When does a person become an overcomer?

[joeb]

On another thread the issue came up as to when a Christian becomes an overcomer. How do you see this? Is becoming an "overcomer" the work of a lifetime, or does one become an overcomer when born again?

I believe it is the latter. Here's my scriptural and SOP support for why I believe this to be so.

Quote:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;

Here is the first clue that we will come to a place of opposition to the prince of this world.

Quote:

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Here we are promised that God will change us so that we will be in harmony with His law and character. This also means total opposition to the principles of Satan's kingdom.

Ellen White tells us this enmity must be implanted by Christ in Steps to Christ pp 26,27:

Quote:

Just here is a point on which many may err, and hence they fail of receiving the help that Christ desires to give them. They think that they cannot come to Christ unless they first repent, and that repentance prepares for the forgiveness of their sins. It is true that repentance does precede the forgiveness of sins; for it is only the broken and contrite heart that will feel the need of a Saviour. But must the sinner wait till he has repented before he can come to Jesus? Is repentance to be made an obstacle between the sinner and the Saviour?

The Bible does not teach that the sinner must repent before he can heed the invitation of Christ, "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28. It is the virtue that goes forth from Christ, that leads to genuine repentance. Peter made the matter clear in his statement to the Israelites when he said, "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31. We can no more repent without the Spirit of Christ to awaken the conscience than we can be pardoned without Christ. { 26.2}

Christ is the source of every right impulse. He is the only one that can implant in the heart enmity against sin. Every desire for truth and purity, every conviction of our own sinfulness, is an evidence that His Spirit is moving upon our hearts.

Jesus has said, "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32. Christ must be revealed to the sinner as the Saviour dying for the sins of the world; and as we behold the Lamb of

27

God upon the cross of Calvary, the mystery of redemption begins to unfold to our minds and the goodness of God leads us to repentance. In dying for sinners, Christ manifested a love that is incomprehensible; and as the sinner beholds this love, it softens the heart, impresses the mind, and inspires contrition in the soul.

Quote:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Here Jesus tells us when this change, that places us in opposition to, and at enmity with, Satan, occurs.

But, what about the Christian life afterwards? Isn't it supposed to be a life of spiritual growth? Isn't that where the "overcoming" takes place?

Paul says, As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Col 2:7. To walk in Christ is to live the life Christ would have us to live. A life of victory over sin. How do we do that? The same way we came to Jesus in the first place: by faith and surrender of self.

This may be heresy to some but I see sanctification as justification set in motion. It is the constant surrender of self to God. As Paul said of himself, I die daily. Is that not what happens at the point of justification? The dying to self?

So when is it that we overcome? When we surrender our lives to Christ for Jesus says, These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Is this not the essence of righteousness by faith?

[Gibs]

I believe it is when we are truly baptised of the Holy Spirit. This is what baptism by water symbolized, the death of the old man of the flesh to rise back up from that death to a new man of the Spirit of Christ within and living then no more by the dictates of the old nature but by the new imparted Divine Nature.

First we are drawn to come to Jesus Christ,

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We are drwn to the throne of grace at Jesus feet and repent, a change of heart and sorrow for our past ways. Then a full and total surrender to do His will must take place and our will given to do nothing but His will and then He can come and dwell within as we have invited Him in.

Then walk by His guiding Spirit doing only His will and you are an overcomer of all your old shortcomings and the world in all it's attractions that lead away from His Way.

It is then like Paul states, if we truly died of the old man,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And Paul reveals the secret, he says mystery,

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Gibs,

Isn't what you describe the new birth experience, or in other words, conversion?

[12tribes]

To be an over comer we first need to put on the armour

Ephesians 6:13

(13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

The marginal reading for done all is overcome all. It is God who declares us commandment keepers. We overcome by surrender.

Romans 6:13

(13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:16

(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

[Gibs]

joeb,

Yes a full and complete conversion of the death of the old self to a new life lived by the indwelling Divine Nature. And we know when this conversion is not just a surface thing as the true will bear the fruit we desire and need and must have, overcoming, a coveted overcomer and one of His precious Jewels.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Gibs, sure, one truely born of God (Holy Spirit) will be changed, but my question is this: Who really has (today) been born of God and therefore sealed and can't sin again? (See 1John 3:6-10)

[12tribes]

Quote:

Gibs, sure, one truely born of God (Holy Spirit) will be changed, but my question is this: Who really has (today) been born of God and therefore sealed and can't sin again? (See 1John 3:6-10)

Where in the Bible does it say that someone sealed can't sin?

[John317]

This is the correct way to translate 1 John 3: 1-10:

Quote:

See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. [2] Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. [3] And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

[4] Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. [5] You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. [6] No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. [7] Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righ teousness is righteous, as he is righ teous. [8] Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. [9] No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. [10] By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)

Dr. Rich, if you look in your favorite edition of the (Key Word Study Bible) New American Standard, you will notice that it tells you the verb in verse 9 is "present infinitive." The correct way to translate the present infinitive is exactly as you see it translated by the English Standard Version. It doesn't mean that "he cannot ever commit sin." It means that the person "cannot go on sinning."

The difference is that the person who is truly born of the Spirit will immediately repent of His sin and make a sincere confession. The Holy Spirit will influence a truly born-again person to practice what is found in 1 John 1-5 and 1 John 2: 1-6.

[joeb]

To be an over comer we first need to put on the armour

Ephesians 6:13

(13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

The marginal reading for done all is overcome all. It is God who declares us commandment keepers. We overcome by surrender.

Romans 6:13

(13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:16

(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

I think you're looking at this from the end point. Yes, we must remain overcomers, but when do we first become overcomers? Colossians 2:7 speaks to this.

Christ in us, the hope of glory. Is that only at the end, or is it true from the beginning of our walk with Him too? Is it more important to become attached to the vine(Christ) or remain attached? Are not both equally important? And, are we any less an overcomer when first attached to the vine than after we have remained attached for an extended period of time?

[joeb]

Quote:

Do you ask, "How am I to abide in Christ?" In the same way as you received Him at first. "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in Him." "The just shall live by faith." Colossians 2:6; Hebrews 10:38. You gave yourself to God, to be His wholly, to serve and obey Him, and you took Christ as your Saviour. You could not yourself atone for your sins or change your heart; but having given

70

yourself to God, you believe that He for Christ's sake did all this for you. By faith you became Christ's, and by faith you are to grow up in Him--by giving and taking. You are to give all,--your heart, your will, your service,--give yourself to Him to obey all His requirements; and you must take all,--Christ, the fullness of all blessing, to abide in your heart, to be your strength, your righteousness, your everlasting helper,--to give you power to obey. Steps to Christ pp69,70

Look at the clear implications of what is said here. We give ourselves, wholly, to God at conversion to serve and obey Him. How are we to live for God? The same way. So how is the newly converted Christian any less an overcomer than the person who has spent years trusting in Christ and living wholly for Him? Does the old-timer Christian need Christ any less than the newborn Christian?

[cheddar]

There is only one group of people who become overcomers (having perfect characters) and that group is the 144K.

This happens at the very end of the world when the Holy Spirit is poured out in a large measure. It's the power of the Holy Spirit that does this not the power of man's will or his desire to do good.

Unfortunately for this group it will probably take the loss of their jobs, homes, money, loved ones and ony other idols that they cling to to drive them to this point. Persecution is the fire that will purify God's people.

[joeb]

There is only one group of people who become overcomers (having perfect characters) and that group is the 144K.

This happens at the very end of the world when the Holy Spirit is poured out in a large measure. It's the power of the Holy Spirit that does this not the power of man's will or his desire to do good.

Unfortunately for this group it will probably take the loss of their jobs, homes, money, loved ones and ony other idols that they cling to to drive them to this point. Persecution is the fire that will purify God's people.

[12tribes]

Quote:

I think you're looking at this from the end point. Yes, we must remain overcomers, but when do we first become overcomers? Colossians 2:7 speaks to this.

Christ in us, the hope of glory. Is that only at the end, or is it true from the beginning of our walk with Him too? Is it more important to become attached to the vine(Christ) or remain attached? Are not both equally important? And, are we any less an overcomer when first attached to the vine than after we have remained attached for an extended period of time?

Romans 6:13

(13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:16

(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

[joeb]

Quote:

I think you're looking at this from the end point. Yes, we must remain overcomers, but when do we first become overcomers? Colossians 2:7 speaks to this.

Christ in us, the hope of glory. Is that only at the end, or is it true from the beginning of our walk with Him too? Is it more important to become attached to the vine(Christ) or remain attached? Are not both equally important? And, are we any less an overcomer when first attached to the vine than after we have remained attached for an extended period of time?

Romans 6:13

(13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:16

(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Is this not the conversion experience? Yielding ourselves to God to obey Him, to follow Him wherever He leads?

I'd appreciate it if you would plainly state your position in your own words.

[Dr. Rich]

It's not about being a "Christian" or even an "Adventist". It's about overcoming sin and that is only done when one practices real truth for it is only thru truth that one can be set free from sin. (John 3:21)

Everyone who believes in a lie and practices a lie will be thrown in the lake of fire. (Rev. 21:8,27 and 22:15)

Sanctification is the same thing as truely being born again by the Holy Spirit. So far, I have NEVER ever seen anyone who has had this happen to them as the ones that were shown to me that said they had been born again clearly lied because they still practiced a lie and do not know the real truth about how salvation works, nor do the fully understand end time prophecy.

But the time is shortly coming when the 144k will fully overcome sin, know the real truth a practice this truth and those will then be sealed by God (the coming like a thief before the time of trouble and is NOT the same event as the coming in the clouds), and will NEVER sin again.

[12tribes]

Is this not the conversion experience? Yielding ourselves to God to obey Him, to follow Him wherever He leads?

I'd appreciate it if you would plainly state your position in your own words.

When we are tempted the only way we can overcome is to surrender to Him. We become overcomers by surrender.

[cheddar]

Your position says that only the 144k will make it to heaven for the "overcometh" in context here refers to all who make it to heaven.

You are correct in that regard...but the saved of the past while overcomers never overcame all sin.

The 144K overcome all sin and are 'without fault' before God.

Martin Luther would be an example of an overcomer for his time but he still had some character defects.

[phkrause]

I also like this from 1 John 5:4 because everything which has God as its Father overcomes the world. And this is what victoriously overcomes the world: our trust.

[John317]

Everyone who believes in a lie and practices a lie will be thrown in the lake of fire. (Rev. 21:8,27 and 22:15)

Don't you believe and teach lies when you tell people that Paul was a liar and that it was Satan, and NOT the Holy Spirit, who fell in "a tongue" on the disciples on the Day of Pentecost?

I'm sure you don't realize how dangerous that position is, and I sincerely pray that you will see it before it is too late.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Sanctification is the same thing as truely being born again by the Holy Spirit.

Sanctificaton is viewed in two different ways in Scripture: it is both a life-long process and something God does in an instant at the moment that a person is justified.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

So far, I have NEVER ever seen anyone who has had this happen to them

Are you saying that no one has ever been born again by the Holy Spirit?

You seem clearly to be conceding that you yourself have never been born again.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

as the ones that were shown to me that said they had been born again clearly lied because they still practiced a lie and do not know the real truth about how salvation works, nor do the fully understand end time prophecy.

You say this because you misinterpret 1 John 3: 9 and because you mistakenly believe that those who are born again never commit sin and have a perfect theology. The Scriptures don't teach this.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

But the time is shortly coming when the 144k will fully overcome sin, know the real truth a practice this truth and those will then be sealed by God (the coming like a thief before the time of trouble and is NOT the same event as the coming in the clouds), and will NEVER sin again.

We should all strive to have the characterstics of the 144k and to be among them.

[John317]

Amen!

[John317]

Good post, joeb.

Rev. 21:7

The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

There are also these wonderful promises by Christ to the overcomers:

1 John 5:4,5:

For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 3:5-9

You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. [6] No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. [7] Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righ teousness is righteous, as he is righ teous. [8] Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. [9] No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Rev. 2:26

The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,

Rev. 2:11

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.'

Rev. 3:5

The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Rev. 3:12

The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.

Rev. 3:21

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

[olger]

I like this thread.

[BibleOnly]

I believe it is when we are truly baptised of the Holy Spirit.

What do you mean by this ?

[Dr. Rich]

John317, You have your opinion which I sincerely believe are false and I have mine. I don't just believe that Paul was a false apostle, I know it! If you choose to follow his words, then so be it as it's no skin off my nose.

But that is NOT the foundational problem John317. Jesus was clear as a bell that one must obey all of the ten commandments and follow HIS WORDS, not the words from anyone else! When one does this, they have then have overcome sin and only then can the Holy Spirit dwell within them. The Holy Spirit simply can't dwell in anyone who is a sinner-period. That would make the words of Jesus a lie when He said a house divided will fall.

It's a true statment that the words of Paul have caused confusion and have scattered rather than becoming one with God as Jesus said the true worshipers of God would be in John 17.

Dan Jackson, the NAD Adventist president, in the December's Adventist World magazine said that GOD said everyone who wants to be in heaven will be there. John317, that's clearly blasphemy! What dosen't he understand about Matthew 7:21-23 and 25:1-13? Where do you suppose he got this false teaching?--from the words of Paul, that's where!

[Dr. Rich]

Justification is when one truly repents and asks for foregivness and seeks the real truth, that being the words of Jesus and His only.

Sanctification is ONLY for thoe who have truely overcome sin and have been sealed by God, thereby becoming a true brother or sister of Jesus Christ--yes, they are IN the family of God and will NEVER sin again!

Yes, the New Testament has a couple of different views on being born again--aka sanctification BUT the words of Jesus only have ONE view and that is the one that I choose to believe. Truth is singular and absolute!

No, I have not been born again by the Holy Spirit and neither have you or anyone else that I know of. However as Cheddar correctly pointed out, the 144,000 will be the FIRST fruits and the first who will become sanctified (therefore truely being Saints) and they will NEVER sin again as they are totally perfect and without believing any lies.

Anyone who says that they have now been born again by the Holy Spirit (as did Paul) are liars. (1Jn.2:4)