How Protestant and Catholic Churches Will Form Union

[John317]

Who wrote that in the R&H?

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Percy Tilson Magan.

The same Percy Tilson Magan Ellen White "took into her home"...

...The same Percy who accepted the offer of Education from the SDA's.

pecry rejected his former religious training in favor of SDAism.

It doesn't matter who wrote it-- it is irrelevant today, because it no longer represents what the Seventh-day Adventist Church believes and teaches. In fact, it did not fully and truly represent the SDA church at the time it was printed in 1909. In 1907, the editor of the R&H wrote that the SDA Church believes in the Trinity. So, while many in the SDA Church still rejected the Trinity, many more accepted it. No church changes overnight; it took years for the change to be made, but today the Church is solidly behind the Trinity.

It's important to recognize, though, that the SDA view of the Trinity differs in some significant ways from the view of it as expressed in the creeds. That's because the creeds base their language and concepts on Greek philosophy, whereas the SDA church has based its views of the Godhead on the Bible. (See Seventh-day Adventists Believe... 28 Fundamental Beliefs, chapters 2 to 5.)

[John317]

Percy Tilson Magan.

The same Percy Tilson Magan Ellen White "took into her home"...

Ellen and James White took many people into their home, including John H. Kellogg and a number of other people who taught contrary to Ellen White's writings. The fact that Ellen White was a friend of someone or that they lived in her home is no evidence that she supported what they taught.

[ClubV12]

As I understand it the pioneers strongly rejected any "creed" when it was suggested the church should have one. Their view point was that the church needed to be open to new light and the leading of the Holy Spirit. There were wise enough to realize they did not have all the truth and were open to receiving and adjusting to new concepts and doctrines as things became more clear in time.

As we should be in our personal life, ready to adjust and accept the things the Holy Spirit may convict us of. That is on a very personal level, what's OK for me may be sin to the person standing next to me. What is NOT sin today, for me, MAY be sin tommorow as my understanding grows.

I didn't sell my race car the minute I joined the church, but I DID suspect I MIGHT have to, and that was quite troubling at the time. But the Lord removed that burden from me until the time was right. THEN I had to deal with it, take that next step. It wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be when I first joined the church. I had changed, I saw the car in a whole new light, and was ashamed at the time and money I had thrown away in pursuit of some pretty ribbon, some false god. I couldn't get that car out of life fast enough once the decision was made. :)

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John3:17

....what does it mean to be ready spiritually?

Originally Posted By: miz3

... it means not REJECTING THE LIGHT GOD GIVES YOU ABOUT HIMSELF.

This is certainly true.

Here's some light God has given:

1 Thes. 5:19-21

Do not quench the Spirit. [20] Do not despise prophecies, [21] but test everything; hold fast what is good.

Ephes. 4:11-15

And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, [12] to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, [13] until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, [14] so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. [15] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,

Rev. 14:6-9

Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. [7] And he said with a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water."

[8] Another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality."

[9] And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, [10] he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Originally Posted By: miz3

If you are ready then all else does not matter.

Being "ready" in the very last days prior to the coming of Christ is different from being ready during the previous 2000 years. The reason is that those who are translated when Christ returns must go through the worst period of human history that ever was. That includes the test regarding the mark of the beast as referred to in Rev. 14: 9ff.

There's a sealing that must take place beforehand, and people won't be sealed by the sealing angel at that time unless they have overcome by God's power all known sins in their lives. If people are practicing sin, the sealing angels will leave them behind. See Rev. 7 and 14.

Originally Posted By: miz3

That means SDA Eschatology with its charts and scenarios is irrelevant and does nothing for you.

God gave us the prophecies and the Spirit of prophecy (i.e., the writings of Ellen White) in order to know the signs of Christ's soon coming. He wants us to know what's coming. It's Satan who wants people to be found unprepapred and to be deceived. Almost the entire world will be deceived because they ignored the abundant knowledge God provided about Christ's return. The wicked will be working and playing when the end comes without any awareness, just as happened to the people of Sodom. On the other hand, God's people-- the few-- will be fully prepared because they have been faithfully watching the signs Christ's told them about.

The texts you are quoting do not refer even in slightest sense to Ellen White.

You are trying to force this because you want it to be true. The Bible no where refers to Ellen White either directly or indirectly.

You get your views only from Ellen White and then you try to use her views to force a meaning from the Bible that is not anywhere near what the Bible is actually saying.

This is typical of those who claim to have a prophet for their ".org".

Then you claim that those who do not see Ellen White as a prophet are disobeying 1Thessalonians chapter five. If you take this stand then John317 you have to also accept the other ".orgs" prophets. Otherwise you are despising prophets.

Surely you can see how ridiculous your argument is. The Bible does not support Ellen White and her writings.

Second you are trying to claim that the "last days" have a special significance and thus requires something more than just "being ready".

What is it about "being ready" that is not understandable. Either you are "ready" or you are "not ready". If your "ready" then you are "ready" regardless of the conditions on the ground or in the air. You are also "ready" regardless of whether you know the conditions that are coming or you do not know what is coming. Again, "ready" is "ready" plain and simple.

Again, John317, your are trying to use extremely bad logic in order to support your view of Ellen White as a prophet and the SDA Eschatological views of "the time of the end" which are actually solely based on the writings of Ellen White and not even remotely on the Bible.

[Gustave]

It doesn't matter who wrote it-- it is irrelevant today, because it no longer represents what the Seventh-day Adventist Church believes and teaches.

[BobRyan]

“When the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held by them in common, shall influence the state to enforce their decrees and to sustain their institutions, then Protestant America will have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy, and the infliction of civil penalties upon dissenters will inevitably result.“ The Great Controversy, 444-445.

The above quote informs us that the image beast will have been formed when protestant America will:

- have united upon points of doctrine that are held by them in common

- Influence the state to enforce laws to sustain their institutions

Once the above two will have been fulfilled, then the image of the beast will have been formed. The question is, what are the points of doctrine that protestant America are to unite on?

That is not the question for SDAs. SDAs already know the Bible doctrines that we accept and that many others reject.

The real question for SDAs is what is the sequence of events leading up to such laws?

What is the nature of the law in question?

We have been told that the Sunday law in question goes far beyond any state-level Sunday law in the US in the past 200 years. Before it ever gets to "death decree" status (a decree that when setup - launches the 7 last plagues) - it gets to the point of applying civil penalties to Sabbath KEEPING not merely Sunday alcohol sales or even Sunday shops being opened. This goes WAYYYYY beyond anything anyone has seen in the past 200 years even at the state level!!

It would be truly remarkable if the nation passed "a Sunday Law" where no alcohol could be sold on Sundays - nation wide. But that would only be a Sunday law such as we have had in the past. Nothing too surprising except we are headed the wrong way - repealing blue law after blue law. This is NOT the grand event predicted in our eschatology folks!

In fact last week Georgia repealed blue law prohibitions against alcohol sales on Sunday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law#Georgia

It is doubtful well informed SDAs would vote to have alcohol sales on Sunday or any other day.

So now that we have in focus the true bizarre nature of the Sunday law in question - what on earth could bend and wrench the US to go down such a road. A road we are at present - not inclined at all to go down.

The current course for America is the Canadian and EU course of blind-faith-evolutionism and dead-end empty-church post-christian-age secularism. The exact OPPOSITE of bizzaro Sunday legislation such as the US has never seen in the past 200 years.

So that brings us to the much overlooked - much ignored statement in Rev 13 that the SIGNS AND WONDERS event PRECEDES the image to the beast!!

This is huge!

It is like the disciples ignoring the fact that Jesus told them in Matt 16 that He would be tried, and tortured, killed and then resurrect on the 3rd day!

Why do we keep turning a blind eye to this detail!!

Wake up folks!

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Does it not make sense that Adventism will ally with militant Islamic forces?

...As a "theological union" already appears to exist between the two bodies of Islam and SDA.

Truly a clueless statement.

It is like the JWS claiming that the SDA church will line up with dark-ages torture and "exterminate heretics" (LATERAN IV) Catholicism because we accept Yahweh as a Name of God and also we accept God in three persons -

Gustave is using an "any ol' excuse will do" style of SDA bashing instead of taking time to actually think about his accusations.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

It doesn't matter who wrote it-- it is irrelevant today, because it no longer represents what the Seventh-day Adventist Church believes and teaches. In fact, it did not fully and truly represent the SDA church at the time it was printed in 1909.

Recall that during the dark ages - the RCC made arguments of the form "if you do not bad mouth and slander the groups I despise you are not really Christian".

Be careful here.

Notice that the statement Gustave quotes does not actually affirm or endorse any militant Islamic teaching - all it does is point to some areas where Islam is not entirely wrong.

As it turns out - SDAs admit to a few areas where the RCC itself is not entirely wrong.

Gustave is just resorting to that old dark ages method of "conjure the booggyman and anyone who does not despise whom you despise is also an evil heretic".

This is all kind of odd for him - given the RCC's recent joining with Islam at the level of the Pope.

What we DID NOT see in Gustav's article was the SDA GC president bowing to the Koran or kissing it.

By contrast we have THIS -

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A055rcKoran.htm

Now given the RCC's own claim that its Lateran IV "death to heretics" laws are still infallible, and given the Islamic "death to infidels" dark-ages tradition that still lingers, and given all this bowing and kissing of the Koran by the Pope - what denomination is more "likely" in the future to revert to its old so called "infallible" methods. Methods that Islamic extremists are still borrowing.

And the even bigger question - why would Gustave want to bring this subject up??!!

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

Bob says,

"The real question for SDAs is what is the sequence of events leading up to such laws?"

Timing of the death decree.

As I understand it, it is at midnight when Gods people are "delivered". A voice from heaven announces the day and hour of Jesus coming. This happens just after the wicked are given the command (law) to kill the Saints because they are responsible for bringing about all the worlds destruction, confusion, war, etc.

I place this "deliverance" as occuring during the fifth plague. It is reasonable to think the World Wide Sunday Law has already been enacted to varying degree's (buy and sell at least), the death decree being the final aspect of that law. I also assume the death decree will be passed into law, but it won't be effective for a period of time following that. As is typical with any law, a few weeks, months, perhaps only days, but some period of time.

Question: Some say the plagues start when Jesus "stands up" and put's on His robes of wrath. Now it seems to me at that time probation for ALL the world has now been closed. I ASSUME one of the big reasons for the plagues is for mankind to see their error and accept Christ as their Saviour. Therefore, the plagues could not start AFTER the close of probation, they must start before Jesus "stands up".

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Nich

“When the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held by them in common, shall influence the state to enforce their decrees and to sustain their institutions, then Protestant America will have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy, and the infliction of civil penalties upon dissenters will inevitably result.“ The Great Controversy, 444-445.

The above quote informs us that the image beast will have been formed when protestant America will:

- have united upon points of doctrine that are held by them in common

- Influence the state to enforce laws to sustain their institutions

Once the above two will have been fulfilled, then the image of the beast will have been formed. The question is, what are the points of doctrine that protestant America are to unite on?

That is not the question for SDAs. SDAs already know the Bible doctrines that we accept and that many others reject.

The real question for SDAs is what is the sequence of events leading up to such laws?

What is the nature of the law in question?

We have been told that the Sunday law in question goes far beyond any state-level Sunday law in the US in the past 200 years. Before it ever gets to "death decree" status (a decree that when setup - launches the 7 last plagues) - it gets to the point of applying civil penalties to Sabbath KEEPING not merely Sunday alcohol sales or even Sunday shops being opened. This goes WAYYYYY beyond anything anyone has seen in the past 200 years even at the state level!!

It would be truly remarkable if the nation passed "a Sunday Law" where no alcohol could be sold on Sundays - nation wide. But that would only be a Sunday law such as we have had in the past. Nothing too surprising except we are headed the wrong way - repealing blue law after blue law. This is NOT the grand event predicted in our eschatology folks!

In fact last week Georgia repealed blue law prohibitions against alcohol sales on Sunday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law#Georgia

It is doubtful well informed SDAs would vote to have alcohol sales on Sunday or any other day.

So now that we have in focus the true bizarre nature of the Sunday law in question - what on earth could bend and wrench the US to go down such a road. A road we are at present - not inclined at all to go down.

The current course for America is the Canadian and EU course of blind-faith-evolutionism and dead-end empty-church post-christian-age secularism. The exact OPPOSITE of bizzaro Sunday legislation such as the US has never seen in the past 200 years.

So that brings us to the much overlooked - much ignored statement in Rev 13 that the SIGNS AND WONDERS event PRECEDES the image to the beast!!

This is huge!

It is like the disciples ignoring the fact that Jesus told them in Matt 16 that He would be tried, and tortured, killed and then resurrect on the 3rd day!

Why do we keep turning a blind eye to this detail!!

Wake up folks!

in Christ,

Bob

The question for SDA is: Do you know God? (John 17:3).

SDA know Ellen White, SDA know Eschatology, SDA know the Sabbath, SDA know a whole lot of things.

However the question still persists: Do SDA know God?

At this point in time and at this point in general I would say that SDA know very little about God?

Why?

Because they are toooooo wrapped up in themselves as that "little remnant", tooooo wrapped up in their charts and timelines, toooo wrapped up in knowing what Ellen white says, tooooo wrapped up in knowing everything else but lacking greatly in knowing God.

[BobRyan]

Bob says,

"The real question for SDAs is what is the sequence of events leading up to such laws?"

Timing of the death decree.

As I understand it, it is at midnight when Gods people are "delivered". A voice from heaven announces the day and hour of Jesus coming. This happens just after the wicked are given the command (law) to kill the Saints because they are responsible for bringing about all the worlds destruction, confusion, war, etc.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Bob says,

"The real question for SDAs is what is the sequence of events leading up to such laws?"

Timing of the death decree.

As I understand it, it is at midnight when Gods people are "delivered". A voice from heaven announces the day and hour of Jesus coming. This happens just after the wicked are given the command (law) to kill the Saints because they are responsible for bringing about all the worlds destruction, confusion, war, etc.

The death decree goes into effect long after the 7 last plagues start - possibly 6th plague time.

No question about that - but when is the law passed?

As we know laws can be passed today that do not go into effect for a few months.

Quote:

I ASSUME one of the big reasons for the plagues is for mankind to see their error and accept Christ as their Saviour. Therefore, the plagues could not start AFTER the close of probation, they must start before Jesus "stands up".

In Rev 15:8 God says that Christ has to leave the MHP of the heavenly sanctuary SO THAT the 7 last plagues can be poured out.

His intercession ends in Rev 15:8.

in Christ,

Bob

Wow SDA not able to get their timelines straight. I thought SDA timelines were already fixed down to the last detail.

[ClubV12]

The exact timeline of the final last day events has never been fixed, this is why so many people of so many different faiths try to create charts and such with their unique take on the timeline.

Adventists have the best handle on the general timing of events, but this is still much that we, or anyone, has been told in detail.

Bob, I see your point about when the plagues start, which has always raised the question, WHY do the plagues come? What purpose do they serve if not to convict and convert some of the wicked? If they start AFTER probation closes, there will no martyrs because nothing would be gained by the blood. The purpose must be for the purification of the Saints. To realize their complete helplessness. With probation closed, they are "sealed" already (as the plagues begin), yet they continue in agony of spirit during this final purification process. Until they are delivered, 5th or 6th plague, somewhere right in there.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Does it not make sense that Adventism will ally with militant Islamic forces?

...As a "theological union" already appears to exist between the two bodies of Islam and SDA.

Truly a clueless statement.

It is like the JWS claiming that the SDA church will line up with dark-ages torture and "exterminate heretics" (LATERAN IV) Catholicism because we accept Yahweh as a Name of God and also we accept God in three persons -

Gustave is using an "any ol' excuse will do" style of SDA bashing instead of taking time to actually think about his accusations.

in Christ,

Bob

What's clueless is promulgating "God in three Persons"...

...While maintaining God the Son "could have eternally ceased to exist".

...And at the same time saying the same isn't possible for God the Father.

...That's clueless & makes the Son NOT GOD.

Malachi 3,6

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed

Hebrews 13,8

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever

James 1,17

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning

Those three Texts and over 70 other equally explicit ones...

...Are more than 'any ol excuse' Bob.

...Is Scripture really the "Word of God" or is it simply a commentary for Ellen White.

As far as the Pope supporting Islamic beliefs I would love to have a discussion with you on that...

...However the SDA's are KNOWN for supporting the Doctrines of Islam.

...Here ya go. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU6-rKqfigM&feature=player_embedded

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Truly a clueless statement.

It is like the JWS claiming that the SDA church will line up with dark-ages torture and "exterminate heretics" (LATERAN IV) Catholicism because we accept Yahweh as a Name of God and also we accept God in three persons -

Gustave is using an "any ol' excuse will do" style of SDA bashing instead of taking time to actually think about his accusations.

Originally Posted By: Gustav said

As far as the Pope supporting Islamic beliefs I would love to have a discussion with you on that...

Ok - your're on -- since you are the one that thinks that just mentioning Islamic doctrine makes one "militant Islam" -- then fine -- lets see how you do with that whole bowing to the Koran' date=' kissing the koran and also providing an "infallible model" for militant extremist Islam statements about "death to infidels" in your own infallible "exterminate heretics" statements of Lateran IV.

This I gotta see --

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Notice that the statement Gustave quotes does not actually affirm or endorse any militant Islamic teaching - all it does is point to some areas where Islam is not entirely wrong.

As it turns out - SDAs admit to a few areas where the RCC itself is not entirely wrong.

Gustave is just resorting to that old dark ages method of "conjure the booggyman and anyone who does not despise whom you despise is also an evil heretic".

This is all kind of odd for him - given the RCC's recent joining with Islam at the level of the Pope.

What we DID NOT see in Gustav's article was the SDA GC president bowing to the Koran or kissing it.

By contrast we have THIS -

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A055rcKoran.htm

Now given the RCC's own claim that its Lateran IV "death to heretics" laws are still infallible, and given the Islamic "death to infidels" dark-ages tradition that still lingers, and given all this bowing and kissing of the Koran by the Pope - what denomination is more "likely" in the future to revert to its old so called "infallible" methods. Methods that Islamic extremists are still borrowing.

And the even bigger question - why would Gustave want to bring this subject up??!!

[/quote']

We can use this post to start that thread for you ...

(I live to serve).

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Bob, I see your point about when the plagues start, which has always raised the question, WHY do the plagues come? What purpose do they serve if not to convict and convert some of the wicked? If they start AFTER probation closes, there will no martyrs because nothing would be gained by the blood. The purpose must be for the purification of the Saints. To realize their complete helplessness. With probation closed, they are "sealed" already (as the plagues begin), yet they continue in agony of spirit during this final purification process. Until they are delivered, 5th or 6th plague, somewhere right in there.

Agreed!

[olger]

Will labor unions provide the pattern for theological union?

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: John317

It doesn't matter who wrote it-- it is irrelevant today, because it no longer represents what the Seventh-day Adventist Church believes and teaches. In fact, it did not fully and truly represent the SDA church at the time it was printed in 1909.

Recall that during the dark ages - the RCC made arguments of the form "if you do not bad mouth and slander the groups I despise you are not really Christian".

Be careful here.

Notice that the statement Gustave quotes does not actually affirm or endorse any militant Islamic teaching - all it does is point to some areas where Islam is not entirely wrong.

As it turns out - SDAs admit to a few areas where the RCC itself is not entirely wrong.

Gustave is just resorting to that old dark ages method of "conjure the booggyman and anyone who does not despise whom you despise is also an evil heretic".

This is all kind of odd for him - given the RCC's recent joining with Islam at the level of the Pope.

What we DID NOT see in Gustav's article was the SDA GC president bowing to the Koran or kissing it.

By contrast we have THIS -

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A055rcKoran.htm

Now given the RCC's own claim that its Lateran IV "death to heretics" laws are still infallible, and given the Islamic "death to infidels" dark-ages tradition that still lingers, and given all this bowing and kissing of the Koran by the Pope - what denomination is more "likely" in the future to revert to its old so called "infallible" methods. Methods that Islamic extremists are still borrowing.

And the even bigger question - why would Gustave want to bring this subject up??!!

in Christ,

Bob

Simply so that I could quote paragraph 842 & 843 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

841

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

842

The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. .

843

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers ALL goodness and truth found in these religions AS "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.

You will note that what the SDA publication boasts is good about Islam....

...Is the theological bond between Islam and Adventism.

...And THAT is the repudiation of the Trinity.

[BobRyan]

Not wishing to hijack this thread with the RCC+Islam subject - a new thread is started for that other subject.

[Gibs]

This "Emerging Church" thing I think is in all denominational churches that I know of are at least into them to a degree but it is just a new thrust so watch for it in the SDA churches. I've been hearing some conferece church presidents are for it. I don't know how strong a hold it has but watch for it.

It's all working to unite all Christianity together, we are one and all that good sounding talk they can bring up.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[olger]

Ohio's president is really into it - and encouraging his pastors to get on board with it. Not too cool.

[ClubV12]

The bigger question might be, What do we personally do about it when it comes to OUR church and we see our friends and family accepting it? Praising the Lord for it! Sister White speaks of a false revival before the real one, with members of the church doing just that. Accepting it and praising God for it.

"Before the final visitation of God’s judgments upon the earth there will be among the people of the Lord such a revival of primitive godliness as has not been witnessed since apostolic times. . . . The enemy of souls desires to hinder this work, and before the time for such a movement shall come, he will endeavor to prevent it by introducing a counterfeit. In those churches which he can bring under his deceptive power, he will make it appear that God’s special blessing is poured out; there will be manifest what is thought to be great religious interest. . . .

There is an emotional excitement, a mingling of the true with the false, that is well adapted to mislead. Yet none need be deceived. In the light of God’s Word it is not difficult to determine the nature of these movements. Wherever men neglect the testimony of the Bible, turning away from those plain, soul-testing truths which require self-denial and renunciation of the world, there we may be sure that God’s blessing is not bestowed." Last Day Events pg 158

Is THIS emerging church idea "thee" one that will bring about this false revival? This "emotional excitement"? I don't know yet. NOTE: "In those churches which he can bring under his deceptive power..." From that I gather it will not be all the churches who fall under this spell.

[Gibs]

Olger,

I'm in Ohio too and from what I can find out it is well established and will never be resinded or annulled. This has been coming in for some time and this one should cause all SDA's to wake up if anything will, this one is the last straw it looks like to me to break the wagon down.

The only one I can think of that would go deeper back would be to renege on the Sabbath.

It certainly is wake up time for SDA's and to go to the root of the problem, the leadership.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Which leadership? The General Conference is clear on where they stand. Their power is somewhat limited when it comes to individual churches, as it should be. Sometimes you just have to wait for a problem to fully manifest itself before anyone can take action.

After all, that is the very foundation of the Great Controversy! Giving the accuser plenty of time to be fully revealed.

When there is error within the local church you attend (understanding this does not apply to those who have already left the church) you need to be that "rock" that pecular witness to the other members around you. Some of which may see the error and turn from it before it's to late. But what if your not there to be that witness, to be that one that stands firm? What if you hide your light at a time when it is most needed?

...their blood may be on your hands. We are either working to gather or working to scatter, there is no neutral position.

[Gibs]

Club12,

Go see if you can change the leaderships stand on anything. Try being the Rock you speak of. You need to learn about this and see if it is in your conference, it is here in the Ohio.

I think Ted Wilson made a feeble plea but it didn't seem to put any brakes on. I haven't been following the onslaught of it lately as it makes me sick.

You needed to be listening around 30 or more years ago. A lot went on in those days for many years and now there is no fight left in those in the denomination. The message to the Laodicea’s wasn't heeded at all.

The union of all the denominational churches is being formed and it won't be stopped because there is but few even see it happening and to where it is leading.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.