On Misogyny and Christianity: Women, Know Your Place!

[miz3]

My problem with the "Holy Ghost" is pretty simple. There are thousands of Christian denominations. Over the years I've had a number of very committed Christian friends who wanted nothing more in life than to love and understand God and do his will. In every single instance, these friends honestly believed that their denomination had the "Truth" because they believed that the Holy Spirit guided their study. Some of them believed in the rapture, some in salvation by grace, some in salvation by works, several in salvation by various incoherent combinations of salvation by grace and works, some in hell, some in annihilation, and even one in a female member of the Godhead. Some believed that we are fallen angels ourselves, some believed that everyone eventually gets to heaven, and others believed that most people will spend eternity in Hell. These are people that spent many hours every week in earnest Bible study, seeking truth and praying for guidance from the Holy Spirit.

The only answers I've ever gotten in response to this observation are variations on "God gives different people what they need," which is a complete non-answer cop-out. If the Christian God really does exist, and cares enough us to guide us towards truth, you wouldn't have that many competing opinions. You can extend it to honest people of faith in other religions, too.

Finally, you wouldn't have people like the OP and I who only stopped believing after years and years of honest searching, not finding anything that made coherent sense. Why has the Holy Spirit never guided me?

My answer to you Igakusei is that if you are honest in heart, which only you and God know for sure, then the Holy Spirit has indeed guided you and your life. You are right where God wants you at this time. He may want you in a different place in the future or He may not. Whatever the case you are responsible to be where God wants you to be.

You might ask, then why did I go from Christianity (SDA I think you said, correct me if I am wrong in that), to being a full nonbeliever in God and the Bible?

That would be an excellent question. The answer is very simple, assuming that you are honest in heart which only you and God know. God is using you for His purposes. Only God knows what that purpose/s is/are.

It may not seem to make sense but then what human really knows the workings of God so that he, the human, can make sense of God and His ways. The Bible says that God and His ways are beyond knowing.

The only thing we humans can do is trust God and let Him sort everything out in His Time and in His Way.

This is why many Christians get ahead of God by thinking they have to proselytize every one who does not believe as they do. God has not said to do this.

Yes, yes, I know the "Great Commission" thing in Matthew chapter twenty-eight. I am not being inconsistent in this regard given that text. I know what I am doing.

God never ever said that we humans were to proselytize anyone without His guidance (Holy Spirit). Many Christians (wrongly thinking that God is with them) err in that they think they must go and make great efforts to make the whole world believe exactly as they do.

As God gives me opportunity I speak as God has taught me. However it is not my business nor my responsibility to convince, make people, try and force people to believe exactly as I do.

The Bible says that is not my Business. I am only to do and be exactly what God says. If God like He did with Andrew in the Book of Acts tells Andrew to preach to the Eunuch then we preach. If God says don't go there and don't tell then we must be quiet.

It is unfortunate, especially in the SDA Church .org that Christians think they are to on their own initiative supposed make the whole World and every person believe like them or those people will burn in Hell.

The Bible does not support such fanaticism. I could go on citing numerous Bible texts to support my position.

The bottom line for me is, Igakusei, what you are (assuming honesty of heart) being right now what God intends you to be. In addition God wants you to continue to be honest in heart and to do and believe what He tells you (not what any human thinks). God is the only One who counts. If you please Him then your in. If you displease Him then He doesn't know you and you will burn. It is that simple.

I know I speak heresy according to the SDA Church .org but God does not intend that every human existent is to be an SDA and belong to the SDA Church .org.

God saves those who are truly honest in heart and who continue to be honest enough to grow when He gives them Light (whatever God means by giving them His Light).

Anyone is free to not like my answer but what I speak is the Truth and this Truth cannot be changed. I am sticking too it.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

No there are not valid Biblical reasons to believe women ought not to be the elders/pastors/bishops of the church.

Even atheists who don't agree with the Bible can see what Paul teaches about women in the church-- that they are not to be the elders/pastors/bishops. That is why they consider Paul a misogynist.

Let's look at his language again. I would like to see how you understand his words to mean that women are to be elders/bishops, etc.

Where is the Bible text which teaches clearly that women are to be the pastors/elders of the local congregations?

Quote:

1 Tim. 2:8-15

[8] I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; [9] likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, [10] but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. [11] Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. [12] I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. [13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve; [14] and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. [15] Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

1 Cor. 11:3-16

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. [4] Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, [5] but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as if her head were shaven. [6] For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. [7] For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. [8] For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. [9] Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. [10] That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. [11] Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; [12] for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God. [13] Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? [14] Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, [15] but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. [16] If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God.

1 Cor. 14:33b-38

As in all the churches of the saints, [34] the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. [35] If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

[36] Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? [37] If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. [38] If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

John317 you and I have been over this ground before. This thread is not the place to rehash this.

[Igakusei]

Oh lol, I didn't see that one coming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia#Scientific_explanations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia#Linguistics

And with that, I'm going to bail on this conversation before more of my neurons suicide. Take care!

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

....Thus, Paul is not a misogynist. Because our atheist author of the article cited in the OP believes Paul is a misogynist does not make Paul actually one nor does it mean that he has pegged Paul correctly.

The Bible and I both reject that Paul is a misogynist and the Bible and I also reject that Paul was against women being elders/pastors/bishops of the church.

You actually agree with the atheists, because you also believe that if Paul was against women being elders/pastors/bishops, that fact alone would constitute him a misogynist.

Let readers make up their own mind after they study Paul's writings dealing with the question. See the NT quotes on the previous post--- #502118.

Which is it? In the previous you said that atheists agree with you about Paul and now you say something entirely different.

I am not confused but it appears you are because your words say one thing and next minute you say something else entirely.

[Igakusei]

So miz, if all of those honest people arriving at different conclusions are being led there by God, how do you know what the "truth" you yourself have arrived at is even true?

I have been as honest and fair as possible in my own search for truth, and that search led me outside of organized religion completely. If God led me there but led you to believe that gay couples don't deserve the same privileges as hetero couples, and if he led John to believe that Women shouldn't be spiritual leaders but led you to believe that they should be, who are you to argue with anyone else about anything?

[miz3]

to Miz3: You're so wrong on every point I don't even know where to start. There isn't a single thing in the Bible that is new or innovative and that couldn't have been written by anybody living in those time periods. And no, I've studied Biblical "prophecy" for years and find it highly unconvincing. To tie in to my other conversation on this thread, people can't even agree on the basics of that. What good is prophecy that's so vague nobody can agree what it's even talking about? Especially considering they claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. So, I think I'm done with you on this topic. I asked for examples of the Bible causing societal progress, and all you pointed out is that Biblical understanding changes with time, as does our opinion of various social issues. You've also pointed out a few things that other cultures do that Christian cultures don't. So Christianity doesn't have a complete monopoly on moral bankruptcy, that's good to know. But for every example of non-Christian evil in the world, I'll provide a counter-example of Christians doing the same or worse. You'll run out long before I will, but the point is that it doesn't prove anything. Nothing you have said provides evidence of a causal relationship between the Bible and positive moral progress, especially considering that it's still always the society that changes before the Biblical understanding. If you have any real concrete examples, give me specifics.

I gave you the evidence you asked for but you reject it. Ok that is your prerogative. Your first sentence shows that you do not understand. I am used to having people not understand.

Regardless what I said was the Truth. It is not a novel thing to have people reject the Truth.

Your saying that you are done does nothing to support your position. It only says that your just overwhelmed which you admit in your citation above. Your erroneous view of history and your preconceptions are so shattered that you actually have no response so you say 'I am done with you". And then you recycle your erroneous revisionist view of history. That is not cogent.

[Igakusei]

Wow, you admit that God leads people in different directions, but remain so convinced that you have "THE TRUTH" that you pull something like this?

Why are you so insistent on putting words in my mouth? Seriously? Every time someone decides they're no longer interested in talking to you it's because you destroyed them so convincingly that they're left speechless and overwhelmed? That's a mighty high opinion of yourself you have.

Have you ever considered that just maybe, other people might simply reach different conclusions than you did?

This is why I'm done talking to you, not because your arguments had any impact at all on me (you still haven't answered most of my questions).

[miz3]

So miz, if all of those honest people arriving at different conclusions are being led there by God, how do you know what the "truth" you yourself have arrived at is even true?

I have been as honest and fair as possible in my own search for truth, and that search led me outside of organized religion completely. If God led me there but led you to believe that gay couples don't deserve the same privileges as hetero couples, and if he led John to believe that Women shouldn't be spiritual leaders but led you to believe that they should be, who are you to argue with anyone else about anything?

I trust God that I know the Truth and that I see that He sent it to me. What else can I say? I accept by FAITH and I believe it to be TRUE. The "human reason" cannot understand this. Paul speaks of it when he says, "these things seem foolish to the human mind" (my paraphrase). Paul is exactly correct. I read God's Word the Bible and I am convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that it comes direct from God. Again, what can I say? God does not operate on the basis of "human logic" yet God is indeed the soul and the source of logic and everything He is/does is the epitome of logic. (probably sounds like mumbo jumbo talk to you). Our "human logic" has been perverted by sin and thus it thinks God and the Bible does not add up.

It appears to me that you are frustrated because you cannot figure God out. Because God does not satisfy your "human reasoning power" you reject Him. God is not known by "human reasoning power". If you are waiting to figure God out and understand why such a God has all things the way they are, you will never be satisfied by "human logic".

We humans do not "test" God to see if He is genuine. God tests us to see if we are genuine. If it is not that way then God is not God, nor can He be. God by definition is the One who tests all things and all things must meet His test or they are of no value to Him.

Human logic also by its own definition is so arrogant that it says "I test all things, if they don't add up to me then I will reject them". Given our human track record through out known history I would say that we humans clearly have no basis for you arrogance by demanding that all things meet our "human logic" test. After thousands of years of human history (at minimum) you would think all our attempts at achieving "world peace" and advancing to a "higher level". Human achievement and "human logic" has been a total failure. In fact we are further away from our desired human utopia conceived by "human logic" than ever before. Each day that slips by we only prove the abysmal failure of our efforts. Misery, pain, death pile up higher than ever. I would say "human logic" and "human effort" don't cut it. How much more evidence do we need before we give in and say we failed with no end in sight (it gets further and further away from us). The greater "human knowledge" increases the greater the damage we do to ourselves. The greater the threat of human destruction and our ability to actually experience that destruction. It's not just the number of nuclear bombs any more it is the human ability to deliver even a small number of such things. We haven't even talked about the ability to deliver other mass devices of mass destruction. No I think "human logic" is bankrupt. It clearly cannot be trusted.

God is not beholden to you and/or me that you(we) should figure Him out or by the force of your reason know how everything works. I see in your writings that unless you can have all the answers about God and they make "sense to you" then and only then will you believe. My friend it does not work that way. God has given us ample information about Himself and His doings and He has given us also many things we don't understand and appear to not fit. Either we accept what He decides by FAITH and TRUST Him or we don't. Again it is that simple.

You are not accountable to me. You are only accountable to God.

What counts is God.

[miz3]

Wow, you admit that God leads people in different directions, but remain so convinced that you have "THE TRUTH" that you pull something like this?

Why are you so insistent on putting words in my mouth? Seriously? Every time someone decides they're no longer interested in talking to you it's because you destroyed them so convincingly that they're left speechless and overwhelmed? That's a mighty high opinion of yourself you have.

Have you ever considered that just maybe, other people might simply reach different conclusions than you did?

This is why I'm done talking to you, not because your arguments had any impact at all on me (you still haven't answered most of my questions).

I did destroy your arguments. You may not want to accept that but it is still a FACT.

The high opinion is not of myself. The high opinion is of God, God's Word, and God's Truth.

Of course I know that others reach different conclusions but I believe them to be wrong conclusions.

I have answered your questions, you just didn't like my answers. Or is it you didn't like God's answers to your questions because it did not fit "human logic".

[BibleOnly]

"I did destroy your arguments. You may not want to accept that but it is still a FACT."

And of what value is that ? Is your quest self righteousness, or the Gospel ?

" Or is it you didn't like God's answers to your questions because it did not fit "human logic"."

Amusingly, it's my experience that when cornered on the Bible, SDAs tend to rely on human logic more than most.

[miz3]

"I did destroy your arguments. You may not want to accept that but it is still a FACT."

And of what value is that ? Is your quest self righteousness, or the Gospel ?

" Or is it you didn't like God's answers to your questions because it did not fit "human logic"."

Amusingly, it's my experience that when cornered on the Bible, SDAs tend to rely on human logic more than most.

[olger]

I vote for a shelf life on whining about women's rights. Let's each encourage someone tomorrow and or pray with them.

"The Scriptures are plain on the roles of men and women.."

[fccool]

Quote:

The "human reason" cannot understand this. Paul speaks of it when he says, "these things seem foolish to the human mind" (my paraphrase). Paul is exactly correct. Our "human logic" has been perverted by sin and thus it thinks God and the Bible does not add up.

Hmm. Let me see if I can word it in a way that you can understand.

If you fly planes, you should not try to convince other people sitting next to you that no-one should fly because flying is dangerous.

If you smoke, you should not try to convince other people that smoking is wrong and will kill you.

If you try to argue that "human reason" is perverted that that no-one should trust it, you should at least find an alien to explain it to people Judging by the quality of the your arguments, I don't think you'll get the joke. So, here's a simpler explanation.

You are arguing on a forum, using your logic and reasoning skills, that human logic and reasoning skills should not be trusted.

So, how is it that you expect other people to believe you when you try to make arguments for God? Are you an alien? Perhaps you claim that you are a god, and you don't have "human logic"?

Quote:

It appears to me that you are frustrated because you cannot figure God out. Because God does not satisfy your "human reasoning power" you reject Him. God is not known by "human reasoning power". If you are waiting to figure God out and understand why such a God has all things the way they are, you will never be satisfied by "human logic".

What other reasoning power do we know God by? Alien logic? You keep talking about "human logic" like you are not human. If you claim to believe something... then there's a reason for you to believe it. If you believe something with absolutely no reason to believe it, then you are by definition a crazy person... but even crazy people have their own reasons. They think they see things, and etc.

Are you really claiming to believe without any logical reason processes that go through your mind and filter true beliefs from the untrue ones?

Quote:

We humans do not "test" God to see if He is genuine. God tests us to see if we are genuine. If it is not that way then God is not God, nor can He be. God by definition is the One who tests all things and all things must meet His test or they are of no value to Him.

My neighbor said that God's test for you is to send him a million bucks, or at least sell everything you have and give it to my neighbor. What says you? Will you test God, by testing my neighbor's claims? Please don't use your "human reason" to reject his claims. Don't test God with your "human logic"

Quote:

Human logic also by its own definition is so arrogant that it says "I test all things, if they don't add up to me then I will reject them". Given our human track record through out known history I would say that we humans clearly have no basis for you arrogance by demanding that all things meet our "human logic" test.

Actually, opposite is true. It's quite arrogant to demand to accept things without passing logic tests.

You see, that's the heart of arrogance, which by definition..

an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

Arrogance is to claim that you are right for no apparent reason than having that claim of superiority. That's exactly what you do. Thus, your claim is arrogant

That's why we have logic to begin with ... to separate valid claims from invalid. You use it more than you think, and it keeps you alive, and from being robbed by scam artists, or to solve every-day problems in your life. You just make exceptions. Other people don't have to.

If we can't rely on our logic as a tool for determine valid from invalid reasoning, then we are useless as thinking beings. If you don't believe that we should rely on our logic, or that it's somehow unreliable... prove it. Believe me, sell all you have, and give it to my neighbor... for no logical reason. Just because human logic is "arrogant".

Quote:

After thousands of years of human history (at minimum) you would think all our attempts at achieving "world peace" and advancing to a "higher level".

Surprise! We did achieve greater peace, and we did advance to the "higher level". A mere century ago, your concern #1 would be for putting some food on your table, and to avoid dying of some dreadful disease. Today, in highly civilized societies it's hardly an issue. 1% of economy is agriculture, which feeds 300 million people. Today, 1 farmer can feed a town full of people.

The average life expectancy of the world has nearly doubled over the past century. Are you really saying that we are worse off than century before... that we are less peaceful, that we are less civilized?

Methinks you need the world to be painted in dark colors.

Quote:

Human achievement and "human logic" has been a total failure.

What? Perhaps I'll let you explain first.

Quote:

In fact we are further away from our desired human utopia conceived by "human logic" than ever before. Each day that slips by we only prove the abysmal failure of our efforts. Misery, pain, death pile up higher than ever.

First of all, logic does not concieve utopia. In fact, logic is not interested in what can't be known. It only makes sure that your arguments are valid. In fact, utopias are figment of imagination that's void of logic. They don't think and process possible conflicts and problems with such being. They only focus on ideals... That's what you do. You paint ideals. Human logic does not. It's grounded in reality.

Secondly, I would suggest for you to watch less USA news networks that feed off negative energy, and read more scientific and statistical publication.

We are better off today than in any other period of human history. In spite of all of our problems in US, our level of life is better than those of the wealthiest European kings. We live longer, we have better food, better education, better access to information, better entertainment... you name it.

Quote:

I would say "human logic" and "human effort" don't cut it. How much more evidence do we need before we give in and say we failed with no end in sight (it gets further and further away from us). The greater "human knowledge" increases the greater the damage we do to ourselves.

So, you really believe that our ability to cure more diseases caused us more aggregate harm than good? And you call "human logic" arrogant?

Do a little test in humility. Walk over to a diabetic and heart transplant patient, and tell them that human knowledge did not make their life better, but made it worse.

Quote:

The greater the threat of human destruction and our ability to actually experience that destruction. It's not just the number of nuclear bombs any more it is the human ability to deliver even a small number of such things. We haven't even talked about the ability to deliver other mass devices of mass destruction. No I think "human logic" is bankrupt. It clearly cannot be trusted.

Therefore, I should not trust you, because you are human, and you give reasons(logical arguments) to persuade me why logic can't be trust it.

It's called a paradox.

Also, I think it's fitting to re-iterate the meaning of arrogance here:

an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

Quote:

God is not beholden to you and/or me that you(we) should figure Him out or by the force of your reason know how everything works. I see in your writings that unless you can have all the answers about God and they make "sense to you" then and only then will you believe.

No reasonable person will write and suppose that. God is by definition beyond human knowledge and understanding. The problem is that of arrogance, and your precise claims to do just that... to know and understand God.

Either He can be know, or He can't. Either He can be understood, or He can't. You can't simply whip out "not through human reason" as explanation of your fallacious logic, especially since you are a human and operate within realm of brain function.

Quote:

My friend it does not work that way. God has given us ample information about Himself and His doings and He has given us also many things we don't understand and appear to not fit. Either we accept what He decides by FAITH and TRUST Him or we don't. Again it is that simple. You are not accountable to me. You are only accountable to God.

And, I will conclude with definition of arrogance, once again:

an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

[miz3]

Quote:

The "human reason" cannot understand this. Paul speaks of it when he says, "these things seem foolish to the human mind" (my paraphrase). Paul is exactly correct. Our "human logic" has been perverted by sin and thus it thinks God and the Bible does not add up.

Hmm. Let me see if I can word it in a way that you can understand.

If you fly planes, you should not try to convince other people sitting next to you that no-one should fly because flying is dangerous.

If you smoke, you should not try to convince other people that smoking is wrong and will kill you.

If you try to argue that "human reason" is perverted that that no-one should trust it, you should at least find an alien to explain it to people Judging by the quality of the your arguments, I don't think you'll get the joke. So, here's a simpler explanation.

You are arguing on a forum, using your logic and reasoning skills, that human logic and reasoning skills should not be trusted.

So, how is it that you expect other people to believe you when you try to make arguments for God? Are you an alien? Perhaps you claim that you are a god, and you don't have "human logic"?

Quote:

It appears to me that you are frustrated because you cannot figure God out. Because God does not satisfy your "human reasoning power" you reject Him. God is not known by "human reasoning power". If you are waiting to figure God out and understand why such a God has all things the way they are, you will never be satisfied by "human logic".

What other reasoning power do we know God by? Alien logic? You keep talking about "human logic" like you are not human. If you claim to believe something... then there's a reason for you to believe it. If you believe something with absolutely no reason to believe it, then you are by definition a crazy person... but even crazy people have their own reasons. They think they see things, and etc.

Are you really claiming to believe without any logical reason processes that go through your mind and filter true beliefs from the untrue ones?

Quote:

We humans do not "test" God to see if He is genuine. God tests us to see if we are genuine. If it is not that way then God is not God, nor can He be. God by definition is the One who tests all things and all things must meet His test or they are of no value to Him.

My neighbor said that God's test for you is to send him a million bucks, or at least sell everything you have and give it to my neighbor. What says you? Will you test God, by testing my neighbor's claims? Please don't use your "human reason" to reject his claims. Don't test God with your "human logic"

Quote:

Human logic also by its own definition is so arrogant that it says "I test all things, if they don't add up to me then I will reject them". Given our human track record through out known history I would say that we humans clearly have no basis for you arrogance by demanding that all things meet our "human logic" test.

Actually, opposite is true. It's quite arrogant to demand to accept things without passing logic tests.

You see, that's the heart of arrogance, which by definition..

an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

Arrogance is to claim that you are right for no apparent reason than having that claim of superiority. That's exactly what you do. Thus, your claim is arrogant

That's why we have logic to begin with ... to separate valid claims from invalid. You use it more than you think, and it keeps you alive, and from being robbed by scam artists, or to solve every-day problems in your life. You just make exceptions. Other people don't have to.

If we can't rely on our logic as a tool for determine valid from invalid reasoning, then we are useless as thinking beings. If you don't believe that we should rely on our logic, or that it's somehow unreliable... prove it. Believe me, sell all you have, and give it to my neighbor... for no logical reason. Just because human logic is "arrogant".

Quote:

After thousands of years of human history (at minimum) you would think all our attempts at achieving "world peace" and advancing to a "higher level".

Surprise! We did achieve greater peace, and we did advance to the "higher level". A mere century ago, your concern #1 would be for putting some food on your table, and to avoid dying of some dreadful disease. Today, in highly civilized societies it's hardly an issue. 1% of economy is agriculture, which feeds 300 million people. Today, 1 farmer can feed a town full of people.

The average life expectancy of the world has nearly doubled over the past century. Are you really saying that we are worse off than century before... that we are less peaceful, that we are less civilized?

Methinks you need the world to be painted in dark colors.

Quote:

Human achievement and "human logic" has been a total failure.

What? Perhaps I'll let you explain first.

Quote:

In fact we are further away from our desired human utopia conceived by "human logic" than ever before. Each day that slips by we only prove the abysmal failure of our efforts. Misery, pain, death pile up higher than ever.

First of all, logic does not concieve utopia. In fact, logic is not interested in what can't be known. It only makes sure that your arguments are valid. In fact, utopias are figment of imagination that's void of logic. They don't think and process possible conflicts and problems with such being. They only focus on ideals... That's what you do. You paint ideals. Human logic does not. It's grounded in reality.

Secondly, I would suggest for you to watch less USA news networks that feed off negative energy, and read more scientific and statistical publication.

We are better off today than in any other period of human history. In spite of all of our problems in US, our level of life is better than those of the wealthiest European kings. We live longer, we have better food, better education, better access to information, better entertainment... you name it.

Quote:

I would say "human logic" and "human effort" don't cut it. How much more evidence do we need before we give in and say we failed with no end in sight (it gets further and further away from us). The greater "human knowledge" increases the greater the damage we do to ourselves.

So, you really believe that our ability to cure more diseases caused us more aggregate harm than good? And you call "human logic" arrogant?

Do a little test in humility. Walk over to a diabetic and heart transplant patient, and tell them that human knowledge did not make their life better, but made it worse.

Quote:

The greater the threat of human destruction and our ability to actually experience that destruction. It's not just the number of nuclear bombs any more it is the human ability to deliver even a small number of such things. We haven't even talked about the ability to deliver other mass devices of mass destruction. No I think "human logic" is bankrupt. It clearly cannot be trusted.

Therefore, I should not trust you, because you are human, and you give reasons(logical arguments) to persuade me why logic can't be trust it.

It's called a paradox.

Also, I think it's fitting to re-iterate the meaning of arrogance here:

an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

Quote:

God is not beholden to you and/or me that you(we) should figure Him out or by the force of your reason know how everything works. I see in your writings that unless you can have all the answers about God and they make "sense to you" then and only then will you believe.

No reasonable person will write and suppose that. God is by definition beyond human knowledge and understanding. The problem is that of arrogance, and your precise claims to do just that... to know and understand God.

Either He can be know, or He can't. Either He can be understood, or He can't. You can't simply whip out "not through human reason" as explanation of your fallacious logic, especially since you are a human and operate within realm of brain function.

Quote:

My friend it does not work that way. God has given us ample information about Himself and His doings and He has given us also many things we don't understand and appear to not fit. Either we accept what He decides by FAITH and TRUST Him or we don't. Again it is that simple. You are not accountable to me. You are only accountable to God.

And, I will conclude with definition of arrogance, once again:

an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

1. I am not using human reasoning. I am using the Bible and what the Bible says about human reasoning. There is a difference and you seem to have missed it.

2. Like you all humans believe something. That something starts from an "assumption". That "assumption" is based on something in the "human experience".

In my case it is based on a "real experience with the God of Heaven and His Word, the Bible.

You again demonstrate your lack of understanding because what you write is exactly what Paul in the Bible said you would do. That is you think the Word of God and from God is "foolish" and makes no "logical sense". Thus, you spin your web which you believe, based on your erroneous assumptions", is correct, when in FACT your "logic" is not correct.

Your basic "assumption" is based on human thinking my basic "assumption" is based on the Living, the True, the Biblical God who created everything.

3. I filter "true from false" based on what God says in His Word the Bible.

You rely on yourself to filter "true from false". Thus, you have human authority determining what is true and what is false. Since any two humans can/do have different views of what is true and what is false, how can one know which is actually correct and/or better.

You don't!

Why is your "morality" better than anyone else's morality? It is not. Therefore when one human's morality thinks the world is better off without another human being who is to say that it is not true. Each has their own logic that makes sense to them. Who is to say that such logic is wrong since all humans are/should be equal. That is unless you, yourself, think you, fccool, have a better logic than all other humans.

Thus, it comes down who will arbitrate between the "logic" of any number of humans?

No one is qualified. Thus, it depends on who is stronger whose logic gets to be the rule. Thus, the strong will and do always kill/misuse the weak in order to satisfy their superior view of logic. That is exactly why the World throughout history has never ever been a "peaceful" place and so-called "world peace" can never ever be achieved.

Human "logic" is bankrupt. It is time to face this FACT.

4. I will not give your neighbor a million dollars because the Bible does not say that is what I am to do.

No need to think this out. Just obey the Word.

5. I am not asking you to follow me. NO, NO, NO, I telling you that to follow God and His Word is what you are to do. That is completely different.

You need to ask God directly what is Truth. That is what I am telling you. Test all things I tell you by what God says. I am not asking you to believe as I do just because I say so. NO, NO, NO, that would never ever do. You must test all things by what God and the Bible says.

The only Rule of what is Right/Correct is God and His Word the Bible. I am not the Rule. Thus, your assertions that I am saying so are wrong on their face. I never ever claimed to be the Rule, thus, you are arguing against a false assertion.

6. Most humans around the world would disagree with you "peace" assessment. Many think the World is in greater danger and that "poverty" is more rampant then ever. You are looking at the Western Culture (as mainly seen in the US) to make your assertions. The rest of the World is not like that.

I would assert to you that the US is/has been different because it has followed the Protestant Christian Biblical Culture as found in the Bible.

However the US has been steadily denying its connection to God and the Biblical Principles and thus is currently on a downward spiral.

7. You need help with history. The reason the US achieved all these great advances/riches is because the US was a Christian Nation. Even the money says, "in God we trust". Thus, God has enriched and blessed this country (the US).

We have only gone downward when the US denied its Godly beginnings and its Godly character. This is just the FACT. You seem to miss this vital FACT.

When we take the Ten Commandments and Prayer to God out of our schools notice the downward spiral of knowledge, peace, etc. in our schools. Our schools are no longer what they once were. They are no longer sure safe places for our most vulnerable humans among us.

The evidence is stunning.

8. I am not one living in a paradox. It appears from your words that you are confused.

9. It is not I that am arrogant. You are the one defining what is "reasonable" when you state that "no reasonable persons would .....

Who are you to define what is and what is not reasonable. I would call that the height of arrogance.

10. I did not nor have I ever asked you and/or anyone else to trust me or my words.

I have however asked you and all others to TRUST God and His Word the Bible.

Test it my friend. I challenge you to test it. Truly test it and see if it is true by going to God and His Word the Bible. Not just sloppy on the surface investigation but direct and authentic testing.

[BibleOnly]

Test it my friend. I challenge you to test it. Truly test it and see if it is true by going to God and His Word the Bible. Not just sloppy on the surface investigation but direct and authentic testing.

I disagree with much of your assessment of the history of the US, but, more important, I struggle to keep track of people here. When you say 'direct and authentic testing', do you mean asking God for the Holy Spirit and receiving the evidence of speaking in tongues ?

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: miz3

....Next I see this author as being wrong about Paul. I know Paul looks like a misogynist but in my view Paul is not. I think most people, including most Christians, think Paul is a misogynist and they also think that because Paul was that God actually approves of misogyny.

But what is misogyny? Isn't it hatred of women?

What evidence is there that Paul hated women?

An atheist might believe Paul must have been a misogynist because he said that women are not to be the teachers of men and should not be the Church pastors/elders.

But does that make Paul, or others who agree with Paul, a misogynist?

Are all the women who agree with Paul misogynists?

Aren't there valid biblical reasons for people to believe women ought not to be the elders/pastors/bishops of the church?

The writer of that article is dead right! Does not matter if he is an atheist or not. He is probably and atheist becauwe of the problem most people have, he can't seperate the words of Jesus from the words of Paul--as do the majority of those who call themselves Christian!

NEVER did Jesus say or teach anything as did Paul in regards to this issue. This is why the religion that Paul invented (Christian) is so down right evil--as it appears to be the truth, but isn't. And NO, there are NO valid truthful reasons for anyone to believe women should not be an equit to a man! Gen. 3:15 is NOT about Eve, it's about the Holy Spirit, the same Woman as found in Rev. 12! It is the Holy Spirit's seed (those truely born again) who battle Satan's fiction as found in Rev. 12:17.

Isn't it time to tell the real truth about this whole issue? Let's call a spade a spade! Making up stories to protect Paul is a dangerious thing to do.

[BibleOnly]

I agree. That's why the 12 apostles were half men and half women.

No part of the Bible says that women are less than men. It says they are different, which science now confirms is far deeper than just differences of plumbing.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Test it my friend. I challenge you to test it. Truly test it and see if it is true by going to God and His Word the Bible. Not just sloppy on the surface investigation but direct and authentic testing.

I disagree with much of your assessment of the history of the US, but, more important, I struggle to keep track of people here. When you say 'direct and authentic testing', do you mean asking God for the Holy Spirit and receiving the evidence of speaking in tongues ?

1. Your assessment of US History would be wrong. For the last forty years at least there has been some very sloppy historical study and thus there has been a lot of "revisionist" history. We need some honest study of history that seeks the Truth instead of the last forty years which has sought to promote a point of view rather than find the Truth.

2. When I say "direct and authentic testing" I am talking about finding God honestly and without bias to see if God is indeed Truthful. God has said in John chapter One that He will give us "the Light that Lights every one" who will exist in the whole world.

Under no circumstances whatsoever do I mean asking God to be able to speak in tongues.

Speaking in tongues as stated in the Bible has been perverted by many who intend to speak for God when in FACT they do NOT SPEAK FOR GOD in anyway, shape, or form.

God has infinite ways to communicate with humans. God always, but always, without exception speaks to humans in clear and simple ways and content.

The use of "tongues" as we see today is nothing more than chaotic gibberish. It serves no purpose in advancing the Word and the Truth of God.

Today's use of tongues is used to advance the human entity and not to advance the Word and Truth of God.

[phkrause]

Under no circumstances whatsoever do I mean asking God to be able to speak in tongues.

Speaking in tongues as stated in the Bible has been perverted by many who intend to speak for God when in FACT they do NOT SPEAK FOR GOD in anyway, shape, or form.

God has infinite ways to communicate with humans. God always, but always, without exception speaks to humans in clear and simple ways and content.

The use of "tongues" as we see today is nothing more than chaotic gibberish. It serves no purpose in advancing the Word and the Truth of God.

Today's use of tongues is used to advance the human entity and not to advance the Word and Truth of God.

I couldn't agree more with you on this.

[BibleOnly]

1 - US history has always been revisionist, starting with the 'Pilgrim' creation myth that has locals showing Indians a great feast, when the truth is, disease their forebears had brought with them had wiped out local populations and it was the remaining Indians who taught them how to plant corn, etc.

2 - So, by 'testing', you mean blind faith ? The bible says:

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

By what proof do you believe we know when we have the Spirit ? Acts 8 shows that it's possible for a baptised believer to know they don't have the Spirit.

"God has infinite ways to communicate with humans. God always, but always, without exception speaks to humans in clear and simple ways and content. "

I agree. That is why the Bible is clear, why Jesus said twice that believers would speak in tongues, and why Paul reminds us that tongues is for speaking to God, for no man understands, and will remain something that all Christians receive as 'the manifestation of the Spirit', until we see Jesus face to face.

"The use of "tongues" as we see today is nothing more than chaotic gibberish. It serves no purpose in advancing the Word and the Truth of God. "

It never did serve that purpose. 'The foolishness of preaching' does that, tongues gives us the ability to 'pray in the Spirit', and is 'the manifestation of the Spirit', but it's not a tool for preaching, it never has been. Even in Acts 2, where some tongues were understood, the people asked what it meant, and Peter had to explain that what they saw and heard ( people speaking in tongues ) was what happens when people receive the Spirit.

"Today's use of tongues is used to advance the human entity and not to advance the Word and Truth of God."

I am not sure how God giving people a prayer language and a sign of His presence 'advanced the human entity'. I am also confused as to what you think is the way to 'test' the Bible, if you don't expect God to ever do anything in a pre ordained and reliable, repeatable manner.

[Windsor]

"to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues."

Greater than the ability to speak in tongues (languages) is the ability to distinguish between spirits. Most people here seem to know from what spirit the so-called gibberish of speaking in tongues (languages) comes from. Even closely associated with speaking in languages is the ability to interpret. Who interprets the non English language you speak, BibleOnly?

[miz3]

The writer of that article is dead right! Does not matter if he is an atheist or not. He is probably and atheist becauwe of the problem most people have, he can't seperate the words of Jesus from the words of Paul--as do the majority of those who call themselves Christian!

NEVER did Jesus say or teach anything as did Paul in regards to this issue. This is why the religion that Paul invented (Christian) is so down right evil--as it appears to be the truth, but isn't. And NO, there are NO valid truthful reasons for anyone to believe women should not be an equit to a man! Gen. 3:15 is NOT about Eve, it's about the Holy Spirit, the same Woman as found in Rev. 12! It is the Holy Spirit's seed (those truely born again) who battle Satan's fiction as found in Rev. 12:17.

Isn't it time to tell the real truth about this whole issue? Let's call a spade a spade! Making up stories to protect Paul is a dangerious thing to do.

[miz3]

1 - US history has always been revisionist, starting with the 'Pilgrim' creation myth that has locals showing Indians a great feast, when the truth is, disease their forebears had brought with them had wiped out local populations and it was the remaining Indians who taught them how to plant corn, etc.

2 - So, by 'testing', you mean blind faith ? The bible says:

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

By what proof do you believe we know when we have the Spirit ? Acts 8 shows that it's possible for a baptised believer to know they don't have the Spirit.

"God has infinite ways to communicate with humans. God always, but always, without exception speaks to humans in clear and simple ways and content. "

I agree. That is why the Bible is clear, why Jesus said twice that believers would speak in tongues, and why Paul reminds us that tongues is for speaking to God, for no man understands, and will remain something that all Christians receive as 'the manifestation of the Spirit', until we see Jesus face to face.

"The use of "tongues" as we see today is nothing more than chaotic gibberish. It serves no purpose in advancing the Word and the Truth of God. "

It never did serve that purpose. 'The foolishness of preaching' does that, tongues gives us the ability to 'pray in the Spirit', and is 'the manifestation of the Spirit', but it's not a tool for preaching, it never has been. Even in Acts 2, where some tongues were understood, the people asked what it meant, and Peter had to explain that what they saw and heard ( people speaking in tongues ) was what happens when people receive the Spirit.

"Today's use of tongues is used to advance the human entity and not to advance the Word and Truth of God."

I am not sure how God giving people a prayer language and a sign of His presence 'advanced the human entity'. I am also confused as to what you think is the way to 'test' the Bible, if you don't expect God to ever do anything in a pre ordained and reliable, repeatable manner.

1. I never ever said nor have I ever implied that we are using "blind faith".

Such is your interpretation of what I said and you would be wrong about such an interpretation.

God gives us evidences of the genuineness of His dwelling within us. However such evidences of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are not limited to "tongues".

Second, "tongues" is never, ever, chaotic gibberish, which is what you are saying is the outcome of such a "gift". Therefore we can do nothing else but conclude that such chaotic gibberish is NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT, and it just might actually be a different and/or evil spirit.

You have boxed into this corner of conclusion.

2. 1John 4:13 is under no circumstances whatsoever talking about, either by implication, inference, and/or direct means anything whatsoever concerning "talking in tongues (chaotic gibberish)".

You are stretching the text into the realm of human thinking and interpretation and not in the Realm of God's FACT.

3. If you insist on using the "chaotic gibberish" as a legitimate communication with God and yourself then please do it in your closet because such "chaotic gibberish" has no value except between you and God.

Such "tongues" have no value to the general public because we do not know what you are saying,

4. Unless you have a "legitimate interpreter" who has the confidence of ALL THE PEOPLE then your talking in tongues in public has zero value. If the interpreter has no credibility then you are still of no value to God.

Thus, I would never, ever brag about "speaking in tongues" as an evidence that I am "in the Spirit". Other humans do not see your evidence because we do not understand your "chaotic gibberish".

Now if you want to puff (glory to you and not God)yourself up as "in the spirit" and "communicating with God" then we know it is false because you do it in public.

If you do such things in PRIVATE then the public is not burdened with your specialness nor can they accuse you of self-glory. Then you can give God the Glory in your closet.

[BibleOnly]

"to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues."

Greater than the ability to speak in tongues (languages) is the ability to distinguish between spirits. Most people here seem to know from what spirit the so-called gibberish of speaking in tongues (languages) comes from. Even closely associated with speaking in languages is the ability to interpret. Who interprets the non English language you speak, BibleOnly?

I guess you've not followed the other threads on this.

1 - 1 Cor 12 only says that some people have some gifts, if only some Christians have faith, wisdom or discernment. Is this your claim ?

2 - 1 Cor 12-14 is talking about the use of gifts in a meeting, it asks 'DO all speak in tongues', not 'CAN all speak in tongues'. The answer to this, in a well run gathering, is no. The answer to the second question, in 1 Cor 14, is yes. All can speak in tongues, all can interpret, all can prophecy

3 - The answer is in the Bible. Anyone who speaks in tongues can also use the gift of interpretation. If no-one is confident to use this gift, then the tongues speaker should use the gift to speak to who ? Unsaved people ? No, Paul says to speak to himself and to God. 1 Cor 14:2 explains, only God understands, but God gives the gift of interpretation in the church, so that God can inspire an interpretation of the words spoken.

So, in my church, we all speak in tongues as 'prayer in the Spirit' in our own lives, and every meeting, 2-3 speak in tongues and someone else interprets, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Are you saying the church you attend does not obey these scriptures ?

[BibleOnly]

God gives us evidences of the genuineness of His dwelling within us. However such evidences of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are not limited to "tongues".

Second, "tongues" is never, ever, chaotic gibberish, which is what you are saying is the outcome of such a "gift". Therefore we can do nothing else but conclude that such chaotic gibberish is NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT, and it just might actually be a different and/or evil spirit.

You have boxed into this corner of conclusion.

2. 1John 4:13 is under no circumstances whatsoever talking about, either by implication, inference, and/or direct means anything whatsoever concerning "talking in tongues (chaotic gibberish)".

You are stretching the text into the realm of human thinking and interpretation and not in the Realm of God's FACT.

3. If you insist on using the "chaotic gibberish" as a legitimate communication with God and yourself then please do it in your closet because such "chaotic gibberish" has no value except between you and God.

Such "tongues" have no value to the general public because we do not know what you are saying,

4. Unless you have a "legitimate interpreter" who has the confidence of ALL THE PEOPLE then your talking in tongues in public has zero value. If the interpreter has no credibility then you are still of no value to God.

Thus, I would never, ever brag about "speaking in tongues" as an evidence that I am "in the Spirit". Other humans do not see your evidence because we do not understand your "chaotic gibberish".

Now if you want to puff (glory to you and not God)yourself up as "in the spirit" and "communicating with God" then we know it is false because you do it in public.

If you do such things in PRIVATE then the public is not burdened with your specialness nor can they accuse you of self-glory. Then you can give God the Glory in your closet.

How does any of this gel with 1 Cor 14 ?