"The Emerging Church"

[Gibs]

Know Your Enemy (Part 76 - The Emerging Church - Road To The One World Religion)

This video is rather short and there is 77 in the series,"Know Your Enemy" but I bring this one to the front as this is coming into ALL the churches now. Can it be stopped? No for me I don't see that will happen. Here is the url, watch it to learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otGTEuo4PG0&feature=related

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

So much "doom and gloom", it reminds me of others who consistently post that the church has fallen, or will fall, who claim the church is in apostasy but offer no solutions, no action is recommended, no hope is given.

When we see the error, what action should be taken? What recommendations should be made? WHAT are the people of God supposed to do about it?

"There is a time of trouble coming to the people of God, but we are not to keep that constantly before the people and rein them up to have a time of trouble beforehand. There is to be a shaking among God’s people, but this is not the present truth to carry to the churches."

Last Day Events pg 17

[LynnDel]

Very interesting. The concept of "emerging church" sounds so innocuous, but it is so full of compromise. Truth does not have to be at odds with love, but so many times the news of salvation is treated as if it is a message of hate - because that seems to be the reaction of many when they learn their lifestyles or beliefs are at odds with God's truth. Or is it our way of presenting truth that is the problem?

LD

[Gibs]

LD,

Bringing out the truth in love is sometimes very hard to do and not vary from the truth that it may still be the truth. Actually though we know that truth is love and our God and Saviour is just that, Truth and the way and He is Love and His commandments express Him.

Here is a quote from EGW and it could have been from anyone and I fully agree with it.

"Caution is to be prayerfully exercised by everyone who believes the truth. There are trying scenes before us, and we need to exercise great caution, keeping the door of our lips while the wicked are before us. We shall have to meet in our experience with men having fanatical zeal which will provoke those who hate the truth and it will be necessary to preserve a calm attitude and not state all we do know, for impressions will be made upon human minds that will, under the influence of Satan, grow to large proportions.

There is need of watching unto prayer. The evils we shall meet have long been gathering and like a storm, will come upon many when they least expect it. While they cannot be charged with originating the evil, they precipitated it. Charges will be made which believers cannot refute, because they have not shown wisdom in the use of either the pen or the voice". {TDG 250.2}

How true it is we that we must be careful not to state all we do know. The hour is so late and much must be learned now by the people in a few months that it took years for us to come to see and understand.

All true wisdom and understanding comes by His Spirit moving us that must be dwelling in us or we will miss what is a must for us.

I can only defend what I know to be the truth and none bearing the truth ever need be riled as it cannot be moved and stands forever. Calm response and no sharp remaks back is the only way.

I love these verses,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Isa 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Kevin H]

So much "doom and gloom", it reminds me of others who consistently post that the church has fallen, or will fall, who claim the church is in apostasy but offer no solutions, no action is recommended, no hope is given.

While this is off the topic of "The Emerging Church" which I don't have a background to speak about. I just wanted to give a smile and wink to ClubV12's post by reminding him that those who believe that the gospel is the good news that the church is going to hell in a handbasket always gives the solutions: To join their subgroups:

Some say throw out every idea in the (granted a sad book with big problems but which does have about half the truth) book Questions on Doctrine, believe that Jesus had the fallen nature, that any music that they don't like is hated even more so by God, that we are to live as if it is the 1800s,especially theologically, that you don't look to languages and culture and history in interpeting the Bible and Mrs. White but just listen to their key texts and allow them to be the final interpeter as to what those words mean, and to join them in looking for more evidence of the good news that the church is going to hell in a handbasket:

The others say to throw out the investigative judgent, see Mrs. White as only a pastoral figure and we need to become typical Evangelical Christians and not have room for salvation anyone who does not fit in that typical Evangelical Christian mindset, that we need to theologically live in the 1500s. and to join them in looking for more evidence of the good news that the Seventh-day Adventists are a cult.

[Gibs]

Really Kevin H and ClubV12 truth is not gloom and doom. It is a shinning precious gem. Oh yes that truth so many times is very cutting but we must admit that we must have it as that Truth we are told will set us free.

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

We are not all in agreement about what is truth of something but one thing I think we agree on is that truth invites investigation and only shines the brighter for it.

One of the main things I see is we must not be caught up in being deceived because we refuse to investigate to find the truth of things.

Zep 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.

Babylon the Great is more than most realize and has gotten more of a hold on the denominational churches of the world than even most of the awakened know.

That strait gate and narrow way is not found but by a very few anymore there is no doubt and Jesus is the one who stated that one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

The problem is, Gibs, those who present truth should ALSO present hope! A solution, something one needs to do, what practical steps one needs to take to avoid this "doom".

Carrying around a sign proclaiming the end of all things is also truth. At some point you need to feed the sheep.

And your solution is to this impending crisis within the Seventh-day Adventist chuch is....?

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

Our only hope is,

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

That we may become overcomers and set free from the bondage of commiting sin. That we may truly have that peace that passeth understanding.

Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

That is our surity, to be conformed to Him and in Him and His will become our will and love, then we commit no sin and our hope is assured.

Then we will not be a part of this "Emergent Church" business that is taking over or has, we will not as that is joining back into Great Babylon. As of now I do not know of the title of what it is that is coming into the SDA's but the above is the term that it is exposed by in some circles.

It may be with "mentoring" and "spiritual exercises" but anyway be alerted.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Isa 6:9 ¶ And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

I will just say this, so much has come in and so much is coming in so fast now that it is hard to sort it all out, it takes time, hard thinking and prayer and perseverance that few will exercise and the hour is so late it is fearful.

The facts of it all are so unbelievable I grant you.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Stan]

The Emerging Church - IS NOT ON THE ROAD To The One World Religion

[Gibs]

Stan,

Then I see the term is understood by you anyway. I understand it to be on the road to a one world Church. That is saying, you're OK and we are OK and we agree to disagree. To the mixing in of other than Christianity that may be the case, as of that I'm not certain at this point.

Stan what do you see "emerging church" on the road to? Is it in Adventism and in what way if you see that it is?

I can't see it gathering together with Zionist Judaism or Atheism etc. But I do see Christianity upholding Zionist Israel. Really anymore I don't believe much of anything unthinkabe but what could come about today.

Looking and watching!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I just got back from our Tuesday night study meeting where we mainly focus on the sanctuary but cover many other topics as well. About 6 or 8 of us gather regularly. Tonight was at the Assistant Pastors house. They (husband and wife) just got back from San Fran and a very large denominational meeting with all the various learned men and leadership in attendance, covering a few days length. They had a very interesting report on the Emerging Church issue. The threat is well known among the leadership and the discussion centered primarily on how to "meet it" at the local church level. It was encouraging to hear that leadership is taking it seriously and is well aware of it. It has not been an issue in my local church but seems to be a substantial threat in pockets around the country.

[John317]

... They had a very interesting report on the Emerging Church issue. The threat is well known among the leadership and the discussion centered primarily on how to "meet it" at the local church level. It was encouraging to hear that leadership is taking it seriously and is well aware of it. It has not been an issue in my local church but seems to be a substantial threat in pockets around the country.

Could you please summarize the "substantial threat" to the SDA church? How does the leadership you speak of see it?

[John317]

The Emerging Church - IS NOT ON THE ROAD To The One World Religion

Stan, what is your view of the Emerging Church, and where do you believe it is leading?

[ClubV12]

We only touched on it in the meeting tonight and I hope to meet with the Pastor soon and get more details. From what I understand this idea has gained a good foot hold in some Adventist churches resulting in extreme views of righteousness by faith.

While I don't think the emerging church is a local issue for my church; Due to this quarters study on Galations I have seen people swing hard from one side of the road to the other on the issue of law vs grace. It looks like the emerging church issue will push those that are "all about grace" to an even more extreme position.

[John317]

OK, thanks. I'll be interested to hear what you take away from the meetings you have with the pastor.

There are extremes we need to avoid on the issue of law vs. grace. One is that we can earn salvation by law-keeping, and the other is that faith in Christ releases us from obedience to God's moral law.

[Dr. Rich]

OK, thanks. I'll be interested to hear what you take away from the meetings you have with the pastor.

There are extremes we need to avoid on the issue of law vs. grace. One is that we can earn salvation by law-keeping, and the other is that faith in Christ releases us from obedience to God's moral law.

John, are you saying that one who keeps the first four of the ten commandments (along with the last 6) and also holds fast to the testimoney Jesus came to this world to give, can't be saved? Hmmm? Didn't Jesus say if you love Me then keep the (all) of the commandments? And didn't Jesus say if you want to be perfect (righteous) then also follow and do what Jesus said to do as found in Matt. 19?

I have asked you in the past to show me where Jesus taught that anyone could be saved by grace and you have attempted to do this, but failed. I also presented you with what Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13 about grace and you couldn't do that either.

Mater of fact (yes, it is fact) there is absolutly nothing that Jesus said about being saved by grace. Same goes for becoming righteous thru faith. Please check out what Jesus warned his bondservants about this in the book of Revelation.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

John, are you saying that one who keeps the first four of the ten commandments (along with the last 6) and also holds fast to the testimoney Jesus came to this world to give, can't be saved? [/quote']

In order for you to earn your salvation by obedience to law, you would have to obey it perfectly like Christ did. Otherwise, you need God's forgiveness and grace in order to be saved.

The reason the saved obey God is their love for Christ and their desire to do what pleases God. They do right because it is right, not in order to earn salvation or God's favor. There is no merit in obeying God.

Are you perfectly obeying God's commandments? Have you obeyed them from the time you were born? If not, you require God to forgive you, & forgiveness is another term for God's grace.

[John317]

...I have asked you in the past to show me where Jesus taught that anyone could be saved by grace and you have attempted to do this, but failed. I also presented you with what Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13 about grace and you couldn't do that either.

Mater of fact (yes, it is fact) there is absolutly nothing that Jesus said about being saved by grace.

John 1:16-17

And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 3:16-17

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

John 6:40

For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

[Guest]

In order for you to earn your salvation by obedience to law, you would have to obey it perfectly like Christ did. Otherwise, you need God's forgiveness and grace in order to be saved.

The reason the saved obey God is their love for Christ and their desire to do what pleases God. They do right because it is right, not in order to earn salvation or God's favor. There is no merit in obeying God.

Are you perfectly obeying God's commandments? Have you obeyed them from the time you were born? If not, you require God to forgive you, & forgiveness is another term for God's grace.

Exactly John! What is it that Rich cannot grasp about this?

You haven't lived a sinless life Rich, so you are in dire need of grace. Otherwise you are lost. Keeping the law from here on out (which you should) will not atone for your past sins, or earn you a ticket to heaven. The grace of God is our only hope.

[Dr. Rich]

Dear John, please allow me to make it clear as glass that all of the ten commandments together is the Covenant between God and those who want God to be their God. It is a contract much the same as a marriage covenant. Therefore, by the law of God which is just and perfect, when He is a party to this contract and will do just as He said He will do for anyone who is a party to this contract---those who keeps all of the commandments and follows the words of Jesus--period! There are no 'ifs' 'ands' or 'buts' about it. Grace is not involved here at all except that it was by the grace of God that He didn't execute Adam when Adam did not obey. If that had happened, then you and I would not be here!

If a person kept all of the ten commandments and held fast to the words of Jesus after asking for foregivness and therefore overcoming sin and becoming perfect as Jesus told us to do, and this person was not saved, then Jesus would be a liar. But Jesus didn't lie. The lies were from others who helped create the man made Christian religious entity.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, your post is irrevalent and is nonsense for the most part. What this thread is about is "The Emerging Church", it being one where the majority of people believe that they have been saved by grace and have become righteous by dying the death of Jesus and accepting Jesus righteousness as their own. This Jesus never taught or said anything about this. It makes no difference if I am a sinner or not--as the truth is singular and absolute. Facts are fact which you and I can't change. A lie believed for over 2000 years does not change it into the truth.

[ClubV12]

Righteousness by faith is just ONE of the many aspects of the Emerging Church. Other churches emphasize other aspects of this idea. R by F seems to be a rather unique to Adventists take on it.

In some ways this whole thing reminds me of the Occupy Wall St. idea. There not real sure about what they are protesting, there are a lot of different ideas, no formal leadership, maybe it will pass into oblivion, maybe something will grow out of it. Such is how I see the Emerging the Church. While it IS a threat to SOME Adventist churches I would not say it is widespread or will become widespread for one simple reason. The GC and leadership in general are very aware of this "movement" and are taking action to "meet it" and deal with it.

Will they succeed? Of course, we are told the church will not fall, even though it appears to fall. Is the Emerging Church idea part of "it will appear to fall" prophecy? For some it will be, but I reserve opinion on how wide spread it will become. I don't think it rises to the level of the "Omega Apostasy" at this time, and likely will not. It's far to easy to spot to qualify for that distinction. This is not yet a "startlying" and "surprising" movement sweeping the church.

[olger]

The Emerging Church - IS NOT ON THE ROAD To The One World Religion

You're shouting, bro.

However, according to Rick Howard, Herb Douglass, Ravi Zacharius, Kirk Cameron, GCWjr, and the BRI, it is!

[olger]

As to the EC, I refuse to call something a church that believes in everything and nothing.

I researched it extensively last year, and made these summary conclusions:

1) In the EC it is cool to seek God, it is not cool to find Him.

2) There is acceptance of atheism in the EC, along with the occult. I'm not making this up, either.

3) There is a deep current of spiritualism in the EC. Worse than most of us realize.

4) It has strong Catholic roots and has as a major goal to "pull" protestants back to mommy (father Richard Rohr).

5) According to Richard Rohr (one of the guiding thinkers of EC) the problem with Christianity is dualistic thinking

(right vs. wrong, good & bad etc..). Thus there is a full frontal assault to introduce "enlightenment" to transcend dualistic

thinking.

Righteousness by faith is not in the veins of EC nearly as much as universalism.

[John317]

...If a person kept all of the ten commandments and held fast to the words of Jesus after asking for foregivness and therefore overcoming sin and becoming perfect as Jesus told us to do, and this person was not saved, then Jesus would be a liar. But Jesus didn't lie.

Dr. Rich, it's true Jesus never lied. But you are confused about the way of salvation.

Have you yourself done what you claim is the way to be saved: that is, have your kept all the ten commandments and held fast to the words of Jesus since asking for forgiveness, and have you overcome all sin and become perfect? If not, you still desperately need God's grace.

If you expect to earn your salvation by obeying the law perfectly, I feel sorry for you because you will certainly be lost.

Jesus never said that is the way people are saved.

Here is the gospel:

John 1:12-13

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:16-17

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

1 John 2:1-2

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [2] He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 5:11-13

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

[13] I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Rev. 22:21

The grace [unmerited favor] of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

Genesis 6:8

But Noah found grace [unmerited favor] in the eyes of the Lord.

Genesis 15:6

And he [Abraham] believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Study the whole of Psalm 51. It is full of God's grace.