‘Variance’ for North American, Trans-European Division Fails

October 30, 2011

It is rather obvious that by looking at the greek, in the order that it is translated, that we are 1] looking for a God of order and peace, and 2] those women in that church were obviously not looking for God.

I'd be interested to know why you say this.

How is it obvious to you by looking at the Greek?

What is it about the "order" that it's translated which makes it obvious that "those women in that church" were not looking for God?

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

Ok, I am now done....You can have the last word on this...

Could you please tell me what "newer versions" you have in mind?

Actually, it is the newer translations that are more likely to place the last clause of v. 33 with verse 34.

Consider the following:

"As in all the churches of the saints, women must be silent in church meetings..." (Acts and Letters of the Apostles, Richmond Lattimore, 1982)

"As in all the churches of the saints, women should be silent in the churches." (New Revised Standard Version, 1990)

"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches." (NIV, 1984)

"As in all the churches of God's people, the women should keep quiet in the meetings." Today's English Version, 2nd Edition, 1992)

"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should be silent in the churches..." (Holman Christian Standard Bible, 2010)

"As in all the churches of the saints, [34] the women should keep silent in the churches." (English Standard Version,2008)

"As in all the churches of God's people, women are to keep quiet in church..." (Goodspeed's American Translation, 1948)

"As in all the churches of God's holy people, the women must keep silent." (God's Word, 1995)

"As in all the congregations of God's people, let the wives remain silent when the congregation meets." (The Complete Jewish Bible, 1998)

"As is the rule in all the churches of the saints, women must keep quiet at gatherings of the church." (James Moffatt, The Bible, A New Translation, 1935)

"As [is the practice] in all the churches of the saints [God's people], the women should keep quiet in the churches..." (The Amplified Bible, 1964)

"As in all the congregations of God's people, women should keep silent at the meeting." (The Revised English Bible, 1989)

I have at least 20 more translations which read the same way.

October 30, 2011

...
Interliner Bible puts it as thus, literally-

NOT for IS of-turbulance THE God but OF-PEACE AS IN ALL THE OUT-CALLEDS OF-THE HOLY-ones

What Greek New Testament(s) do you use?

All of the major Greek printed texts connect the words, "as with all the churches of the saints" with verse 34. This includes the Majority Text and both the UBS4 and NA 27, the texts from which practically all modern translations are made.

The New American Bible is the most faithful translation of the UBS4 and NA 27. In 1 Cor. 14: 33,34, it reads, "As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says."

October 30, 2011

He also refers to "the Law" as supporting what he is instructing the men to do with regard to women being silent and submissive in all the churches of the saints.

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

I think it only fair that you provide the evidences of which laws Paul was refering to...

The "law" Paul speaks of is the Old Testament, and he's probably referring to Gen. 3: 16:

To the woman he said,

"I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;

in pain you shall bring forth children.

Your desire shall be for your husband,

and he shall rule over you."

God intended for the woman to be in subjection to the her husband. I realize this is a very unpopular notion today, but the truth must be told.

Ellen White wrote:

Quote:

Eve was told of the sorrow and pain that must henceforth be her portion. And the Lord said, "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." In the creation God had made her the equal of Adam. Had they remained obedient to God--in harmony with His great law of love--they would ever have been in harmony with each other; but sin had brought discord, and now their union could be maintained and harmony preserved only by submission on the part of the one or the other. Eve had been the first in transgression; and she had fallen into temptation by separating from her companion, contrary to the divine direction. It was by her solicitation that Adam sinned, and she was now placed in subjection to her husband. Had the principles joined in the law of God been cherished by the fallen race, this sentence, though growing out of the results of sin, would have proved a blessing to them; but man's abuse of the supremacy thus given him has too often rendered the lot of woman very bitter and made her life a burden. {PP 58, 59}

Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God's plan. In their efforts to reach positions for which He has not fitted them, many are leaving vacant the place where they might be a blessing. In their desire for a higher sphere, many have sacrificed true womanly dignity and nobility of character, and have left undone the very work that Heaven appointed them. {PP 59.1}

October 31, 2011

It's been stated over and over again that the NT makes clear women are able to do many different ministries in the church. These include women's ministries, children's ministries, music ministries, personal ministries, evangelism, Bible worker, health ministries, etc.

So......

Are women allowed, in your opinion, to speak in church as leaders or participants in these departments?

Are they allowed to teach men when involved in these departments?

I'm assuming the answer is no if we are to be true to Paul's counsel as you see it.

October 31, 2011

Misrepresenting the Complimentarian view as an expression of the lesser value of the woman, [the Christian Egalitarians] present as proof THEIR focus on their belief that value is ultimately determined by whether or not men and women can have access to the same roles. This ultimately must permeate all human relationships and would naturally result in the abolition of the man's being the head or high priest of the family unit.

Very important point. No doubt this will change not only how families view the role of mother and father but of how the SDA world church operates.

I would like to see many others on the Forum comment about this from whatever point of view they may have.

October 31, 2011

October 31, 2011

I support everything Ellen White said on the topic. She encouraged women to speak in church whenever they could. Yet she never encouraged them to become the church pastor.

I believe Paul's main point in his letters is that women in the church are to be subordinate. According to the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, God's arrangement is for the husband to be the head of the wife and the head of the home.

Quote:

1 Tim. 2:12-15

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. [13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve; [14] and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. [15] Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Notice the connection the apostle makes between woman exercising authority over a man and the Fall. What happened when the woman became the teacher of the man because he abandoned his responbilities? Why did Adam choose to disoeby God's command not to eat of the fruit? When we understand the answers to these questions, we will begin to have some understanding of why Paul writes as he does in 1 Cor. 11 and 14 and 1 Tim. 2.

Quote:

1 Cor. 11:3-12

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. ... [7] For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. [8] For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. [9] Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

October 31, 2011

can everyone please read this...

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/489404/

October 31, 2011

Could you please tell me what "newer versions" you have in mind?

Actually, it is the newer translations that are more likely to place the last clause of v. 33 with verse 34.

Consider the following:

[snip]

I have at least 20 more translations which read the same way.

....Consider my translations, most copy writtened 1999 or later-

33for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as it is in all churches of the saints.

34Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.21st Century King James Version (KJ21)Copyright © 1994 by Deuel Enterprises, Inc.

3For God is not [a God] of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.

34Let [your] women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not permitted to them to speak; but to be in subjection, as the law also says. Darby Translation (DARBY)Public Domain

33For God is not the God of dissension, but of peace: as also I teach in all the churches of the saints.

34Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith.Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.King James Version (KJV)Public Domain

When we worship the right way, God doesn't stir us up into confusion; he brings us into harmony. This goes for all the churches—no exceptions.

34-36Wives must not disrupt worship, talking when they should be listening, asking questions that could more appropriately be asked of their husbands at home. God's Book of the law guides our manners and customs here. Wives have no license to use the time of worship for unwarranted speaking. Do you—both women and men—imagine that you're a sacred oracle determining what's right and wrong? Do you think everything revolves around you? The Message (MSG)

33 for God is not a God of confusion but of [a]peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just asthe Law also says.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

34 Women[a] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

34 Women[a] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. New International Version (NIV)

33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

34 Let your[a] women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.New King James Version (NKJV)Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

3 God does not want everyone speaking at the same time in church meetings. He wants peace. All the churches of God’s people worship this way.

34 Women should not be allowed to speak in church meetings. They are to obey this teaching. The Law says this also.

33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the meetings of God’s holy people.[a]

34 Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. New Living Translation (NLT)

33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

Today's New International Version (TNIV)

33 for why God is not of dissension, but of peace; as I teach in all churches of holy men.

34 Women in churches be still; for it is not suffered to them to speak, but to be subject, as the law saith.Wycliffe Bible (WYC)2001 by Terence P. Noble

33for God is not [a God] of tumult, but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.

34Your women in the assemblies let them be silent, for it hath not been permitted to them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith;Young's Literal Translation (YLT)Public Domain

October 31, 2011

Quote:

In a message aimed at Seventh-day Adventists in the United States, Canada and Bermuda, North American Division church president Pastor Dan Jackson had a specific charge: “Learn to love one another, learn to live with one another, learn that other people can disagree with you and still be your brother or sister in Christ,” he said in remarks delivered on October 29, 2011.

October 31, 2011

Originally Posted By: John317

Could you please tell me what "newer versions" you have in mind?

Actually, it is the newer translations that are more likely to place the last clause of v. 33 with verse 34.

Consider the following:

[snip]

I have at least 20 more translations which read the same way.

....Consider my translations, most copy writtened 1999 or later-

Actually, the only ones done since 1999 are the New Living Translation, the Message, and the TNIV.

Are you counting the King James Versions? You've included 3 of them.

Even the NKJV was revised in the 1980s.

I noticed you included the Wycliffe Bible (WYC)2001 by Terence P. Noble. Wasn't most of the work in that translation done centuries ago? It is mostly just an updated version of a work done in the 1300s based on the Latin text.

Darby's translation is from the late 1800s.

Douey-Rheims is also from the late 1800s.

The Message is not really a translation but a free paraphrase.

The NASB was done in the 1970s.

The NIV UK was done in the 1970s and early 1980s.

The New LIfe Version was done in 1969.

Robert Young's Literal was done in the 1800s.

You included the NIV:

Quote:

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by Biblica

34 Women[a] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

However, the New International Version (1973, 1978, 1984) reads, "As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says."

Perhaps they made a change in the 2011 edition. I haven't read it.

The only ones on your list, then, that are actually from 1999 or later are the New Living Translation, the Message, and the TNIV. That means only 3 out of the 13 are from 1999 or later. Many of them are pretty old.

I have all of them (except for the 21st Century KJV) and enjoy reading them. The KJV is still my favorite.

Like I said before, it's generally the modern translations that connect the last part of verse 33 with verse 34. By modern, I mean the translations made over the last 50 years.

Have you seen the comments on these verses (1 Cor. 14: 34) in the SDA Bible Commentary? It is worth checking out.

Notice the statement: "Some editors and translators connect the phrase 'as in all the churches of the saints' with v. 34 (See RSV). It is impossible to decide with finality to which clause the phrase belongs."

I think it's significant that the commentary concedes "the injunction for women to keep silence" was a general custom. "That the custom was general may also be inferred from 1 Tim. 2: 11, 12, where, without singling out any particular church, Paul admonishes: 'Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.'"

This means that even if we translate verses 33 and 34 like the KJV does (and I have no problem with it), we would still conclude that the injunction for women to keep silience in the churches was a general custom throughout the churches, and not one due to a local problem.

October 31, 2011

I'd be interested knowing how you understand Paul's instructions in 1 Cor. 11 and 14 and 1 Tim. 2.

October 31, 2011

October 31, 2011

I support everything Ellen White said on the topic. She encouraged women to speak in church whenever they could.

But Paul says :Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be submissive, as also says the law.

...But I permit not a woman to teach..

Help me to understand your position here. You can't agree with Paul and accept Ellen White perspective at the same time. The contradict. Are you saying you think Paul 's counsel was only applicable for his context and time?

Quote:

I believe Paul's main point in his letters is that women in the church are to be subordinate.

Agreed.

Paul gives specific instructions as to how women do this. Don't speak, don't teach men etc. It was his view that to allow women to teach men and to speak publicly as a leader would usurp the position of a man. Submission was to be practiced by not speaking and not teaching men. Correct? If a woman is speaking in church whenever she can and teaching men is not being submissive according to Paul. Am I right?

Perhaps God has granted the SDA church a Variance!

October 31, 2011

Quote:

Perhaps God has granted the SDA church a Variance!

November 1, 2011

Good post.

The word and the word alone should govern the church. Sola scriptura strongly suggests that women should not be pastors of the ecclesiastical body. As a result, the issue of declining or the inability to attract new members should not influence the church to modify our biblical understandings on this issue.

The word of God should be, and cannot be, influenced by contemporary world standards. If we allow the world to dictate our actions, why dare to call the SDA a remnant. A remnant is one that remains constant on matters which have been clearly delineated in the word of God. The Apostles, and most importantly, the example of Jesus has provided the church adequate direction on how we should proceed on this issue. Though some will argue that not allowing women to be ordained is an oxymoron when considering that the church was founded by a woman. I say to them, simply, that the bible provides examples of prophetess, but not a single line mentioned for the ordination of women.

If we modify the church's pastoral directives on the ordination of women, than indirectly, the church is suggesting that the word of God is a 'living' document in a constitutional sense. For example, the constitution of the U.S. has been amended to correct particular injustices eg. the right for women to vote. A constitution should have the latitude to modify codification or it will have the capacity to collapse under in its own rigidity. However, to modify the biblical context, would be an admission by the church that Christ did not have the foresight for providing a more clear direction for the future church. In effect, this will create a latent ambiguity on other issues. Make no mistake, if we modify any of our long standing principles, especially on those which have been expounded in the word of God, it can be and will be used as fodder for those who wish to dismiss the church's claim of being the remnant. The word of God does not need modification, and Jesus as God, being our example does not error. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and forever Hebrews 13:8.

With regard to the ineffectivness of the SDA for attracting new members, it should not be the responsibility of the Church to convict souls. That responsibility solely belongs to the Holy Spirit. The church's position on membership should be only to deliver the word and the word alone, uninfluenced by a secular world. His ways are not our ways.

November 1, 2011

Another good post.

Quote:

Paul identifies her as the minister of the church at Cenchrea, a leader of many, including Paul himself.

Now here we have the heart of the matter. Note the "the minister." As if it's in the Bible.

Political correctness is not factual correctness. On the contrary, I know of none of the precepts of political correctness being factually correct. It should come as no surprise that the proponents of political correctness play fast and loose with facts. In by far the majority of English translations Phoebe is called "a servant of the church." The Greek word is apparently "diakonon". It's translated as deaconess in some translations. Ministrant is used in Young's Literal Translation.

The English “minister” comes from the same Latin word, meaning servant.

Even cursory research of Romans 16:1 shows that there is no way one can even approach calling Phoebe "the minister" of the church at Cenchrea. Similarly there is no way one can even remotely say Paul said she was "the leader" of many, including Paul himself. Apparently it may be that she was the helper or patron of many, including Paul himself.

Calling Phoebe "the minister" goes beyond cherry picking - selective presentation of facts to make a case - which is one of the corner stones of misleading people. To present the least likely of several possibilities as fact - what is that? Is that dishonesty?

When will the politically correct ever use a straight forward, clear Bible passage about which there is no question to support their specious arguments?

You may not like what I've said, but is it not true?

November 1, 2011

Quote:

Perhaps God has granted the SDA church a Variance!

We are at variance that is for sure. Whether God has granted it is another question.

November 1, 2011

Perhaps God has granted the SDA church a Variance!

I'll wait a while and see if there's anyone else on the Forum who knows the biblical answer to your question. I'll be amazed if they don't.

November 1, 2011

We are at variance that is for sure. Whether God has granted it is another question.

Yes, for sure God grants the church the ability to be at varience on biblical subjects. He allows false doctrines and false practices to enter into the church to serve His purposes. They reveal people's motives and the spiritual condition of the church.

November 1, 2011

Paul gives specific instructions as to how women do this. Don't speak, don't teach men etc. It was his view that to allow women to teach men and to speak publicly as a leader would usurp the position of a man. Submission was to be practiced by not speaking and not teaching men. Correct?

Earlier I said:

Quote:

I'd be interested knowing how you understand Paul's instructions in 1 Cor. 11 and 14 and 1 Tim. 2.

I have written answers to your question many times before on various threads over the years.

I don't mind repeaing my answer, but before I do, would you please give your understanding of the verses referred to?

As an SDA pastor, you must have studied them many times and given them a great deal of thought. What, for instance, did they teach you about them at Andrews University, and what have you thought about them since then? Did you ever preach on them, and if so, what were some of your main points?

November 1, 2011

Quote:

I have written answers to your question many times before on various threads over the years.

Errr I don't recall that, certainly not on this topic. You must be thinking of another poster.

I'd be happy to give my perspective on the passages you mentioned but I really need to be clear on how you respond to what I posted earlier.

November 1, 2011

I have written answers to your question many times before on various threads over the years.

Quote:

Errr I don't recall that, certainly not on this topic. You must be thinking of another poster.

I'm not saying that I answered a post of yours. I am saying that I answered your question, actually quite a few times, on the ClubAdventist threads before. Check out the Women's Ordination discussion.

November 1, 2011

Help me to understand your position here. You can't agree with Paul and accept Ellen White perspective at the same time. The contradict. Are you saying you think Paul 's counsel was only applicable for his context and time?

I'll be glad to but I asked you first to explain your views about 1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor. 11 and 14.

Post#489489 was before your question. AS Bravus says, no fair asking a question after being asked a question. And that is especially true given the fact that I have already written dozens of posts on the topic you are asking about. I thought you read the posts on the discussion about women in ministry.

Here:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/350721.html

Maybe not, though. In any case, I will answer your questions directly but it would be good if you could answer mine first since I asked first. Sound reasonable? Sure hope so. :-)

November 1, 2011

I really don't like to do this but here goes.....

In #489391 I asked two specific questions that you didn't answer. This was before #489489.

To quote you:

"it would be good if you could answer mine first since I asked first. Sound reasonable? Sure hope so. :-)"

From my perspective, I was seeking clarification on your position. I want to understand the practical application of a position that seeks to uphold Paul's counsel. Your general responses seems to indicate the whilst saying you uphold Paul's counsel you are stepping away from a literal application of the texts.

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