My Biggest Problem with Religion

[Igakusei]

Is this

You're all using the same book as a manual for your beliefs, and you're all relying on the Holy Spirit to guide you to the truth. How do you account for the fact that thousands of other denominations are doing the same thing yet coming to different conclusions? And yes, many of them think that they're the remnant elect too. This, even more than the problem of evil, is why I cannot take Christianity seriously.

[Woody]

Not sure what the problem with this scenario is. They are ALL God's elect. The particulars of knowledge are not important. How much knowledge one has does not make one God's elect. What makes you His elect is if you have given your HEART to Him.

[ClubV12]

I like the question: Why are there so many different interpretations of the scriptures and so many different religions? The devil is in the details!

Adventists would not be much different than any other group of believers except for ONE extraordinary thing, Ellen G. White. A special messenger of the Lord rasied up in the 1800's to help establish a people in the correct interpretation of scripture. Now hang with me a minute and lets review some history.

The "world" was just coming out of a long period of great darkness, the dark ages, the crusades, much in the way of correctly worshipping God had been lost during that 1,000 plus years of brutal activity and darkness. The children of Isael (the Jews if you would) had been in Egypt under slavery for some 400 years when they were called out. They had lived SO long under slavery they had almost forgotten everything about God. They were ignorant of many things, they didn't know HOW to worship or what to think. They had no "bible", no records to rely on.

In a sense, that was the condition of the world during the dark ages. Bibles were NOT readily available, the rule of LAW was the rule of the church. Obey, or die. The people were called out of that darkness, Luther was among the first to make the call, others followed. A reformation began, folks were getting educated again, bibles were available. It was a new beginning. The "reformation" stalled in the 1700's or so. People felt they had "learned enough". The Pilgrims seeking religious freedom passed laws that everyone MUST worship on Sunday!!! Some kind of "religious freedom" that was, but it was all they knew, "Obey or die". Rhode Island was the FIRST truly free "state" as it concerns religious freedom, the State would not compel folks to worship, period! The reformation was back under way!!!!

The reformation reached a climax in the mid 1800's, it was a world time of looking to Christ, of searching the bible, revival was "the thing" on everybodys mind.

THIS is when many people claimed to be prophets, it was very popular at the time. About 200 or so in America made such a claim, business was good for "prophetst", and revival meetings and churches and such. Many new Christian denominations were started, each with a slightly different take on scripture. The "Mormons" had a prophet, as did many others.

The "Millerites" became "Adventists", looking for the 2nd coming of Christ as their primary doctrine. Later, they accepted the Sabbath, thus becoming Seventh-day Adventists. A young woman, 17 years old or so as I recall, claimed to have visions and divine revelations. She did NOT call herself a prophet, because there were so many that did! Ellen White. The new Adventists were skeptical, they had seen plenty of "prophets" before, and they KNEW how to test them according to the bible. They were all rejected as false, including the Mormon prophet because they did not pass the biblical tests. Ellen White did, thus was founded the Seventh-day Adventist church. Her roll was primarilty to help direct and counsel upon the interpretation of scripture. ALL the Adventist doctrines are BIBLE BASED, not "prophet based". The Adventists then and now were/are known as a "people of the book", the bible, and the bible alone. And here we stand, on the bible, Gods TRUE CHURCH on earth. He has many sheep that are not of this fold, they too will find their way to heaven. But He has ONE special group to declare His commandments to the world, especially the fourth commandment, the Sabbath.

[Lysimachus]

There wouldn't be so many denominations if all would just accept the Spirit of Prophecy. That's what the Bible plainly states.... that "Prophets" were to prevent the Church from being tossed to and from from every wind of doctrine.

• Ephesians

  4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

  4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

  4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

  4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

  4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

  4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

It's very simple actually. Accept that God has sent us a last-day prophet that meets all the tests of a prophet, and now we will be safe. The Bible is the Christian foundation, and the Spirit of Prophecy is designed to bring unity and perfection concerning that Christian Foundation.

The reason why so many Protestants split off into different denominations is because they reject the Spirit of Prophecy.

[Woody]

I guess then that one would have to define the Spirit of Prophecy. And that is not an easy task.

[Igakusei]

Not sure what the problem with this scenario is. They are ALL God's elect. The particulars of knowledge are not important. How much knowledge one has does not make one God's elect. What makes you His elect is if you have given your HEART to Him.

Except where they're mutually exclusive. For example: Does what I do on the Sabbath matter?

[Woody]

Quote:

For example: Does what I do on the Sabbath matter?

For your spiritual growth and for the opportunity to Glorify Christ on this Earth? YES

Does it save you? No - not necessarily in all cases.

[Igakusei]

There wouldn't be so many denominations if all would just accept the Spirit of Prophecy. That's what the Bible plainly states.... that "Prophets" were to prevent the Church from being tossed to and from from every wind of doctrine.

• Ephesians

  4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

  4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

  4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

  4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

  4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

  4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

It's very simple actually. Accept that God has sent us a last-day prophet that meets all the tests of a prophet, and now we will be safe. The Bible is the Christian foundation, and the Spirit of Prophecy is designed to bring unity and perfection concerning that Christian Foundation.

The reason why so many Protestants split off into different denominations is because they reject the Spirit of Prophecy.

First, EGW is only one of many alleged prophets whose followers insist meet the tests of a prophet. Second, there are many honest people in other denominations who, in earnest search for truth guided by what they think is the Holy Spirit, decide that EGW does not meet all the tests of a prophet.

[Lysimachus]

I guess then that one would have to define the Spirit of Prophecy. And that is not an easy task.

I would expect God's end-time prophet to write more than any previous prophets.

I would expect God's end-time prophet to have more visions than any previous prophets.

I would expect God's end-time prophet to have very little education.

I would expect God's end-time prophet to focus intensely on helping the Church get ready for heaven.

...to mention just a few.

I believe the Ellen White meets the criteria. What prophet is said to have more than 2000 visions? What prophet is said to have written over 100,000 pages?

Not one prophet beats her in the history of mankind.

[Igakusei]

I would expect God's end-time prophet to not say things that turn out to be clearly wrong. Try to look past the cult of personality that has grown up around EGW in the last hundred years.

[Lysimachus]

I would expect God's end-time prophet to not say things that turn out to be clearly wrong. Try to look past the cult of personality that has grown up around EGW in the last hundred years.

I would expect God's end-time prophet to say things that appear to be clearly wrong, but are not wrong when one searches and digs for understanding and context.

Atheists always accuse the scriptures of contradicting themselves. I could link you several urls with blatant "so called" contradictions.

The nature of the "contradictions" of Ellen White with the Bible is no different than the nature of "contradictions" between the Bible itself.

Remember, in every generation throughout the Bible, the prophets were not popular among the people. They all found reasons to believe that the Prophet of the Lord that was sent to them was a false prophet or a troubler.

Would we not expect to see the same thing in the last days? I would only deem it sensible to consider so.

[ClubV12]

Adventism is certainly not a cult, nor are those who accept Ellen White as a prophet. Not that it would make any difference to me one way or the other. I used to be a Mormon. Applying the test of prophet from the bible to Joseph Smith doesn't even get you past first base. One of the first tests is: Do they place themselves above the bible? "New light" is an explanation of "old light", a building up of already established doctrine, not tearing or replacing.

You don't even have to be a Christian to apply the fundamental tests to a prophet, or a spiritualist or a mind reader or who ever. To ANY person making a spiritual claim: If they preach not according to the word there is no light in them. Joseph Smith places his book ABOVE the bible as the ultimate authority. Questions of doctrine are arrived at from HIS book first and foremost, the bible is secondary. That fails the first test right off the bat! The Mormons are not "people of the book", the book being the bible. They are people of "another book", a false book because it does not teach according to the word.

Ellen White on the other hand constantly pointed people BACK to the bible!! Her work was NEVER meant to replace the bible in any regard. THATS why Adventists have always been called a "people of the book". Ellen White is not required in the least to sustain doctrinal points of Adventists.

[Woody]

Quote:

Ellen White on the other hand constantly pointed people BACK to the bible!!

Unfortunately her goal was not reached. It just gave people something to read other than scripture.

[Gerr]

That has been the biggest question that has festered me over the years. But it has not kept me from believing in God and His word. I have some answers, but none will probably satisfy everyone. I think though that accuracy and unanimity of belief is probably less important than what one is doing with the light one has.

[ClubV12]

I see no problem with reading them BOTH Woody, it's not an unfortunate goal at all. For some, the bible is way complex, Steps to Christ is much easier to read and understand. The Great Controversy was written for the WORLD, not the church! You can figure out the details of the Great Controversy from the bible and the bible alone, but it will take some time, some skill, some spiritualy understanding. What if you don't have much of the above? Then try read one of her books, written in modern language you can understand. And while your reading it, it WILL point you back to the bible, the source by which all things are judged.

Any Christian, even a Catholic, can benefit from Steps to Christ, it's not an "Adventist" book, it's the greatest little book on Christianity ever written! The Desire of Ages, considered by many outside the church as the best book ever written on the life of Christ. Her work went well beyond Adventism.

[fccool]

Quote:

I would expect God's end-time prophet to write more than any previous prophets.

She did not write, she compiled from various sources. It's a bit different than sitting down and writing original material. Anyone could write 10,000 pages, given an extensive library to borrow from.

Quote:

I would expect God's end-time prophet to have more visions than any previous prophets.

Sure, she had a vision every time there was a disagreement. God miraculously gave her visions to prove that either her, or people who she believed were correct were indeed correct.

I don't know about you, but that makes me somewhat skeptical.

Quote:

I would expect God's end-time prophet to have very little education.

Lol, why? Almost every prophet of old were described as very educated people and scholars. But the claim of no education only ads miraculousness to the happening. In fact, she was self-educated, and had extensive library of hundreds of books and journals. How could that be if she had "little education"?

Mohammed's followers claimed that the man could not write

Quote:

I would expect God's end-time prophet to focus intensely on helping the Church get ready for heaven.

And that's my problem with religion in particular. All of these people are heaven-minded that they forget that their version of heaven and god is speculative. They spend more effort on obtaining heaven than they spend on improving the earth.

Quote:

I believe the Ellen White meets the criteria. What prophet is said to have more than 2000 visions? What prophet is said to have written over 100,000 pages?

Not one prophet beats her in the history of mankind.

I really did not know there was a comparative competition . Much of here writing is in fact pragmatic advice. It has very little to do with God's revelation in vision. She read some stuff somewhere. She liked what she saw. She made notes, and then compiled all of these notes into some advice books on family, health and spirituality. She recorded errors since much things that she read sounded good at that time.

[Dr. Shane]

Almost every prophet of old were described as very educated people and scholars.

I am not too sure about that. Most of the disciples were uneducated fishermen. Luke was a doctor and Matthew was a tax collector so they had some education. The most educated one, Judas, betrayed Him. Paul was very educated but he came afterward.

[Dr. Shane]

You're all using the same book as a manual for your beliefs, and you're all relying on the Holy Spirit to guide you to the truth. How do you account for the fact that thousands of other denominations are doing the same thing yet coming to different conclusions? And yes, many of them think that they're the remnant elect too. This, even more than the problem of evil, is why I cannot take Christianity seriously.

Wow! That doesn't disturb me at all. It is interesting to learn what different people's stumbling blocks are. I have heard this mentioned a few times in recovery meetings but normally by new comers.

[Dr. Shane]

there are many honest people in other denominations who, in earnest search for truth guided by what they think is the Holy Spirit, decide that EGW does not meet all the tests of a prophet.

It sounds like you need to go to those people and pose your question. You have asked here, and it has been answered. If that isn't good enough for you, find these other people that claim to have truth but do not believe in Ellen White. Maybe they will be able to satisfy your quest for knowledge.

[fccool]

In many ways religiously zelous remind me of the Mac crowd. If I tell a Mac fanboy that I fixed my computer problem, he will lead me to join the club by claiming that Macs have less problems. Generally, from my observation as IT specialist, Mac people like Mac because they are foolproof. They let you do just enough without changing something you don't understand, or getting into something that will cause you to understand IT technology better. They take over that knowledge and do a lot of that for you, and blocks many potential problems.

What irritates me, is that this model is being pushed forward as an ultimate fix for things. No, you don't need to know anything about computer security, you don't need to understand operating system and how computers work. Just open up, use that single button mouse, because options and settings are bad for you . But, it will "fix" your computer problems. It's like avoiding being robbed or getting sick by locking oneself in a house all day.

Religion is similar. It does not like complexity. It provides some simple explanations that are rather naive. It provides a promise of fix and claims that it's much better than the current fixes. The issue is that, it claims to fix things with a "Mac mentality". Having family problems? Accept Christ, pray to God and Read the Bible. Having a child dying from terrible disease? Accept Christ, read the Bible and pray! Just leave things to Mac to resolve.

Similar with E.G. White issue. People don't run to her sources, from which she draws a lot of her ideas and information. And the simplest explanation is not that she had an enormous library that she draws from. The simplest explanation is that God told her .

[fccool]

Quote:

I am not too sure about that. Most of the disciples were uneducated fishermen. Luke was a doctor and Matthew was a tax collector so they had some education. The most educated one, Judas, betrayed Him. Paul was very educated but he came afterward.

Disciple = A personal follower of Jesus during his life, esp. one of the twelve Apostles.

Prophet = A person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God: "the Old Testament prophet Jeremiah"

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

there are many honest people in other denominations who, in earnest search for truth guided by what they think is the Holy Spirit, decide that EGW does not meet all the tests of a prophet.

It sounds like you need to go to those people and pose your question. You have asked here, and it has been answered. If that isn't good enough for you, find these other people that claim to have truth but do not believe in Ellen White. Maybe they will be able to satisfy your quest for knowledge.

Shane, talking to "those people" is exactly why I developed this problem. Befriending and conversing with good, kind, honest people who want nothing more than to learn the truth but yet find "truths" quite different and often in substantial conflict with the "truths" that I was told to believe in was what set me on the road to where I am now.

If EGW really was a prophet and her visions really were from God, why would not every honest and inquisitive Christian, when led to her, recognize inspiration and begin to follow it? Same argument for the Bible. If it really was the word of God, it's wouldn't be such a convoluted mess that a thousand people can read it and come to a thousand different conclusions about the nature of God.

[12tribes]

Igakusei

Quote:

You're all using the same book as a manual for your beliefs, and you're all relying on the Holy Spirit to guide you to the truth. How do you account for the fact that thousands of other denominations are doing the same thing yet coming to different conclusions? And yes, many of them think that they're the remnant elect too. This, even more than the problem of evil, is why I cannot take Christianity seriously.

The first question to ask is what is truth? There are 3 texts that tell us what is truth

Psalms 119:142

(142) Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

John 14:6

(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 17:17

(17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

These verses tell us plainly what is truth and God's true church is based on truth

[phkrause]

And to follow up with this than, you'd have to say that if God's Law is truth! What is at the center of God's Law? The Ten Commandments? Yes, and what do they say? So now look at all the churches today, how many follow that Law? How many Commandments are important to them? Start with that. We know that God's people are in all churches and if they are really studying to find truth they will find it.

[Igakusei]

And to follow up with this than, you'd have to say that if God's Law is truth! What is at the center of God's Law? The Ten Commandments? Yes, and what do they say? So now look at all the churches today, how many follow that Law? How many Commandments are important to them? Start with that. We know that God's people are in all churches and if they are really studying to find truth they will find it.

Why stop at ten, then? By your logic, I should be hanging out with these guys.

Also note that 12tribes' little Bible study only really works with specific English translations.