The "time of the end" - 1798? or 1844?

[John317]

The following quote makes it clear that Ellen White viewed "the time of the end" as beginning in 1798:

Quote:

But that part of his prophecy which related to the last days, Daniel was bidden to close up and seal "to the time of the end." ...But since 1798 the book of Daniel has been unsealed, knowledge of the prophecies has increased, and many have proclaimed the solemn message of the judgment near. {GC 356}

[John317]

Agreed!

[John317]

http://web.me.com/spiritoftruth/STM/Welcome.html

This is nonsense and garbage. It teaches, among other things, that Satan tricked the disciples into believing the Holy Spirit fell on the Day of Pentecost when in reality it was Satan who inspired them.

This is the doctrines of devils if there ever was such a thing. It's time for the truth to be told straightforwardly.

[ClubV12]

John317 that GC 358 quote appears to be very conclusive as 1798. If so, why is there a debate on 1798 vs 1844?

Not that I see this as anything more than a point of interesting trivia. I allow for both dates mostly to avoid an argument over such a trivial point.

Seems to me, from the bible and the bible alone, the issue could continue with no end in sight! :)

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

http://web.me.com/spiritoftruth/STM/Welcome.html

This is nonsense and garbage. It teaches, among other things, that Satan tricked the disciples into believing the Holy Spirit fell on the Day of Pentecost when in reality it was Satan who inspired them.

This is the doctrines of devils if there ever was such a thing. It's time for the truth to be told straightforwardly.

Dear John, yes my friend, we do know your OWN opinion but your opinion is not fact. Calling me and my opinions 'doctrines of devils' is also your opinion. Please present some facts to back up your opinions. Thanks.

Oh, by the way, anyone here can make up their own mind as I think most of us are old enough to handle this issue. If you, or anyone for that matter, has ANYTHING that can be backed up with the words of Jesus as factual evidence to support something different than what is presented on that site, then for goodness sake please do so!

Don't we all just want to know the REAL truth? (Just the facts mame, just the facts)

[Dr. Rich]

Interesting the Dr. Rich is in total agreement with Gib's on this issue,,, that speaks volumes.

Anway,,, those who hold to this doctrine are in direct opposition to what the Seventh-day Adventist church holds as a foundational point. Since Dr. Rich actively fights against the doctrine of the church and since Gibs has long ago removed all connections with the church, this should come as no surprise.

Club, please sir, don't be silly and lie about what I do or don't do. Sure, it may be your opinion of what I believe or not, but YOU SIR, do not know me! Here is the thing, I am an old man who has been an Adventist all of my life. I have been to Adventist Gradeschool, Academy and several of the Adventists Colleges and Universities. Have you? I know the bible inside out and have over 20 years of downright serious research regarding the bible. So, just because I do not see eye to eye with the majority, who by the way have NO IDEA what the bible really says, does not mean that I am not an Adventist.

And this goes for everyone here. Lets not allow our own opinions to take jabs at people. Correction is fine, as long at is from, or agrees with the words of Jesus give to us by His eye witnesses as found in John 14:26 and 17:17-20. After all, don't we all really want to know and practice the real truth--even IF this truth does not now agree with the present belief? Right? This is the roots of Adventism--the search for truth regardless of what others believe even IF they were in the majority.

[ClubV12]

Dr. Rich, Paul was an inspired author of the bible. To say different is to directly oppose the scriptures, thats a fact, not an opinion. There are only two camps, those of God and those of the devil. Those that oppose God, His inspired word, have pitched their tent with the "doctrines of devils". That is the real truth.

[Lysimachus]

jasd,

This is not declared time of the end but make it out for yourself. It's the closest one I know of but not seen but by few.

Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

What you need to collect from those verses is that after the deadly wound is healed the beast is given but 42 mos. to continue to make war, of course with the saints.

Well if that period of time had ended back yonder as some think why is the beast still continuing to make war? It's simple, the prophecy is just very near future.

Major problem with this interpretation. First off, you are reading it in chronological order, not realizing that John is simply backing up and filling in more details in verse 5--not describing a "next" chronological event.

The ultimate proof that John cannot be writing this in chronological order (that the 42 months comes after the deadly wound) is because you also have the Two-Horned, Lamb-Like, Beast coming up out of the sea AFTER the 42 months in verse 11! Then verse 12 seals it in stone that while the Lamb-Like Beast is alive, the deadly wound on the Sea Beast "was" healed--before.

There is a "general" chronological order, but not a "strict". Remember, you would have to conclude 4 lakes of fires and 3 events when the New Jerusalem comes down if you employ the rule you just did on Revelation 13.

[Lysimachus]

The verses there make it clear those 42 mos. don't happen until that deadly wound is healed. You need to notice also the the king power, crowns are now on the horns in Rev. 13 but in chap. 12 before the wound they were on the heads. Satan changed it from the old world order in 1798 to starting the NWO. The change of the king power must be dealt with and very few have and I'm telling you it is very few.

You are referring to Revelation 12 verse 3 where it mentions the crowns upon the heads. But notice that in verse 4 right after the woman is ready to give birth to the child, Jesus Christ. Clearly this phase is referring to Pagan Rome.

The crowns on the horns in chapter 13 is actually clear evidence that it is referring to the time of the Middle Ages, when kingdoms were ruled by a monarchy.

It is not until we reach chapter 17 where the horns have no crowns--a pictorial representation of the time when nations were not ruled by monarchs, rather governments and statesmen.

[Gibs]

Lysimachus,

The crowns were on the heads in chap 12 of Rev and that was in the dark ages, The crowns changed from the heads to the horns after the deadly wound was inflicted, Satan started himself a new world order, the old world order ended in 1798 and I don't imagine you can see that now but there will be a time you do I do believe.

No the crowns stay on the horns to the consumation and Satan gives to each a kingdom, it only lasts one hr. then it is not long til it's over..

These 10 are ruling now and puppeting the rulers of the world. That's why you are seeing everything going haywire now, Satan the destroyer is running things through those 10 of his "image" beast.

We soon are going to see some unbelieveable happenings

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus,

The crowns were on the heads in chap 12 of Rev and that was in the dark ages, The crowns changed from the heads to the horns after the deadly wound was inflicted, Satan started himself a new world order, the old world order ended in 1798 and I don't imagine you can see that now but there will be a time you do I do believe.

[Lysimachus]

To Gibs, and others,

I encourage you to purchase the new book just released by Professor Edwin de Kock entitled: "Seven Heads and Ten Horns - in Daniel and Revelation". It is truly worth the read, and a breakthrough!

Find his email on here, and ask him how much it costs:

http://www.thesourcehh.org/Biography/bio-edwindekock.htm

Send him a check or a money-order, and he'll email the PDF to you.

I purchased all his material, including his new book "The Truth About 666 and the Story of the Great Apostasy" -- http://biblelight.net/Truth-666.htm -- an almost 900 pages masterpiece that goes WAY beyond the research of Dr. Froom. De Kock has access to primary sources Dr. Froom and many earlier pioneers would have dreamed of having! You will be able to buy this book in hard-format very soon right here: http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/ -- but the hard-copy will be much more expensive, probably around $40. It will also be hard-cover.

It is now just being printed as we speak, but I purchased the digital version. I purchased ALL his materials actually. They are so impressive.

So get your hands on this research folks!

[HEBREW1939]

What appears to be overlooked here is the fact that if "the time of the end" began in 1844 or 1798, it calls into question the issue of whether or not the doctrines and dogmas promulgated and "set in stone" today could be valid and accurate since the Christianity most adhere to was invented by the Roman Emperors beginning in 325AD.

This means all of the doctrines adhered to by most Christians must be re-evaluated because the "book" or Word of God was "sealed until the time of the end". Therefore, the trinity, the immortality of the soul, hellfire and torment, the paid clergy/laity distinction, tithing, papal authority, etc. must all be re-evaluated, don't you think?

[JoeMo]

The entire concept of denominations (i.e., man-made mental constructs that "explain" biblical truth) needs to be re-evaluated.  Salvation is about our relationship with Yahweh and His Son; not our relationship with a man-made set of doctrines.

[LifeHiscost]

 1But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. 2Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.

      3Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.

      6Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; 7in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, 8sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us....Titus 2

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[HEBREW1939]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

The entire concept of denominations (i.e., man-made mental constructs that "explain" biblical truth) needs to be re-evaluated.  Salvation is about our relationship with Yahweh and His Son; not our relationship with a man-made set of doctrines.

JoeMo: I could not agree with you more. Somewhere it is written: "We must work out our salvation with fear and trembling." That sounds very personal to me. 

1 hour ago, LifeHiscost said:

 1But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. 2Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.

      3Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.

      6Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; 7in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, 8sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us....Titus 2

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

Is this your response to the question? How can "christianity" be true while the "book" was "sealed until the time of the end".

How can christianity, invented under the influence of Roman Emperors, establish accurate doctrine when the "book" was

"sealed"? 

 

Should we not now really re-evaluate the doctrines and dogmas handed down to us from the 4th century, long before the

"time of the end"?

 

Please respond to the question. 

 

Shalom my friend.

[8thdaypriest]

On 11/23/2011 at 9:14 AM, Gibs said:

The deadly wound was inflicted in 1798 and the martyrdom of God's people ended, now we are coming to the time the deadly wound is just being healed and martyrdom will again be with the true ones of God.

 

Some hold to the theory that prophecy is all history, well that is your choice but this one knows better.

 

The 42 mos. of Rev 13: are literal time and has not happened yet but must and will shortly come to pass. I am a follower of no man on prophecy, the Bible only is my guide.

 

The verses there make it clear those 42 mos. don't happen until that deadly wound is healed. You need to notice also the the king power, crowns are now on the horns in Rev. 13 but in chap. 12 before the wound they were on the heads. Satan changed it from the old world order in 1798 to starting the NWO. The change of the king power must be dealt with and very few have and I'm telling you it is very few.

 

You need to study it a little and understanding should come clearly. People you need to understand it for yourself and not stand on someone else's explanation when you don't really see it.

 

Prophecy is like a thought problem, if part of the equation is left out the answer will not be right. A lot of prophecy does require thought problem math and not many are good at that.

 

I presented a view and we will soon see what is the right answer, we travel on and the journey isn't far now but will get very rocky now very soon.

 

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I agree with you here Gibs. 

I believe THE "time of the end" will be the LAST "time, times, and a part" = 1260 days = 42 months. 

If you just take the passage AS IT READS, the persecution for 42 months, comes AFTER the deadly wound is healed - NOT BEFORE.  (Revelation 13:3-5)

[Samie]

On 10/11/2016 at 9:53 AM, jackson said:

The last half or so of the book of Daniel was to be opened at the time of the end. (see Dan 12:4) If anyone thinks the time of the end has not yet arrived , then why do they presume to open a closed book?

The Papacy as a persecuting power and a civil power ended in 1798- 1260 years after it had become a world civil power in 538 AD.

Dan 12:7  says that the time of the end would be after the culmination of the 1260 prophetic days/years. The Pope was taken captive  in 1798 and the book of Daniel was then opened.

Jesus Himself specifically pointed to the setting up of the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel the prophet as the event that triggers the occurrence of the great tribulation (or time of trouble in Dan 12:1, 2) which God will shorten for the sake of the elect, and emphatically added that the expiry of the great tribulation celestial phenomena will transpire and will be capped by the second coming. see Matt 24:14-31.

In Daniel, it is in the occurrence of the time of trouble (or great tribulation in Matt 24:21) that those written in the book (of life?) will be delivered and where the resurrection of the dead (both righteous and wicked) occurs (Dan 12:1, 2). To me, this resurrection is that which will occur when Jesus will come.

If not, which resurrection is this, since Scriptures specify there will be A RESURRECTION of both the just and the unjust (Acts 24:15)?

But if it is, then the setting up of the abomination of desolation is yet to occur, along with the events directly related with its occurrence!

[Samie]

Hi jackson,

I simply pointed to what our Savior Himself said relative to the issue being discussed.

He said that before He returns (2nd Coming), the great tribulation (or time of trouble) will occur, triggered by the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Matt 24:14-31). As per Daniel, during the great tribulation or time of trouble, those written in the book (of life?) will be delivered, an obvious reference to the 2nd Coming since the resurrection of the dead (both just and unjust) will likewise take place (Dan 12:1, 2).

I asked whether the resurrection in Dan 12:1, 2 is the one at the Second Coming, because IF IT IS, then the abomination of desolation is yet to occur along with the other events directly associated with it.  BUT IF NOT, then which resurrection is that?

[Dave Watchman]

On 11/7/2016 at 2:00 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

I agree with you here Gibs. 

I believe THE "time of the end" will be the LAST "time, times, and a part" = 1260 days = 42 months. 

If you just take the passage AS IT READS, the persecution for 42 months, comes AFTER the deadly wound is healed - NOT BEFORE.  (Revelation 13:3-5)

I also agree with what Gibs says here about the "time of the end". He puts it in an easy to understand common sense way. I like his style.

But I agree with the SDA understanding of 1798 and 1844, it's just that I don't think these dates are the designated "time of the end" yet. What I think is the abomination of desolation is also the transgression of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel and there's no way that this could have been understood by people in 1798 or 1844. Impossible.

I also think that we're here now and that "for then there will be great tribulation" could begin at any time. I had hoped that when the time came to "flee", there might only be a third of the 1260 days remaining so that we would only have to be in the wilderness for 420 days before the Lord's return. If great tribulation begins next Monday I count 777 days.  I was also looking at an old post from Gibs where he was talking about the trumpets:

Quote

 

"The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {1888 762.1}

"I don't fault her for seeing increasing light and it is clear in 1888 she saw the trumpets were yet to transpire and then the vials of wrath.

 

https://clubadventist.com/forums/topic/53100-seven-trumpets/?do=findComment&comment=615674 

 

I think these first four trumpets are what will come as Paul's "sudden destruction" which will then provide the catalyst for the Sunday law and all of the other end time events. Like on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.

I'm worried. Even for next week. But if something like this was coming wouldn't ALL of God's people have a heads up? Just before a third of the earth is burnt up the Script says something about the prayers of ALL the saints. Does something happen in the world that causes a simultaneous prayer outbreak of ALL the saints around the planet just prior to trumpet # 1 falling?

"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them.

The first angel blew his trumpet, and there followed hail and fire, mixed with blood, and these were thrown upon the earth. And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

I hope that great tribulation does NOT begin next Monday. I would like to have another summer.

[LifeHiscost]

On 10/25/2016 at 2:46 PM, HEBREW1939 said:

JoeMo: I could not agree with you more. Somewhere it is written: "We must work out our salvation with fear and trembling." That sounds very personal to me. 

Is this your response to the question? How can "christianity" be true while the "book" was "sealed until the time of the end".

How can christianity, invented under the influence of Roman Emperors, establish accurate doctrine when the "book" was

"sealed"? 

 

Should we not now really re-evaluate the doctrines and dogmas handed down to us from the 4th century, long before the

"time of the end"?

 

Please respond to the question. 

 

Shalom my friend.

I would suppose the answer to that would be in these Words.

…4Make me know Your ways, O LORD; Teach me Your paths. 5Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; For You I wait all the day. 6Remember, O LORD, Your compassion and Your lovingkindnesses, For they have been from of old.…Psalms 25

…12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. 14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you.…John 16

God is Love!~Jesus saves!