Courage to invite non-SDA speakers

[lazarus]

I just sent an email to thank one our SDA leaders who invited Dr Leonard Sweet to an Adventist Pastors gathering. I thanked him for his courage and foresight.

[ClubV12]

It's an issue that needs careful consideration as to the speaker, time and place. I would not recommend throwing open the doors for anyone, anytime. But that applies to good qualified Adventist speakers as well, some discretion must apply depending on the needs of the flock.

We had a nice well respected Ph.D. Adventist lady give the sermon one Sabbath. I hope she NEVER comes back to my church. In fact, I would walk out, right down the middle of the church, when she started to speak if she comes back. And shake the dust off my shoes when I got to the foyer. :)

[Overaged]

It's an issue that needs careful consideration as to the speaker, time and place. I would not recommend throwing open the doors for anyone, anytime. But that applies to good qualified Adventist speakers as well, some discretion must apply depending on the needs of the flock.

We had a nice well respected Ph.D. Adventist lady give the sermon one Sabbath. I hope she NEVER comes back to my church. In fact, I would walk out, right down the middle of the church, when she started to speak if she comes back. And shake the dust off my shoes when I got to the foyer.

I agree with everything you said; I would just add that Lazarus made the distinction that it was an Adventist Pastor's meeting, which would be a little different than a Sabbath morning sermon before the entire congregation. In following with the principle you outlined, yes, a little discernment would go a long ways. It could be that some who would be invited to the pastor's meeting, should not be doing the Sabbath sermon...

[Tom Wetmore]

It's an issue that needs careful consideration as to the speaker, time and place. I would not recommend throwing open the doors for anyone, anytime. But that applies to good qualified Adventist speakers as well, some discretion must apply depending on the needs of the flock.

We had a nice well respected Ph.D. Adventist lady give the sermon one Sabbath. I hope she NEVER comes back to my church. In fact, I would walk out, right down the middle of the church, when she started to speak if she comes back. And shake the dust off my shoes when I got to the foyer.

So what was it about her or her message that upset you so greatly?

[ClubV12]

She basically trashed Sister Whites writings and placed herself above them in her superior knowledge of modern events and higher education.

You know, like we see here on the forum from time to time, all the "intellectual" reasons why Sister Whites counsel doesn't apply today. HERE I expect to see that. From the pulpit, I did not.

[fccool]

Quote:

She basically trashed Sister Whites writings and placed herself above them in her superior knowledge of modern events and higher education.

I doubt that any SDA pastor would invite such speaker back. So, I doubt you have to worry about that.

This doctrine is mandated from conference down, so I doubt that conference would allow any pastor, if he desires to keep his job, to promote ideas that diminish Adventist position concerning her status, role, and view of her writings.

[olger]

Leonard Sweet is a great person to listen to if you desire to grow in emergent interfaith confusion!

indeed,

g

[lazarus]

Leonard Sweet is a great person to listen to if you desire to grow in emergent interfaith confusion!

g

Have you ever heard him speak? Have you ever read one of his books?

[Kountzer]

I ask the same question, to myself, that I always ask about acclaimed non adventist speakers:

If he or she is so spiritually wise and sage, then why do I know about the 3rd angels msg, and the importance of the sabbath, and they do not?

[SivartM]

I ask the same question, to myself, that I always ask about acclaimed non adventist speakers:

If he or she is so spiritually wise and sage, then why do I know about the 3rd angels msg, and the importance of the sabbath, and they do not?

So without knowing anything about someone except that they are not an Adventist, you can claim to be more wise than they are because they don't believe all of the things that you do?

You believe in the Sabbath and three angels and they don't; what about the more important things, like justice, mercy, and faith? How do you know that there's nothing you might be able to learn from them about those?

[fccool]

I think the concern is the alteration and purity of doctrine. Any religion to a sense depends on such concepts and fears that small change could result in avalanche of subsequent changes.

You will quite often hear things like, "Today we have drums in church, and tomorrow we'll be told that Bible is not the Word of God. No, thank you."

It's just mental slippery slope arguments that necessitate such beliefs. I think that's why people at large stay away from church. They think, well... "You expect me to make all of the necessary changes without even a slightest compromise of my preferences, no thank you."

To which a fundamentalist would reply, "He would rather be in the world, than come and learn the truths of God. They reject God".

Nop. They reject canonized liturgical adherence that only change when they are miles behind and about to die. It has always been the case. "No we won't change. The church is a sacred ground"... a century later "Well, maybe it's not so bad after all, but that next thing is "evil" now".

[Overaged]

There are times when there is a lot more religion in a "Sunday-keeper," than in an Adventist to be sure. There's just no gettin away from that one. I like the last question that you ask; because that's the one I always ask. Kountzer's question is more like a knife in the forhead of an "opponent" rather than a witness of Christ. I say this, agreeing with what Olger said; that there are some holes in his "emergent" theology.

[Overaged]

I ask the same question, to myself, that I always ask about acclaimed non adventist speakers:

If he or she is so spiritually wise and sage, then why do I know about the 3rd angels msg, and the importance of the sabbath, and they do not?

Some of our Pioneers, were Sunday keepers. Keep that in mind as you jump so quick to condemn them.

[fccool]

I think there's this erroneous concept that non-SDA speakers can do such a tremendous damage to Adventist faith that public schools, TV, radio, and internet somehow don't do the 6 days they are out of the church setting. If Adventist faith is so weak that one speaker can skew they belief system so terribly, then what is their faith worth?

May I remind you that much of the protestant beliefs came from a Catholic guy who thought that Jews were evil, and that Revelation and Daniel were uninspired books? That's the guy to whom reformation and birth of protestantism is attributed to.

[lazarus]

I ask the same question, to myself, that I always ask about acclaimed non adventist speakers:

If he or she is so spiritually wise and sage, then why do I know about the 3rd angels msg, and the importance of the sabbath, and they do not?

Tagging on....Thinking about this whole discussion I have come realize that the problem that many of us have with non-SDA speakers is the fact that they are alive!!! Martin Luther and Martin Luther King, as far as I know, did not embrace the Sabbath or the three angels message but I'm sure we'd agree they have something of value to share with us as regards to truth. Am I right or am I wrong?

I guess we'd have to wait 20 years and watch Sweet on DVD then it would be OK.

[Tom Wetmore]

LOL

I have said the same thing about music. It's sanctification by death. But I think musicians have to be dead at least a hundred years for their music to be sanctified.

[abelisle]

Someone important said the truth shall set you free. But how can that happen if one limits the potential opportunities to hear "the truth"?

Oh I forgot - Adventists have ownership of "the truth" - sorry, I'll go away now.

[ClubV12]

I don't even read much of the Adventist ABC books anymore. The writings of Ellen White are vast, important and contain critical information for a spiritual lifestyle in great detail.

Recently there was a special series of meetings on the dangers of movies and how Hollywood really worked. I didn't bother to go, didn't need to. I've read enough in the Testimonies AND the bible to understand movies are not an issue, I don't watch them anymore, period. I don't need a "seminar" to explain it.

All these "good books" for the most part just echo what the prophet has to say. Why not go to the source first? I don't have a lot of desire to hear from speakers outside the Adventist church, it's OK, but I don't need to search through to dumpster in hopes of finding some precious gem. It's much more likely I'll find it in the original source.

So, yes in many ways you are correct abelisle, Adventist have SUBSTANTIALLY more truth than the world has to offer. The problem is, we ignore the mine of precious gems, the source. We to often then feel compelled to search the world, in case we missed something. I assure you, we have indeed "missed something" and it is right under our nose, the vast writings of Sister White.

When I finish my in depth study of her writings, maybe I'll branch out a bit more. But that could take a few decades searching the source material.

[SivartM]

I don't have a lot of desire to hear from speakers outside the Adventist church, it's OK, but I don't need to search through to dumpster in hopes of finding some precious gem. It's much more likely I'll find it in the original source.

It's this kind of analogy that worries me about Adventists' relationships with people outside of their circle. Other people are not "dumpsters", they are like you. They just believe different things, have different reasons for doing so, and may (though shocking) be right. No matter who happens to be more correct, there is a lot that we can learn from simply listening to others as human beings and not as opinion machines for us to analyze and judge accordingly.

[phkrause]

I think there's this erroneous concept that non-SDA speakers can do such a tremendous damage to Adventist faith that public schools, TV, radio, and internet somehow don't do the 6 days they are out of the church setting. If Adventist faith is so weak that one speaker can skew they belief system so terribly, then what is their faith worth?

I agree 100% with you on this, because if are faith is that weak we better not even get out of the house.

[phkrause]

May I remind you that much of the protestant beliefs came from a Catholic guy who thought that Jews were evil, and that Revelation and Daniel were uninspired books? That's the guy to whom reformation and birth of protestantism is attributed to.

On this I have no idea what your trying to say.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

It's this kind of analogy that worries me about Adventists' relationships with people outside of their circle. Other people are not "dumpsters", they are like you. They just believe different things, have different reasons for doing so, and may (though shocking) be right. No matter who happens to be more correct, there is a lot that we can learn from simply listening to others as human beings and not as opinion machines for us to analyze and judge accordingly.

Excellent!! Very well expressed! Are we followers of Christ or a cult? Religious cults can be feaful of their own shadows, if God be for us, who can be against us?

I will promote TW's book suggestion again!!! For all of those with concerns about their beliefs and others contaminating, please read the book!!!

[ClubV12]

There is a lot we can learn from the Spirit of Prophecy, if we would actually read it...

Just trying to bring some balance to this idea that we can learn much from others. There is a lot you could learn from Buddhists, I suppose, but I'm not about to jump in THAT "dumpster" and start separating the trash in search of some gem of truth! Choose your source carefully.

I am reminded of Dr. Kellogg's book, which the Adventist of his time gave excellent reviews and encouraged all to read it. Ellen Whites view on the book? SO dangerous we should not even read it, let alone study it! I won't even mention the name of it.

[phkrause]

There is a lot we can learn from the Spirit of Prophecy, if we would actually read it...

Just trying to bring some balance to this idea that we can learn much from others. There is a lot you could learn from Buddhists, I suppose, but I'm not about to jump in THAT "dumpster" and start separating the trash in search of some gem of truth! Choose your source carefully.

I am reminded of Dr. Kellogg's book, which the Adventist of his time gave excellent reviews and encouraged all to read it. Ellen Whites view on the book? SO dangerous we should not even read it, let alone study it! I won't even mention the name of it.

Not disagreeing with you. You make some really good points, but you do have to remember that back in EGW time the church was just getting started and there were probably many weak believers.

[ClubV12]

As it concerns Kelloggs book, it was, is and remains a very dangerous book to this day. It is interesting to note the Sky has read, studied and supports Kelloggs book. The great pioneers of that time were certainly well educated to scripture.

Ellen White HERSELF did not at first discern the danger the book posed. It was revealed to her!! A.T. Jones not only recommended it, he LEFT the church to follow Kellogg! All the great leaders of that time recommended. These were solid men, not at all weak in the faith. They were decieved by it subtle content of error, the book contained many Sister White quotes to support them!!

Pantheism. All though, there are some who believe, have read and studied the book today that suggest it's not "really pantheism", it just "sort of like it". That poor Kellogg was misunderstood and treated badly by the church.

THIS book, as Sister White calls it, was the "Alpha Apostasy", the Omega will follow. The Alpha saw some great men leave the church and walk into darkness. So it will be again. I wonder, what "good book" will be a major player in the Omega? Or which "good speaker"?

So deceptive even Ellen White did not at first understand the danger!!! WOW!!!