The "time of the end" - 1798? or 1844?

[Lysimachus]

There seems to be two conflicting ideas within Adventism.

Some say the Time of the End began in 1798. Others in 1844. Even Tim Roosenberg is saying that Biblicaly speaking, the time of the end really begins in 1844, not 1798, and that we got the "time of the end beginning in 1798" from Uriah Smith, but that he was wrong.

I have looked at both sides of the argument, and both are equally convincing. I am undecided. D.S. Farris, even, in his "Prophetic Toolchest", puts the "time of the end" commencing at 1844.

I looked it up in Ellen White, and she is not 100% clear.

[ClubV12]

I've carefully considered this question myself and only came up with an opinion. 1844 works for me!

That is based on my interpretation of the daily as much as anything else. The termination of the 1290 step one and the confirming 1,260 as well.

Seems to me Roosenberg got to 1844 based on his graphing of the time periods of the "rise and fall" over time of Islam and Christian power bases. I wouldn't call that a "compelling" part of his overall presentation, but it has some merit.

[Lysimachus]

A Great religious awakening under the proclamation of Christ's soon coming is foretold in the prophecy of the first angel's message of Revelation 14. An angel is seen flying "in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people." "With a loud voice" he proclaims the message: "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come: and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." Verses 6, 7.

The fact that an angel is said to be the herald of this warning is significant. By the purity, the glory, and the power of the heavenly messenger, divine wisdom has been pleased to represent the exalted character of the work to be accomplished by the message and the power and glory that were to attend it. And the angel's flight "in the midst of heaven," the "loud voice" with which the warning is uttered, and its promulgation to all "that dwell on the earth,"--"to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"--give evidence of the rapidity and world-wide extent of the movement.

The message itself sheds light as to the time when this movement is to take place. It is declared to be a part of the "everlasting gospel;" and it announces the opening of the judgment. The message of salvation has been preached in all ages; but this message is a part of the gospel which could be proclaimed only in the last days, for only then would it be true that the hour of judgment had come. The prophecies present a succession of events leading down to the opening of the judgment. This is especially true of the book of Daniel. But that part of his prophecy which related to the last days, Daniel was bidden to close up and seal "to the time of the end." Not till we reach this time could a message concerning the judgment be proclaimed, based on the fulfillment of these prophecies. But at the time of the end, says the prophet, "many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Daniel 12:4.

The apostle Paul warned the church not to look for the coming of Christ in his day. "That day shall not come," he says, "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed." 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Not till after the great apostasy, and the long period of the reign of the "man of sin," can we look for the advent of our Lord. The "man of sin," which is also styled "the mystery of iniquity," "the son of perdition," and "that wicked," represents the papacy, which, as foretold in prophecy, was to maintain its supremacy for 1260 years. This period ended in 1798. The coming of Christ could not take place before that time. Paul covers with his caution the whole of the Christian dispensation down to the year 1798. It is this side of that time that the message of Christ's second coming is to be proclaimed.

No such message has ever been given in past ages. Paul, as we have seen, did not preach it; he pointed his brethren into the then far-distant future for the coming of the Lord. The Reformers did not proclaim it. Martin Luther placed the judgment about three hundred years in the future from his day. But since 1798 the book of Daniel has been unsealed, knowledge of the prophecies has increased, and many have proclaimed the solemn message of the judgment near.

Like the great Reformation of the sixteenth century, the advent movement appeared in different countries of Christendom at the same time. In both Europe and America men of faith and prayer were led to the study of the prophecies, and, tracing down the inspired record, they saw convincing evidence that the end of all things was at hand. In different lands there were isolated bodies of Christians who, solely by the study of the Scriptures, arrived at the belief that the Saviour's advent was near. (GC 355-357.1)

She says "since 1798 the book of Daniel has been unsealed". And Daniel says that the book will be sealed "until the time of the end". This judgment hour was proclaimed in 1843, before 1844.

We have a problem here! HELP!!!

[ClubV12]

And yet we know the book of Daniel has not been entirely "unsealed" as she says the events of Daniel are "almost fulfilled" and we should study it.

Perhaps the definition of "unsealed" could use some tweaking. :)

[Lysimachus]

Of course, the "unsealing" began in 1798, and is still being unsealed.

So when did the "time of the end" begin? 1798? 1844? or both?

My father seemed to imply to me that the first unsealing began after 1798, but the "time of the end" was realized more fully yet at after 1844.

[ClubV12]

If Revelation unlocked Daniel, could it be said the time of the end began on the isle of Patomos?

I think your Dad was onto something.... 1798, more in 1844 yet more again right now in this age! It just keeps getting better (before it gets much much worse).

[John317]

She says "since 1798 the book of Daniel has been unsealed". And Daniel says that the book will be sealed "until the time of the end". This judgment hour was proclaimed in 1843, before 1844.

We have a problem here! HELP!!!

I agree, Lysimachus. I myself believe it was in 1798 because that is when God opened the book of Daniel to His people for them to understand. If the time of the end did not begin until 1844, that means the book of Daniel didn't begin to be opened up to their understanding until 1844. But that makes no sense, since they had to know the true meaning of the prophecies concerning the Judgment Hour in order to proclaim the truth.

Actually, in some ways 1843 was the more imporant date because throughout most of Miller's preaching, the main date was 1843.

Also, looking at it historically, we see many people beginning to study and understand the prophecies of Daniel about the late 1700s.

[John317]

My father seemed to imply to me that the first unsealing began after 1798, but the "time of the end" was realized more fully yet at after 1844.

I agree with your dad. It goes along with the whole idea of the Bible that truth-- light-- is progressive. The prophecies continue to be unsealed more and more even today and doubless will continue to be understood better right up until the end of human probation.

[John317]

[12tribes]

1798 is when the time of the end began because

Daniel 12:4, 9

(4) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

(9) And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Look at verses 6, 7

Daniel 12:6-7

(6) And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

(7) And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

These verses are telling us when the time of the end began. Verse 7 is connected to Revelation 10:5, 6

Revelation 10:5-6

(5) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

(6) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Note the similarities between the verses, so this is saying that from 1798 a message would go forward saying that time would be no longer and was there such a message? that now ties in with Daniel 8

[ClubV12]

12Tribes does make a reasonable case for 1844.

We do know Daniel is chronological and literal when properly understood. In that regard 12Tribes literal interpretation of Daniel in conjunction with Revelation can't be easily dismissed. A literal "time of the end" in 1843-44.

BUT, for me that presents a bit of problem with the second half of Dan 11:7.

The scattering or breaking of the Saints power. I've recently come to see that as righteousness by faith! As referring to the end of the time of trouble when the Saints, having survived a time of trouble such as never was, "finally" come to realize there complete helplessness on "self". I place this time of "breaking" (scattering) as just before the Saints are delivered, at midnight. At that time any and every aspect of "works" has been annihilated and the only hope remaining is righteousness by faith.

[Gibs]

None need to be in the dark of the vision given to Daniel in Chapter 8:

There is verses that clear it up solidly.

Da 8:1 ¶ In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

The "after" there in verse 1 means the "end part" to be in context with the following given to Dan. by the angel.

Da 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

"Indignation" used there is a fearful one, the one used here is of God's last furious wrath with sin. Read the meaning,

za`am zah'-am

from 2194; strictly froth at the mouth, i.e. (figuratively) fury (especially of God's displeasure with sin):--angry, indignation, rage.

The termination properly placed brings us down to our year 1844 and from that time to the consummation is the time of the end.

To agree or disagree is OK.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Gibs, you can find confirmation regarding your issues here: http://web.me.com/spiritoftruth/STM/Welcome.html

[12tribes]

12Tribes does make a reasonable case for 1844.

We do know Daniel is chronological and literal when properly understood. In that regard 12Tribes literal interpretation of Daniel in conjunction with Revelation can't be easily dismissed. A literal "time of the end" in 1843-44.

BUT, for me that presents a bit of problem with the second half of Dan 11:7.

The scattering or breaking of the Saints power. I've recently come to see that as righteousness by faith! As referring to the end of the time of trouble when the Saints, having survived a time of trouble such as never was, "finally" come to realize there complete helplessness on "self". I place this time of "breaking" (scattering) as just before the Saints are delivered, at midnight. At that time any and every aspect of "works" has been annihilated and the only hope remaining is righteousness by faith.

I actually thought I was making a case for 1798 that from 1798 a message would go forward that time would be no longer. I believe the time of the end began in 1798.

[John317]

http://web.me.com/spiritoftruth/STM/Welcome.html

Gibs, be warned that the people on the above link believe and teach that Paul was inspired by the devil and that Ellen White was a false prophet. They also teach that it was Satan who tricked the disciples into believing the Holy Spirit fell on them on the Day of Pentecost. They don't accept Mark, the Gospel of Luke, Acts, the Epistles of Paul, Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and Jude.

[Gibs]

Dr. Rich,

No I do not find any confirmation that I saw laid out there. The view I take of Daniel 8: I do the math on the Jubilee Calendar. From the context of Dan 8 and 9 it is determined that this is a year for a day prophecy and the Jubilee calendar is the one for that. It is one of God's great time clocks running from all eternity past into all eternity future.

Prophecy of the Bible is a subject I love but do not debate or discuss much as there is about as many views as there is people who study it.

I lay out my view on that on a take it or leave it basis. Yes I am solid on what I expound and once in a geat while have found a better explanation of some point.

We sure don't have long for it to play out for all to see if they have the right interpretation, if I am right on mine, as I see the finish line is very very close.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Quote:

1798? or 1844?

It is neither – for neither can be borne out by Writ.

I am reminded of the saying: “...for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.” EGW, in one aspect, proved it right with her necessity of travel by shank’s mare, horse and buggy, wind and waves, or by some other equally primitive means (steam travel did not begin to come into its own until the late 19th century – and then, it was extremely limited). And no,

Daniel 12 does not speak to the unrolling of ancient scrolls or flipping through pages of Bible Commentaries.

Even by mid-19th century, ‘knowledge’ had barely increased. The fact that the validation of germ theory was still yet on the horizon of medical science suggests that the ‘Time of the End’ was also yet on the horizon, ...at the least. 80% of total world knowledge has been brought to this present stage within only the last ten years-plus with more than 90% of all scientists who have ever lived, being alive today.

Why is this, that, or the other one so driven to ‘prove’ that the ‘Time of the End’ began so far back in history? What motivates the expositor of Writ?

The wishful heart finds its appointment, always; but seldom is it more than illusion.

“I am the architect of my own destruction. So this is it, what is written on the timeline cannot be changed. [...] people think time is like a river that flows swift and sure in one direction. But I have seen the face of time, and I can tell you: they are wrong. Time is an ocean in a storm.” –The Prince of Persia

[Gibs]

jasd,

This is not declared time of the end but make it out for yourself. It's the closest one I know of but not seen but by few.

Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

What you need to collect from those verses is that after the deadly wound is healed the beast is given but 42 mos. to continue to make war, of course with the saints.

Well if that period of time had ended back yonder as some think why is the beast still continuing to make war? It's simple, the prophecy is just very near future.

I will leave you to discern it for yourself as all need to be students of the Word and those verses present no problem.

To each his own.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

12Tribes,,, I had to chuckle, the very verses you cite to make your case for 1798 point to 1844, the end of the time, times and half a time. How you can get 1798 out of those verses is beyond me.

Which is one reason as to why the date remains illusive. Same verse, two different conclusions!

Gib's, 42 months AFTER the wound is healed? No way, the entire 2,300 year prophecy terminated in 1844. The 42 month period (1,260 years) is in the past. There is no future or dual application of this expired time frame. By the way, the DAY for a YEAR principle stands, it is NOT 1,260 DAYS, then, now or in the future.

The wound, is not yet healed, in any regard.

Revelation 13:5

Begin date: 538, end date: 1798, 1,260 years, or 42 months.

[12tribes]

12Tribes,,, I had to chuckle, the very verses you cite to make your case for 1798 point to 1844, the end of the time, times and half a time. How you can get 1798 out of those verses is beyond me.

Which is one reason as to why the date remains illusive. Same verse, two different conclusions!

Gib's, 42 months AFTER the wound is healed? No way, the entire 2,300 year prophecy terminated in 1844. The 42 month period (1,260 years) is in the past. There is no future or dual application of this expired time frame. By the way, the DAY for a YEAR principle stands, it is NOT 1,260 DAYS, then, now or in the future.

The wound, is not yet healed, in any regard.

Revelation 13:5

Begin date: 538, end date: 1798, 1,260 years, or 42 months.

[Gibs]

The deadly wound was inflicted in 1798 and the martyrdom of God's people ended, now we are coming to the time the deadly wound is just being healed and martyrdom will again be with the true ones of God.

Some hold to the theory that prophecy is all history, well that is your choice but this one knows better.

The 42 mos. of Rev 13: are literal time and has not happened yet but must and will shortly come to pass. I am a follower of no man on prophecy, the Bible only is my guide.

The verses there make it clear those 42 mos. don't happen until that deadly wound is healed. You need to notice also the the king power, crowns are now on the horns in Rev. 13 but in chap. 12 before the wound they were on the heads. Satan changed it from the old world order in 1798 to starting the NWO. The change of the king power must be dealt with and very few have and I'm telling you it is very few.

You need to study it a little and understanding should come clearly. People you need to understand it for yourself and not stand on someone else's explanation when you don't really see it.

Prophecy is like a thought problem, if part of the equation is left out the answer will not be right. A lot of prophecy does require thought problem math and not many are good at that.

I presented a view and we will soon see what is the right answer, we travel on and the journey isn't far now but will get very rocky now very soon.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I've studied this concept of a future application of the 1,260 year, NOT DAY, prophecy in depth Gibs.

This idea is not new, there are many people who follow, most of them, like yourself, have left the Adventist church. A few remain within the church but they have learned to keep quiet on the subject. Marion Barry was perhaps the most well known of this group of "1335 Futurists", she denounced her Adventist membership. You are simply following a lot of people who came before you.

This concept is in direct opposition to William Millers findings which were confirmed by Ellen White and upheld by the Seventh-day Adventist church as a primary foundational belief. Confirmed by myself after I studied these issues in depth.

The deadly wound was indeed inflicted in 1798, thus ending the 1,260 year part of the 2,300 year prophecy. For awhile I thought this path of error was very close to the path of truth. But once I began to understand it, I see now the two paths are very far apart. The path your on Gib's, is substantial error.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

You are so far from seeing what I see that I know you will never see it from the mentality you hold.

You fail to see it wasn't time for the final unrolling of the scroll yet in her, EGW's, day but she saw further than the rest and certain prophecies were yet sealed to them and the same today to those who refuse to see now that the scroll is unrolled.

You say I have no substantiation but I've given you more than you can give me. What you give me is what is said before the scroll was unrolled. The rest is for he who will look and see, not to he who won't.

You hear the expression a lot "I can't see", and there they said it all.

The first 10 verses of Rev 13: introduces you to Satan's NWO beast, which is his "image" beast. It too has 7 heads and 10 horns but is not the great red dragon. This "image" beast appears as leopard like.

You will notice as you read those verses it is Satan the Dragon that gives this "image" beast "his" power, seat and great authority.

Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Now I'll give you the clue that is in the prophecy that sets it straight, it is this verse, (The "he" of course is Satan, look above "his" power, seat and authority).

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

So now if you understand that then it is plain the beast from verse 11 on is Satan puppeting his "image" beast. Now there is no let up of the context from 11 - 18 of speaking of him, Satan through to the end of the chapter.

Reject it if you want but I know a lot more about this and who and what the 10 horns are but if you can't follow that I would be wasting my time. The unravaling of it is plainly laid out in the Word but few will ever know of it and there is a reason for that.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

ClubV12,

You are so far from seeing what I see that I know you will never see it from the mentality you hold.

You fail to see it wasn't time for the final unrolling of the scroll yet in her, EGW's, day but she saw further than the rest and certain prophecies were yet sealed to them and the same today to those who refuse to see now that the scroll is unrolled.

You say I have no substantiation but I've given you more than you can give me. What you give me is what is said before the scroll was unrolled. The rest is for he who will look and see, not to he who won't.

You hear the expression a lot "I can't see", and there they said it all.

The first 10 verses of Rev 13: introduces you to Satan's NWO beast, which is his "image" beast. It too has 7 heads and 10 horns but is not the great red dragon. This "image" beast appears as leopard like.

You will notice as you read those verses it is Satan the Dragon that gives this "image" beast "his" power, seat and great authority.

Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Now I'll give you the clue that is in the prophecy that sets it straight, it is this verse, (The "he" of course is Satan, look above "his" power, seat and authority).

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

So now if you understand that then it is plain the beast from verse 11 on is Satan puppeting his "image" beast. Now there is no let up of the context from 11 - 18 of speaking of him, Satan through to the end of the chapter.

Reject it if you want but I know a lot more about this and who and what the 10 horns are but if you can't follow that I would be wasting my time. The unravaling of it is plainly laid out in the Word but few will ever know of it and there is a reason for that.

Keep going Gibs! Yes, it is clear to me too as with many others I know. The first beast of Rev. 13 is the NWO and the second beast is Satan himslef. Please give your educated take on the horns, crowns, heads and what it means for the three images, bear, lion and leopard.

My take on the wounded head is that this can only be the Jews who lost their right of the way they worship because of a war. Catholics never had this happen as their way of worship has continued from the very start.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[ClubV12]

Interesting the Dr. Rich is in total agreement with Gib's on this issue,,, that speaks volumes.

Anway,,, those who hold to this doctrine are in direct opposition to what the Seventh-day Adventist church holds as a foundational point. Since Dr. Rich actively fights against the doctrine of the church and since Gibs has long ago removed all connections with the church, this should come as no surprise.