"The Emerging Church"

[John317]

I researched it extensively last year, and made these summary conclusions:

1) In the EC it is cool to seek God, it is not cool to find Him.

2) There is acceptance of atheism in the EC, along with the occult. I'm not making this up, either.

3) There is a deep current of spiritualism in the EC. Worse than most of us realize.

4) It has strong Catholic roots and has as a major goal to "pull" protestants back to mommy (father Richard Rohr).

5) According to Richard Rohr (one of the guiding thinkers of EC) the problem with Christianity is dualistic thinking

(right vs. wrong, good & bad etc..). Thus there is a full frontal assault to introduce "enlightenment" to transcend dualistic

thinking.

Thank you for this.

We need to be fully of aware of these things.

I'd like to hear a response from people say who support the EC.

[Tom Wetmore]

Not in support of EC... In support of truth because it is important.

Having read a great deal of writings of those from the so-called emergent movement, I don't recognize anything olger says as being truly representative of it.

I don't know what sort of "research" he did, but I suspect it was primarily works of criticism of and commentary about EC, fringe elements which are not truly representative. It doesn't sound like much in the way of original source material actually by those in the movement.

It would be rather like "researching" Adventists by extensively relying on the anti-Adventist websites, anti-EGW sources, shepherds rod and other fringe elements of Adventism.

[Gibs]

The emerging church theology is also that overcoming as is necessary is not possible.

Well it is possible and it is expected and one must put on the Divine Nature free to him and then with his will set to do His, Jesus' will he can overcome as Jesus did as he has the same power Jesus did. He even has an advantage over what Jesus had. Yes, because now Christ is now seen in you by the evil ones and Christ defeated them before you and now to you they are defeated foes, Satan and all.

Christ in you the hope of Glory is the same power as Christ had with the Father in Him. If you say how so? Well here is your answer,

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God (The Father) was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So, with Christ in you, Who then is in you?

Yes we must overcome by our choice and the exercise of our will and it is your victory if you will just take it.

Christ in you is the victory that overcomes the world, Satan and his angels.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[olger]

In the EC, doctrine is downplayed as divisive and experience is upheld as the universal solvent that dissolves our differences.

Fr. Richard Rohr is one of the guiding thinkers of the EC and his presentations at ECC conferences include:

The Sacred Feminine - 7-23-2011 Albuquerque, NM "As we remember the feast day of Mary Magdalene on July 22, we will explore the spiritual freedom and possibility that both John the Beloved and Mary Magdalene handed on to us from Jesus.

Through teaching, prayer and experiential rituals, we will be invited to begin healing the split, in relationship to ourselves, to the other, and to the world."

Wisdom School - Mat 1-5, 2011 Ghost Ranch, NM "Since time immemorial Wisdom schools have formed at times of great spiritual and cultural transition as a crucible of transformation, and a meeting ground between ancient, time-tested practices and emerging spiritual insight. The core principle is the assertion that deep Christianity cannot be accessed by the mind alone; it requires a transformation of the entire being. If the Christianity is truly to emerge as the path of mystical illumination and compassionate action that it truly can be, it will be through the courageous commitment of those willing to follow the call to the next level of conscious evolution.

This Wisdom School brings together Cynthia Bourgeault and Richard Rohr (who will join us for the first 2 two days), both gifted teachers in the ancient wisdom ways of contemplative prayer, particularly as it supports the emergence of non-dualistic thinking and action."

This is but a few of the thousands of references available. In spite of Tom's effort to portray EC as something good, there is cancer under the surface. Dr. Jovan Markovic has researched this movement in detail and his words to me last year "This thing is a monster."

gcw

[Tom Wetmore]

... In spite of Tom's effort to portray EC as something good, there is cancer under the surface. Dr. Jovan Markovic has researched this movement in detail and his words to me last year "This thing is a monster."

gcw

FIrst of all, perhaps you missed my opening phrase "Not in defense of EC". I did not say it was something good. I was defending truth and accuracy. That you so quickly either misread or intentionally misrepresented what I so clearly said right here makes me a bit skeptical of what you represent about EC.

And second, if you are relying on Dr. Marovic's word on the matter, you are doing as I suspected, relying on other's research and commentary and not going to original sources to do your research.

How much of the writings of so-called EC thought leaders have you read cover to cover yourself? Reading excerpts selected by others critical of the movement really doesn't count for much if you really are seeking to understand it. It just helps you understand the critics' pov.

[olger]

I have read some of McClaren, Pagitt, Rohr and several others. I have a lot of notes. Thanks for your interest. Sorry if I misstated your position.

G

[Tom Wetmore]

When you say "some of", which books of theirs have you read completely?

[ClubV12]

Seems to me there would only be two sources. Those opposed and those who support.

Which original source would be offer an unbiased opinion?

[olger]

Exactly. Tom is looking for a way to discredit my research - and he'll find a way. That's ok.

I read more than enough of the three aforementioned authors to gather context, stories and thrust. I also read some of Samir Selmanovic, and I read the silly story the Shack. Tom likes the Shack and I don't.

[ClubV12]

While I want to understand more about this Emerging church issue, I have no particular burden to study it in depth. I've studied enough of it to have determined it is folly. For me, there are many other subjects worthy of my study time.

To some degree we all have to choose what to delve into deeply, there is simply to much going on to do it all. I appreciate the research folks like Olger have done and others on other subjects.

[Gibs]

ClubV12

You couldn't be studying into a more important subject than is being discussed here. And while you are at it look into "Mentoring", "Spiritual Formation" and where those two are coming from.

The IBMTE, "international board of ministerial and theological education", of the GC mandated that spiritual formation in all 13 world regions at every level and type of minister. That was Sept. 2001.

What are those two? I don't have a solid answer myself, but I have an idea of my own. There is some on board here may be able to help on that.

I have been away from it too long. Being over 80 yrs. now much has gone by me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Tom Wetmore]

Exactly. Tom is looking for a way to discredit my research - and he'll find a way. That's ok.

I read more than enough of the three aforementioned authors to gather context, stories and thrust. I also read some of Samir Selmanovic, and I read the silly story the Shack. Tom likes the Shack and I don't.

Your own conclusions do a fine job of discredit without my help.

But you have just confirmed with the response that you "read more than enough", which seems like a little here and there, that you really haven't gone too deep or wide into what its really all about.

And I am not so sure how you connect The Shack to the EC Movement. I seriously doubt that the author of that novel would consider himself or be considered by others to be an EC movement thought leader or spokesman. Do you even know the story behind his writing of that story?

[BobRyan]

Not in support of EC... In support of truth because it is important.

Having read a great deal of writings of those from the so-called emergent movement, I don't recognize anything olger says as being truly representative of it.

I don't know what sort of "research" he did, but I suspect it was primarily works of criticism

Aside from criticizing what you imagine and suspect about Olger - you have not actually said anything at all about the EC topic itself.

Those of us reading and accustomed to a degree of critical thinking - would not fail to notice that little detail.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

One shouldn't confuse critical thinking with criticism or being a critic. Very different things. I do not see anything resembling critical thinking about EC thus far.

As I said, I am not here to defend EC. What I am concerned about is truth telling.

Olger has confirmed that he has not actually thoroughly read the writings of those who are directly involved in the EC Movement. He read the critics and criticism about it and appears to parrot that here.

My point is that I have read numerous articles by those in the EC movement and read cover to cover at least a half dozen books just by Brian McLaren. I read olger's conclusions and do not recognize them as resembling anything I have read. That is all.

I really do not care to defend the EC movement. I remain skeptical of it. But I simply don't think it helps to misrepresent it. It is substantially more than the simplistic conclusions he has posted. And thus far olger really hasn't done much to bolster my confidence in his "research".

That is all I am saying.

Read here for yourself -

http://www.emergentvillage.com/about-information/values-and-practices

http://wwww.emergentvillage.com/archive/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church

And here is a book that is a collection of the articles by the leading voices in the movement - http://www.amazon.com/Emergent-Manifesto-Hope-mersion-communities/dp/080106807X

Scan through the table of contents. Notice that Richard Rohr is not among them? If he is one of the thought leaders of the EC movement as olger has suggested, why is Rohr not included?

[ClubV12]

I have no burden to dig deep into this "important" subject matter. I'll leave that to those who do have a burden. I don't see a need to study in depth every wind of doctrine that blows. I don't need to understand every argument about the allegations of biblical contradictions, Sister White contradictions, Buddhism and what ever is the next "threat to the church". Concerning Dr. Kelloggs book, Sister White said don't even read it, and that was the Alpha of Apostasies!

I'm glad the Conference leaders are studying this, I'm glad we have people on this board studying it. I'm OK with that, right now I'm studying the Sanctuary message. I'll keep an eye peeled on this "latest and greatest" threat to the church. I don't underestimate the danger, it's just not my calling at this time.

Consider the many and varied interpretations of doctrine we see on this board concerning prophecy as an example. Chasing down and figuring out every one of them would leave not time for studying the commentaries, the counsel of Sister White, the counsel of the brethren, the churchs position on bible TRUTH. Ya got to know your limits.

The Emergent Church issue is pretty straight forward though, it's not a huge mystery. It's wrong, it's a fools game, seen enough to know that, don't need see more to determine that.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

This is not just some little wind of doctrine that is blowing it is actually more than going back into Rome, it is going into Babylon the Great which is the gathering of old and new Babylon and all that goes with it to bring about a new one world religion, we are one to agree we can have different sees and yet we all are on the same path to heaven. You are OK and I am OK we can all be happy and blessed, just believe.

It is a gathering into Babylon the Great and God calls for His to come out of her.

Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

This gathering has been going on now for many years and is now almost completed, the cup is at the brim.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Not in support of EC... In support of truth because it is important.

Having read a great deal of writings of those from the so-called emergent movement, I don't recognize anything olger says as being truly representative of it.

I don't know what sort of "research" he did, but I suspect it was primarily works of criticism of and commentary about EC, fringe elements which are not truly representative. It doesn't sound like much in the way of original source material actually by those in the movement.

It would be rather like "researching" Adventists by extensively relying on the anti-Adventist websites, anti-EGW sources, shepherds rod and other fringe elements of Adventism.

Tom, all you've written here is your conclusion that olger is in error about the EC.

Can you show examples of how or why olger's statements are false?

Do you believe you've already shown this in your post #495461?

I do agree with you that genuine research into this topic does not consist in studying anti-EC writings.

[Tom Wetmore]

The problem is that the EC movement is wildly divergent. There is no central motive, dogma, structure, leadership or body of believers in whatever it represents. It is a movement of people coming from organized religion of all stripes and the ideas tend to reflect the wide diversity of their backgrounds. It is wide open rethinking of many things with not a lot set in concrete. For every idea there are countless variations and opposing points of view. It is very hard to draw a firm conclusion about it.

Brian McLaren is consider to be one of the most prominent thought leaders in the movement. He is probably among the more orthodox, although as he is fond of saying, generously orthodox. It is primarily from his perspective that I would judge the movement's trends or directions. Read here - http://brianmclaren.net/

Addressing olger's conclusions is like trying to prove a negative. A completely different paradigm that bears little in common with anything I have read in the actual works of the EC thought leaders.

[Dr. Rich]

Good post and right on point. The EC is really nothing more than a bonding of the Jews, Catholics and Christians against the opposite who are also bonding or will shortly be bonding, them being Islam, Buddists and all Eastern type of religions.

It is interesting that Dan. 11's prophecy about a power of the North verses a power of the South will happen and while both of them shourt at the other that they are following Satan, God tells both of them that they both are evil. So, my question then is; "What is it in being a Christian is evil?"

[ClubV12]

The question is: IS this the "movement" that will bring about the consolidation of the Roman/Christians powers? We can surmise it will be some doctrinal point similiar to this where the two (or more) groups can find some common ground, some unity. Is the Emerging/Emergent church doctrine "it"?

Maybe, it might play a roll, but it might not. I suspect the Catholic leadership see's it in much the same as the Adventists do, a threat to the organizations power base and leadership. This could lead to all kinds of problems with other doctrines within any given church. Righteousness by faith in the Adventist church, all though it may be identified with a different term by some, the effect remains the same for all. "Works" are out, all the way out, for everybody. I'm not sure the Catholics will go along with that, their modus operandi is largely based on works. Their concept of works/grace differs significantly from Adventists but the "terms" and "words" remain the same. The definitions are miles apart.

I think this push to come together will be based on catastrophic National events myself. Economic disaster (looming large) and civil unrest. I wouldn't underestimate the Catholics using "Emerging church" as a "cover" to attain this goal depending on the timing.

For Adventists in particular I think it will be a much more subtle and difficult to detect heresy. Some "new light", tied in with prophecy maybe, where the path of truth lays very close to the path of error. Few will see it for what it is. We see a LOT of that right here on this forum. Many folks are unable to distinguish between truth and error, love and unity are to often trump cards used at all costs.

Emerging church will certainly be a snare for some, perhaps many (in the Adventist church), but I think it will be something more insidious for us. So insidious even the leadership will be confused and won't know for awhile quite how to deal with it, they may even accept it initially! While the voices of a few who DO see it won't be heard right away. It may well appear the "church is about to fall", whole churches may go out!

Schools and hospitals closing, fires that cannot be extinguished burning some of our institutions. Earth quakes destroying others. And not just the church, everywhere as the Lord withdraws His protection and His anger against the church is kindled. This "strange thing" the Lord does, anger and love, at once. Justice to purify, mixed with mercy. Who can understand the ways of the Lord?

Stand firm! We need Joshua and Caleb more than ever today, willing to suffer with Gods people and stay with them, no matter what.

[Gibs]

I think I would find out as fast as I could if the SDA church isn't already caught up in the snare of the "Emergent Church". Look into emergent with who and what all and the all is no doubt mostly of the evil.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Actually, I hope to do that soon. My Pastor just returned from a Conference in San Fran that addressed this, among other things. The Holidays and scheduling and such make getting together difficult, but I'm anxious to hear some more of the details from him (and her). Sometimes I have a hard time separating "them", man and wife. Never seen anything like it, they move as "one". :)

[Bert]

I have not been aware of a religious organization called the Emergent Church. I read most of the hyperlinks concerning their goals, practices, etc., and find that there is no central belief structure, and that it is a conglomeration of denominational members, including Catholics as well as Adventists and other Protestant faiths. Its thrust seems to be of a universal nature...brotherhood, love, cooperation among all members, and a simple message that appeals to those who seek a purported love of God and profess to be followers of Christ. Within that context, I find it impracticable as a unified religious organization in that it brings convergent beliefs from each segment of the denominations that are members. It seems to refrain from identifying any particular church or group as being apostate within the purview of eschatological events in Daniel and Revelation. As far as I could tell, it is silent on the Sabbath issue, and does not emphasize the Ten Commandments.

It has all of the markings of an apostate outgrowth of people who have become discontented with their own churches and they are swept into the 'fuzzy soft' practices of this group.

Because of the appealing nature of the organization, it can be a stumbling block for those Christians who are not firmly set into the truth. It behooves each of us as Christians and members of the remnant church to become so familiar with Bible truths that we cannot be easily swayed as a 'reed in the wind'.

[ClubV12]

Well said Bert, and welcome to Club Adventist. Stick around.

[Bert]

Thank you. Have been a member for awhile, but have not been active on here, but rather have been on Beliefnet.