For God so Loved The World.

[M. T. Cross]

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

—John 3:16

I used to ask this a lot when I was a little kid.

How was he begotten if there is no Mother? How is it that everywhere in nature there is masculine and feminine, yet there is not with god?

[Q.E.D.]

How was he begotten if there is no Mother? How is it that everywhere in nature there is masculine and feminine, yet there is not with god?

God is our Father by the authorship of our creation. The term "Father" does not necessarily have to imply that there is a "Mother" God.

The verbiage "only begotten son" only applies in the temporal earthly sense. Jesus Christ did have a mother and her name was Mariam. It is a given that the God of heaven is not like anything that you can imagine in substance or earthly makeup. What we know from our existence here in time, matter and space has all been created by God and therefore God cannot have any of these attributes as part of His makeup. God is outside of our physical reality.

"7 ¶ I will declare *the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."(Ps 2:7)

"30 But God raised him from the dead:

31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure *mercies of David."(Acts 13:30-34)

[M. T. Cross]

Yet in most all of his creation there is male and female. Biblically it seems very important who begat who. I mean there is a whole, incredibly boring, section in there on the begattings. Since we all know that for that to happen we need a male and a female. So unless that were the case why would we be so quick to assume that the God of heaven may not have a female partner.

I knew the mother Mary thing would come up - but this verse really implies that he was already begotten before he came here as Jesus.

[Q.E.D.]

Yet in most all of his creation there is male and female. Biblically it seems very important who begat who. I mean there is a whole, incredibly boring, section in there on the begattings. Since we all know that for that to happen we need a male and a female. So unless that were the case why would we be so quick to assume that the God of heaven may not have a female partner.

[M. T. Cross]

For God so loved the world that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON

Now if you and I are the children of God due to being created by him, this implies that Jesus is different. He was the Begotten Son. It says to me that he was already begotten before he was given to this earth.

If I give you a dog, its already a dog when I give it to you. You would say - for EC so loved me he gave me a dog. Not - For EC so loved me that he gave me something that became a dog.

[Aliensanctuary]

We could read this passage as ...only human-born son...

This may imply that the LORD has other, non-human "sons" who did not begin their life's journey after exiting through a birth canal, but originating by some other means.

[M. T. Cross]

We could read this passage as ...only human-born son...

This may imply that the LORD has other, non-human "sons" who did not begin their life's journey after exiting through a birth canal, but originating by some other means.

Absolutely. It could mean all of those things.

What was he before being human born then though?

[BibleOnly]

Absolutely. It could mean all of those things.

What was he before being human born then though?

'

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I think you're over intellectualising. I think that it's clear that Jesus is not God's Son in the sense of God starting a family and Jesus being the first born of the marriage. The relationship is being explained in terms that humans can easily understand. And I am certain He has no other children, apart from the adoptive ones. That's using logical inversion to try to find something that's plainly not there.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Absolutely. It could mean all of those things.

What was he before being human born then though?

'

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I think you're over intellectualising. I think that it's clear that Jesus is not God's Son in the sense of God starting a family and Jesus being the first born of the marriage. The relationship is being explained in terms that humans can easily understand. And I am certain He has no other children, apart from the adoptive ones. That's using logical inversion to try to find something that's plainly not there.

Again the word begotten.

I don't think I am. This is something that I have been thining about since I was around 6 years old. I am still thinking about it cause I got answers just like that. To me - looking at creation - I f God created so much on this earth with feminine and masculine, I am thinking he was working off of a model of heaven.

Why are you so sure he has no other children?

[BibleOnly]

Again the word begotten.

I don't think I am. This is something that I have been thining about since I was around 6 years old. I am still thinking about it cause I got answers just like that. To me - looking at creation - I f God created so much on this earth with feminine and masculine, I am thinking he was working off of a model of heaven.

Why are you so sure he has no other children?

For a couple of reasons. First of all, again, I don't think Jesus is His Son in every way that we'd imagine the word, but that it's a way to explain the relationship for the purpose of the human mind. Second, to say that 'only begotten' means He has other, non begotten children, but didn't tell us about it, is legalistic thinking, it's trying to look for the loopholes in the statement to see what can be inferred from what is NOT said. Why would God need other children ? Jesus came to save our souls, why would He keep these other brothers and sisters secret ? For what purpose would they exist ? I don't even think God is a man in the sense that we think of male, but rather that describing Him that way, helps us to understand His nature, in the sense that the man is the head of the house, etc ( in fact, I'd go further and say we have male and female with these roles, in order to illustrate the nature of the relationship between God and the church ).

So, I think you're looking for secret codes in the Bible, when perhaps there's more to be gained from looking at what God wanted to tell us, rather than trying to figure out if He kept anything a secret.

When I was 6, I wondered about 'The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want', because I thought surely I would want Him to be my shepherd. Kids think about things differently, and there's nothing wrong with that, but sometimes the things they think about, don't really make sense, or lead to anything profitable.

[M. T. Cross]

I see your point to a degree

But

Again, looking at life around us, if God created us, why is there the balance in life here with the male and female if there where none in heaven?

I am not looking for something that is not there, trying to decode anything. I am just saying maybe we are looking at something right in front of our face and not seeing it for what it is.

Of course one thinks about a lot of things when they are a kid. This is just something that really stuck with me.

[M. T. Cross]

For a couple of reasons. First of all, again, I don't think Jesus is His Son in every way that we'd imagine the word, but that it's a way to explain the relationship for the purpose of the human mind. Second, to say that 'only begotten' means He has other, non begotten children, but didn't tell us about it, is legalistic thinking, it's trying to look for the loopholes in the statement to see what can be inferred from what is NOT said. Why would God need other children ? Jesus came to save our souls, why would He keep these other brothers and sisters secret ? For what purpose would they exist ? I don't even think God is a man in the sense that we think of male, but rather that describing Him that way, helps us to understand His nature, in the sense that the man is the head of the house, etc ( in fact, I'd go further and say we have male and female with these roles, in order to illustrate the nature of the relationship between God and the church ).

Why would he need other children? Because he is God and can have whatever he wants I guess. Why did he feel the need to create the world and humans?

[BibleOnly]

I see your point to a degree

But

Again, looking at life around us, if God created us, why is there the balance in life here with the male and female if there where none in heaven?

I am not looking for something that is not there, trying to decode anything. I am just saying maybe we are looking at something right in front of our face and not seeing it for what it is.

Of course one thinks about a lot of things when they are a kid. This is just something that really stuck with me.

Well, the obvious answer is, there is no marriage in 'heaven'. Therefore there won't be male and female, in marriage, having children.

[BibleOnly]

Why would he need other children? Because he is God and can have whatever he wants I guess. Why did he feel the need to create the world and humans?

Not true. God doesn't do what He feels like, at random, He is constrained by His Word and by righteousness. Why did He create the world and humans ?

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

He did it so He could have a creation to interact with, and gave us free will so we could choose Him.

[M. T. Cross]

Which begs the question. If heaven is to be a genderless place why did God create us - and most things on this planet - with gender?

Before the fall were we not to be elevated above the angels? If procreation were not important to God why did he create just one man and one woman, and told them to go forth and multiply?

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Why would he need other children? Because he is God and can have whatever he wants I guess. Why did he feel the need to create the world and humans?

Not true. God doesn't do what He feels like, at random, He is constrained by His Word and by righteousness. Why did He create the world and humans ?

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

He did it so He could have a creation to interact with, and gave us free will so we could choose Him.

Did he not already have the angels? Plus all the other life he had created elswhere?

Free will........ that is worth its own thread as it seems like a bit of a cruel joke.

[BibleOnly]

Which begs the question. If heaven is to be a genderless place why did God create us - and most things on this planet - with gender?

Before the fall were we not to be elevated above the angels? If procreation were not important to God why did he create just one man and one woman, and told them to go forth and multiply?

Well, this leads to an interesting question. Do you believe that God intended Adam and Eve to live in Eden forever and was shocked when that didn't work out ?

The Bible answers these questions.

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Marriage is an example of the union between Christ and the church. God knew the end from the beginning and set these things up for our instruction.

[BibleOnly]

Did he not already have the angels? Plus all the other life he had created elswhere?

Free will........ that is worth its own thread as it seems like a bit of a cruel joke.

Well, free will is interesting, if you understand how the brain works, it seems we're not as free as we'd like. But, we believe we are, and we go through a process of choice, even if that choice is influenced by our brain. The Bible also says God chooses us, we don't choose Him. It's a thorny problem but I tend to think that we've been given the illusion of free will, which works to a point ( I can't do what ever I like and say 'I had no free will, I DO have a choice ), but that God, knowing the end from the beginning, knew what I would choose before I chose it.

As for the rest,

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

I think a fundamental point is that a follower of God is not His equal, and should not expect to question Him, or even to understand everything He does

1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Which begs the question. If heaven is to be a genderless place why did God create us - and most things on this planet - with gender?

Before the fall were we not to be elevated above the angels? If procreation were not important to God why did he create just one man and one woman, and told them to go forth and multiply?

Well, this leads to an interesting question. Do you believe that God intended Adam and Eve to live in Eden forever and was shocked when that didn't work out ?

The Bible answers these questions.

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Marriage is an example of the union between Christ and the church. God knew the end from the beginning and set these things up for our instruction.

[BibleOnly]

I don't know what God intended. Seriously the whole idea of an Almighty deity creating life here with the rules that he put in place if he already knew it was going to fail is beyond me. So he knew that so very many souls would be lost but he did it anyway?

[M. T. Cross]

First before I respond, can yu clarify what you mean by "Experience the Gospels"?

[BibleOnly]

First before I respond, can yu clarify what you mean by "Experience the Gospels"?

In the Bible, we know we are in Him because we have the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit comes with evidence. It's not just an idea, but something tangible. That is why it overcomes people wrestling with ideas and human logic.

[M. T. Cross]

Ok

Well as much as I have studied the bible, prayed to the God of the bible, no spirit has moved me to see it as "truth". Not in its whole. I truly believe that to just accept its teachings simply because it says its the truth would be really irresponsible. Not just the Bible, but any spiritual teaching. I could write something, tell you God inspired me, and tell you its the truth. Does not make it so. While I get the premise of blind faith, I don't understand how people do it.

[Kountzer]

You sure spend a lot of time posting how much you don't believe this or that. There are belief systems out there, both christian & non christian that I don't pay attention too. At least not to the point of posting on their forums.

I am not saying you should leave. I don't have the authority or inclination to say that. I am saying that the fact that you spend time here posting here shows that you have some interest in the doctrines of this church. I think deep inside you realize there is truth being taught that you don't want to accept.

[M. T. Cross]

You sure spend a lot of time posting how much you don't believe this or that. There are belief systems out there, both christian & non christian that I don't pay attention too. At least not to the point of posting on their forums.

I am not saying you should leave. I don't have the authority or inclination to say that. I am saying that the fact that you spend time here posting here shows that you have some interest in the doctrines of this church. I think deep inside you realize there is truth being taught that you don't want to accept.

Or that I was raised in it, and am at a point in my life where I need to reconcile the things I was taught as a kid with what I now believe, the light I have discovered along the way. Beyond that I enjoy good religious debate.