all the churches, and why did Paul give similar ones in his letter to Timothy? (See 1 Tim. 2.)

Paul left Timothy behind in Ephesus to stop false teachers; 1Tim 1:3. The church there was fighting many false doctrines from the religion of Artemis because Ephesus was the world center of her worship. The mystery religions and Gnostic beliefs shared many of these same beliefs.

Here are five of these false doctrines widely believed in Ephesus:

1. Eve was created before Adam and received "special knowledge" when she ate the forbidden fruit.

2. Female "Mediators" passed this "special knowledge" on to men during sexual rites featuring intercourse.

3. Mediator women mixing sex with worship were called "Authenia" from the Greek word "Authenteo".

4. Warrior women called Amazons. who were superior to men, founded the city of Ephesus and set up the worship of the fertility goddess Artemis.

5. Artemis, whose name meant SAFE, could keep a woman safe during the dangers of childbirth.

Paul is arming Timothy against every one of these evil doctrines! He warns him in 1Tim 1:20 against two teachers who blaspheme, one a female named Hymenaeus meaning "Wedding Song" and the other a male named Alexander. The doctrine of female Mediators is countered in 1Tim 2:5, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men...". A few verses later Paul moves to stop female teachers such as Hymenaeus by instructing, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to "AUTHENTEIN" a man, but to be in silence."

The entire King James phrase "to usurp authority over" is incorrectly translated from one Greek word, "AUTHENTEIN". This word is used only once in the New Testament, and is called by an early instructor, "a coarse word". The "ein" ending tells us that it is the "to" form of a verb made from Authenteo, Strong's 831. A noun form of the same word is "Authenia" which is the term for the women "Mediators" mixing intercourse with religion! Paul is saying he won't allow women to teach or to ____ a man! [insert a coarse sexual word, which is our closest word to the Greek word "Authentein"]. At the time of Paul it meant to have sex as a part of worship--a joining of a man with a female mediator who represented the goddess being worshipped.

In the very next verse Paul stops the doctrine of Eve being created first, "For Adam was formed first, then Eve." Next he points out that Eve was deceived, not given special knowledge. The final verse proves that Paul is countering evil doctrines!

Hope that answers your question....

[Neil D]

What then is Paul's main point about women in 1 Cor. 14 and 1 Tim. 2?

That is to say, what is the Holy Spirit's concern in regard to women's role in the church?

1 Cor 14:26-40 (New King James)

26 How is it then, *brethren? Whenever you come together, **each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. (*"adelfoi" 80, a fellow believer, Thayer’s Greek Definitions, **Paul indicates that each member, male or female, could participate. )

27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, (Paul tells men to "keep silent" under certain conditions using the same verb "sigatoo" that he uses in vs. 34 addressing wives!) and let him speak to himself and to God.

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.

30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.

31 For you can all (again Paul indicates both male and female participation) prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. (Paul is clearly dealing with disruptive outbursts. He explains that prophets can control their spirits and insinuates they should control themselves.)

33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

34 Let your women ( or wives "gunaikes" 1135) keep silent ("sigatoosan"4601, same basic verb "sigatoo" used in correcting the men in vs. 28) in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. (This refers to Gen.3:16 "…he will rule over you." Indicating a wife’s submission to her husband within her marriage, not submission to all men. There is no other principle Paul could be quoting.)

35 And if they want to learn something, (These wives do not understand, and may not want to learn) let them ask their own husbands at home; (their believing husbands should teach them at home) for it is shameful for women (or wives "gunaiki" 1135) to speak in church. (These were unconverted wives and were not allowed to participate in services as converted women members were doing! These disruptive women were probably prophesying as pagan prophetesses did, because Paul asks sarcastically if God’s original words came from them!)

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?

37 If anyone (male or female) thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, (these wives considered themselves prophets) let him (male or female) acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. (Paul sets a policy that the unconverted wives are not permitted to have a part in services!)

38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant. (Ignorant of Paul’s decision on this.)

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.

40 Let all things be done decently and in order. (Again, avoid disruption!)

When Paul writes in verse 31, "For you can all prophesy in turn…"He was saying, "You’ll each get your turn." Both men and women members were participating, but some uproar had occurred, possibly pitting some of the Christian prophets against unconverted wives who considered themselves prophets sent by pagan gods to straighten out these Christians! Paul corrects first the men, and then the unbelieving women in I Cor. 14:35, "If they want to learn something, ( showing they do not yet understand, and may not really want to learn) let them ask their own husbands (indicating believing husbands) at home; for it is a shame for women (wives) to speak in church."

I've explained elsewhere I Timothy 2....

[John317]

...Paul is arming Timothy against every one of these evil doctrines! He warns him in 1Tim 1:20 against two teachers who blaspheme, one a female named Hymenaeus meaning "Wedding Song" and the other a male named Alexander. The doctrine of female Mediators is countered in 1Tim 2:5, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men...".

Are you sure of this information? Where did you get it? Can you post the link or give the reference?

You said, "He warns him in 1Tim 1:20 against two teachers who blaspheme, one a female named Hymenaeus meaning "Wedding Song" and the other a male named Alexander."

However, both Hymenaeus and Alexander are males. The name Hymenaeus is masculine.

Hymenaeus is mentioned in 2 Tim. 2: 17. He taught that the second coming had occurred alreaedy.

Alexander is probably the coppersmith, or metalworker, mentioned in 2 Tim. 4: 14.

[Twilight II]

Indeed.

She was not an elected official that held authority over the men and never sought that position or encouraged other women to do so, she never sought the role of "priest" in the home or the church.

[John317]

A few verses later Paul moves to stop female teachers such as Hymenaeus by instructing, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to "AUTHENTEIN" a man, but to be in silence."

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

So you are sticking with the:

"Only farmers were cursed"

...argument?

So you can justify the inroads of secular feminism in the church?

I believe that was your argument or your effort to twist HB's statement about it.

It is not what I have said at all.

If you have paid attention to all I have posted on that you would understand that I have said that that part of the curse says that the ground will be cursed and all men will have to fight the thorns and thistles toiling by the sweat of their brow to the day they die to earn their bread. If you are determined that the part about men being in charge and women being subservient must be followed in all aspects of life to this day, you must also respect the whole rest of the curse by not upsetting the balance of thorns and thistles or having to earn your keep by manual labor until the day you die. You would also not allow for pain relief to be administered to a woman during childbirth since God dictated that she must experience pain in childbirth.

But if you accept the promise in the the pronouncement by God in Eden you would understand that the whole point of the plan of salvation was to overcome the curse of sin. Why you would want to live as if the curse remains in full force and effect is beyond me.

Yes, you are making the "farmer" argument Tom.

But you are broadening it to manual labour.

You are in effect saying that if one engages in a sedentary lifestyle, that the edict in Eden does not count.

So all Adam had to do to escape Gods edict was to become a computer programmer...

This is essentially the argument you are making.

But God was not being a literal as you demand, otherwise the edict could be avoided by a visit to the local careers centre...

Your argument is absurd.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

... the "debate" over the variance went on for endless hours at the Annual Council. Some seem more interested in sustaining endless arguments, arguing for the sport of it.

Believe me, this is not argument for the sport of it. We're talking about very important, even sacred, issues facing our church.

Indeed.

At the core of this is what we stand on as a church:

1. Gods revealed will in the Bible?

2. Or secular ideology?

What amazes me is that we can look around at the churches that have adopted secular ideology and how it eventually removes their influence in the world, yet we think we can make it work for us...

Incredible...

[John317]

A noun form of the same word is "Authenia" which is the term for the women "Mediators" mixing intercourse with religion! Paul is saying he won't allow women to teach or to ____ a man! [insert a coarse sexual word, which is our closest word to the Greek word "Authentein"]. At the time of Paul it meant to have sex as a part of worship--a joining of a man with a female mediator who represented the goddess being worshipped.

Do you really believe Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit to say that "I do not permit a woman to _____ a male"?

Why would Paul say such a thing?

What does it have to do with women teaching men in church?

The word "authentein" actually means "to be an autocrat," i.e., to lord it over a man. {See Alford's commentary.}

The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament, page 90, says, "The use [of authenteo] in 1 Timothy 2: 12 comes quite naturally out of the word 'master, autocrat.'"

In some ancient documents, it has the meaning of "authentic." One such reads, "I, Theon, son of O, assistant, have checked this authentic [authentickeei] bond." (Ibid.)

The Analytical Greek Lexicon, page 59, says, "(to be authenths, one acting by his own authority or power, contr. from autoenths, one who executes with his own hand) to have authority over, dominance. N.T."

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, page 84, says, "a. according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself. b. In later Greek writings, one who does a thing himself, the author; one who acts on his own authority, autocratic; an absolute master; to govern one, exercise dominion over one, 1 Tim. 2: 12."

Greek English Lexicon (BAG), page 120, says, "authenteo... have authority, domineer tinos over someone... andros 1 Tim. 2: 12."

Do you know of a single translation in any language that gives it the way you have said?

I would sure be curious to know who on this Forum agrees with what you say here. I wonder if Tom or Co-Aspen are convinced of the truth of your (or someone's) argument.

It would probably be best not to tell the SDA church that this is the best way to solve the question of what Paul was talking about it in 1 Tim. 2: 12. At least not until you put together a better case. And I wouldn't say anything about Hymenaeus being a woman.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

You just go ahead and believe what you wish. I believe what I read with my own eyes in the original records.

I am at the point once again in this endless merry-go-round where it is apparent that the same old arguments get repeated over and over no matter what additional evidence and reasoning is attempted. It was just as the "debate" over the variance went on for endless hours at the Annual Council. Some seem more interested in sustaining endless arguments, arguing for the sport of it.

It is time once again to take my leave on Paul's counsel to Titus about such things.

I would agree. I believe a psychologist would have a delightful time analyzing all this hairsplitting about the role of women in the church. There is something about a women being in charge that really scares the.......out of some men, in my opinion. Not sure what that fear is, but using the Bible to support that opinion is truly mind blowing. I have a large suspicion that, even though it is denied, some harbor a belief it has to do with salvation. To call the whole issue as a 'sacred' issue facing the church supports that idea.

You are misrepresenting the position of those here.

If God had decreed that women "priests" in the home and church were allowed, you would not be having this argument with us.

Accusing those that fear to step away from Gods revealed will, with an emotionally charged "secular crime" does your cause no good.

Emotional manipulation on this point will not work and is irrelevant to the discussion.

I reject your veiled insult to myself and others here that are arguing that we should follow Gods revealed principles as established in His Word.

And I reject your inference that we do not respect and honour women as Christian men.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

You just go ahead and believe what you wish. I believe what I read with my own eyes in the original records.

I am at the point once again in this endless merry-go-round where it is apparent that the same old arguments get repeated over and over no matter what additional evidence and reasoning is attempted. It was just as the "debate" over the variance went on for endless hours at the Annual Council. Some seem more interested in sustaining endless arguments, arguing for the sport of it.

It is time once again to take my leave on Paul's counsel to Titus about such things.

I believe a psychologist would have a delightful time analyzing all this hairsplitting about the role of women in the church. There is something about a women being in charge that really scares the.......out of some men, in my opinion.

That would be a "secular" psychologist I suppose?

Why would the opinion of someone rooted in secular ideologies, like a psychologist, be given weight in this matter?

Again you are pointing to secularism and its ideologies to support your position.

The opinion of a psychologist is irrelevant on this point.

The opinion of God and God alone is relevant.