Taking the Bible too literally

[cardw]

[Dr. Waite]

Jesus Christ was NOT God's "only" son. He was his "only begotten" son. God also has sons by creation and by adoption:

"A complete offering has been made; for “God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,”—not a son by creation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father’s person, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." {ST May 30, 1895, par. 3}

[BobRyan]

The atheist view of the Gospel is that mankind does not need anything - it is ok for us to simply live suffer disease and oppression and die -- with nothing to follow, since we are just the result of pond slime "given time".

The atheist view is that what we have today in modern nations is much better than the caveman days - so this is actually atheist "heaven" to start with.

By contrast - the Christian view given through the Gospel found in the Bible - is that "eternal life" in a deathless, sinless, disease-less context where the entire universe is ours to explore in full and open fellowship with God and the Angels - was our FIRST heritage our FIRST estate, the condition from which mankind FELL.

Christian view is that all those things did not "just happen" but rather that the sovereign of the universe with infinite wisdom and power MADE it all -- and also setup LAW that governs the universe - a law that included penalty for sin to ensure the stability and security of the Universe for all time.

For the atheist this would be "taking the Bible too literally".

For the Christian - it is the story of eternal life - restored.

The atheist is free to then argue that they would prefer to burn in the lake of fire of Rev 20 rather than have to put their faith in the Word of God. They want "no king" but self.

Well ok - to each his own. We believe in free will after all.

in Christ,

Bob

[fccool]

The cartoon in the other thread was originally posted by my Christian friend on facebook.

I really think that I should not have posted the cartoon. It really was not my way of "sticking it" to Christians, but simply showing that there are inconsistencies in our understanding of things that are humorous at times. It was not a way to demean anything but hypocrisy of approaches. Any faith will have them.

I'm sorry that you take it so personally as to not find any humor or hidden lesson in that from whichever position you come from.

Certainly did not mean for Richard to get in and helping with some other...

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The atheist view of the Gospel is that mankind does not need anything - it is ok for us to simply live suffer disease and oppression and die -- with nothing to follow, since we are just the result of pond slime "given time".

This is really a terrible appeal that misrepresents beliefs of other people.

Quote:

The atheist view is that what we have today in modern nations is much better than the caveman days - so this is actually atheist "heaven" to start with.

That's partially true, except the heaven part. In fact, you believe the same thing. Don't you believe that what we have today is better than what cave-dwellers had? Would you dismiss the scientific progress as a terrible thing?

Quote:

By contrast - the Christian view given through the Gospel found in the Bible - is that "eternal life" in a deathless, sinless, disease-less context where the entire universe is ours to explore in full and open fellowship with God and the Angels - was our FIRST heritage our FIRST estate, the condition from which mankind FELL.

And how exactly make the claim of itself better? One can have a claim that after death people really don't die, because they are immortal gods that merely come to this earth to experience suffering as fun. Thus, while people really suffer, they are really gods in their subconscious states that enjoy that type of stuff. But when the game is over and they die, they come back to the higher plane of existence and they enjoy the eternity of creative, egalitarian, and eternal bliss.

How is the above view any worse that the one that you describe? You would reject the above based on your view, but you won't be able to provide me any evidence to disprove that view... and that view sounds much better than yours.

So... should we go with that one, because it holds human beings to even higher esteem, and thus it is superior to Christian view?

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The atheist is free to then argue that they would prefer to burn in the lake of fire of Rev 20 rather than have to put their faith in the Word of God. They want "no king" but self.

And that's where I think Atheists tend to get a bit irritated. Their view does not dictate that one person should be put to horrific death for not ascribing to a certain belief, like atheism. They find that objectionable. Atheism/Agnosticism is egalitarian in nature. It's not that they are "kings to themselves", they see people as equals, not having certain knowledge beyond what they can perceive. Thus they consider people in the same boat as them, no worse, and no better.

You on other hand, don't find it objectionable that mere lack of Christian faith results in such horrific death. In fact, I think you almost seem to celebrate this horrible idea. I don't wish it upon anyone, neither I think it's just to do that to anyone purely based on lack of evidence that they base their belief on.

Most of atheists/agnostics did nothing to deserve such horrific death even by human standards. If there comes a time, and your view to be proven true, and perhaps these people would rather face fire than eternity in heaven... so be it. But what you are saying here is that God hides himself from people, and reveals himself in an incoherent claims of old. And based on belief or rejection of these claims, one would suffer the terrible fate of fire, or spend the blissful eternity of exploring the universe with no space-suits on.

We are more merciful to our criminals. How can you call your God merciful, if you describe Him to be less merciful than our criminal system?

[BobRyan]

The atheist view of the Gospel is that mankind does not need anything - it is ok for us to simply live suffer disease and oppression and die -- with nothing to follow, since we are just the result of pond slime "given time".

[M. T. Cross]

It is like small clan of horse thieves in the old west telling themselves the story "we are all just fine - we will never be called to account because that would not be loving".

in Christ,

Bob

Atheists and horse thieves.

If nothing else Bob Ryan, I will continue to read your posts for the wild wild analogies you come up with.

[CoAspen]

They are certainly original.......not particularly applicable to subjects! But, hey, who's perfect!!

[Tom Wetmore]

Well ok - to each his own.

If only...

If truly accepted it would also lead to letting well enough alone.

[cardw]

Well ok - to each his own. We believe in free will after all.

Your version of free will is believe or die.

That's totalitarianism. That is the opposite of free will.

[Igakusei]

Your version of free will is believe or die.

That's totalitarianism. That is the opposite of free will.

[BobRyan]

This just proves how illogical the atheist view is.

"Because God will cast everyone who does not submit to His Law into the lake of fire --- I choose the lake of fire".

It is as nonsensical as the murderer saying "because the state says I must either accept this full pardon and live as a good citizen or face execution - I choose execution. Those guys are just making me angry so I prefer to be executed.".

The lack of logic in their argument is more than a little apparent.

in Christ,

Bob

[M. T. Cross]

Not really Bob, one has to actually believe there is a lake of fire to go swimming in before deciding to dive in.

By definition and atheist does not believe in any God(s) therefore does not think there is a lake of fire. So not one of them is deciding to dive in a lake of fire. Or any other punishment that any other religion hands out.

[doug yowell]

This just proves how illogical the atheist view is.

"Because God will cast everyone who does not submit to His Law into the lake of fire --- I choose the lake of fire".

It is as nonsensical as the murderer saying "because the state says I must either accept this full pardon and live as a good citizen or face execution - I choose execution. Those guys are just making me angry so I prefer to be executed.".

The lack of logic in their argument is more than a little apparent.

in Christ,

Bob

I would prefer to substitute the words common sense, self-preservation in place of the word logic. If the atheist hates the idea of God that much it seems rather logical that they would willingly choose death rather than life under the burden of submitting to the authority of something they find so repulsive. "Those that hate Me love death." It seems the only logical choice.

[BobRyan]

Good point Doug - and that gets us to the real "free will" issue here.

God does allow free will and many in this life go on mocking god (as several Opening posts demonstrate) without any "instant bolt of lightning" putting a halt to their choice in favor of rebellion against the Creator of the Universe - the Great I AM.

But some day that "lake of fire" event will take place and those that have said "yes well I prefer the lake of fire to being held accountable for my actions" - will have their stubborn choice eventually honored in full.

It is up to Christians to explain the situation clearly and not leave those in rebellion under the delusion of the form "well now - there there - it is really not so very bad to reject eternal life. All will be well with you because you are in my view just a good-ol-boy". (And we do see a lot of that confused theology floating around these days.)

in Christ,

Bob

[M. T. Cross]

Where do you get the opinion that atheists HATE God. Very hard to hate something one does not believe exists!!!!

No hate, I know lots and lots of atheists and not one of them hates God. They simply do not believe he exists because there is nothing but one book proclaiming that he does.

Why is that so hard to understand?

[BobRyan]

By definition and atheist does not believe in any God(s) therefore does not think there is a lake of fire. So not one of them is deciding to dive in a lake of fire. Or any other punishment that any other religion hands out.

[BobRyan]

Where do you get the opinion that atheists HATE God.

So you posted on this thread linked below "as if" you had seen the video.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post498181

Now you seem to argue as if you never saw it.

in Christ,

Bob

[olger]

An atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.

stay cool,

g

[cardw]

The atheist would prefer to pretend there is no God, no accountability - no possibility of having their life come up in review and compared against the perfect Law of God in a system where the "wages of sin is death" Romans 6.

[BobRyan]

An atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.

That is deep olger!!

Thanks.

in Christ,

Bob

[olger]

[cardw]

An atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.

Exactly why would a thief be looking for a policeman?

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Where do you get the opinion that atheists HATE God.

So you posted on this thread linked below "as if" you had seen the video.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post498181

Now you seem to argue as if you never saw it.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob my only post in that thread is about your apparent fascination with horse thieves.

No I never did watch the video.

I am sure some claiming to be atheists hate the idea of God.

Some proclaiming to be Christians are white supremisists. Does that make all Christians racists? Of course not.

Hateful people will be hatefull people regardless of religious stance.

[doug yowell]

But some day that "lake of fire" event will take place and those that have said "yes well I prefer the lake of fire to being held accountable for my actions" - will have their stubborn choice eventually honored in full.

It is up to Christians to explain the situation clearly and not leave those in rebellion under the delusion of the form "well now - there there - it is really not so very bad to reject eternal life. All will be well with you because you are in my view just a good-ol-boy".

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, and sadly each person will be reminded of the hundreds(at least) of opportunities they had to reconsider their descision, the innumerable number of times they ignored the call of God in their conscience, the many times they ridiculed the commonplace messengers of that invitation, and the fearless public declarations of their assurances that nothing can adjudicate the authority of their actions. What a waste of human life. What an eternal opportunity squandered.Sigh.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: olger

An atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.

That is deep olger!!

This makes no sense.

You guys have a tendency to consider nonsense deep.