Adam and Eve

[BibleOnly]

One thing many SDAs have told me, is that Adam and Eve had the 10 commandments. Does the SDA officially believe this ? Do many SDA 'unofficially' believe this ? I know the logic chain ( although it is flawed ), but, assuming it was true ( and it's not ), on what basis do we believe that the Bible leaves out important information and requires us to deduce it for ourselves ? Or is it just something a few people believe, given the lack of unity of belief in the SDA over anything bar Saturday ?

[ClubV12]

Strictly speaking the ten commandments didn't even exist in the time of Adam and Eve. I have no doubt they had the concept of the law in their heart and mind, they didn't NEED it written down, they knew it by "heart".

The Jew's coming out of 400 years of slavery in Egypt had all but lost sight of what it means to follow God. They needed to be reminded, to see it written down. There were far removed from the concept of following God.

Adam had a clear view of what it means, he literally walked with God, knew Him personally. His character and mind were not dimmed from hundreds or thousands of years of a sinful life. He KNEW in every respect the requirements of the "law", obey and live, disobey and die. Consider the Sabbath, Adam was certainly familiar with it, that special day he and Eve communed especially with God in the garden. He didn't need to see it written down, he spoke directly, face to face with God and His angels concerning this and many other aspects of the "law". The law is actually another way of saying, how to live your life, good and bad choices, what brings sorrow and death, what brings life and happiness.

[ClubV12]

Who was more guilty of sin in the garden of Eden, Eve or Adam?

Eve was deceived, she set herself up to believe a lie, she placed herself in a position where she was told not to be, a certain tree in the middle of the garden. She was pretty much doomed to failure before the evil doer even spoke. She believed the lie, "Thou shalt not surely die", and ate of the fruit.

Adam, on the other hand recognized immediately the consequences of Eve's action, death. He KNEW, he wasn't deceived, he made a decision to eat with full knowledge of what it meant, rejection of the "law" of God.

[BibleOnly]

Strictly speaking the ten commandments didn't even exist in the time of Adam and Eve. I have no doubt they had the concept of the law in their heart and mind, they didn't NEED it written down, they knew it by "heart".

[BibleOnly]

Who was more guilty of sin in the garden of Eden, Eve or Adam?

Eve was deceived, she set herself up to believe a lie, she placed herself in a position where she was told not to be, a certain tree in the middle of the garden. She was pretty much doomed to failure before the evil doer even spoke. She believed the lie, "Thou shalt not surely die", and ate of the fruit.

Adam, on the other hand recognized immediately the consequences of Eve's action, death. He KNEW, he wasn't deceived, he made a decision to eat with full knowledge of what it meant, rejection of the "law" of God.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

There is no indication here that Adam 'knew' any better than Eve. The very concept of 'more guilty' leads back to legalism. Do you think God thinks about unsaved people in terms of who is 'more' guilty ? Do you think hell has levels based on the amount of guilt ?

[ClubV12]

Make whatever you want of the story of Adam and Eve, why each of them ate when they did and why. I offered my take on the story, thats all.

In the end, when we stand before the bar of God, the only question will be, guilty or not guilty. Your in or your out, there is no half way. BUT, in THIS life God does indeed judge based on more or less guilt. We have MANY examples of this being the case in the bible. God tolerates sin only up to a certain point, then His judgment will come. Sodom's cup of iniquity was full, judgment followed. Sodom didn't get that way overnight, it took time. Noah worked on the Ark for 120 years, the cup of iniquity for the world not yet full. Ninevah repented and was spared immediate destruction. Adam and Eve faced IMMEDIATE consequences for their sin, removal from the garden of Eden and a life certainly more difficult than they had before. The ultimate fate, death, would be years away, but certain.

How on earth could Adam NOT have known of the Sabbath? He literally learned from, spoke with, walked with, fellowshipped with the very creator Himself! When did he first learn of it? No doubt before the first Sabbath, a week later, ever happened! How long did he walk with God before Eve at the fruit of the tree? It may have been thousands of years, not some "short time". They were eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have sustained them eternally had they continued to do so. It was removal from the tree of life that brought upon them death.

Your comment that Adam was not the first man is bizzare, I'm not sure it's even worth responding to. You might want to discuss that with Dr. Rich, he too seems to think that Adam was not the first man created on the earth, good luck with that discussion.

[BibleOnly]

Make whatever you want of the story of Adam and Eve, why each of them ate when they did and why. I offered my take on the story, thats all.

[ClubV12]

"Who did Cain marry?"

A question I will not be drawn into, but like I said, Dr. Rich has some rather bizzare theories on that, I won't discuss them with him either.

I see no evidence, no bible verse that indicates to me that God "rested forever" from His work. I see evidence He rested a particular DAY, after working six DAYS, He rested on the seventh. He set THAT day apart, hallowed it, made it a special day for man, never changed it.

"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life,.."

Thats a good point, there is no biblical evidence, that I'm aware of, that man ate of the tree of life BEFORE sin entered. There is also no evidence man would have died had he not sinned, therefore, I cannot rule out that Adam did indeed partake of the tree of life. You assume that eating of the tree ONCE would result in eternal life, I do not. I take the verse to mean that AFTER sin, if Adam continued to have access to the tree, he would live forever. I assume the devil himself ate of the tree of life in heaven, I believe heaven HAS such a tree. That eating the fruit of said tree ONCE wii NOT guarentee eternal life. Like studying the life of Jesus, it is a thing we must do consistently. To stop eating from the tree of the life of Jesus is the same thing as to stop eating from the literal tree of life, death will follow.

You also assume Adam and Eve HAD sex before sin, I do not. I suspect that like the angels they did not have sex up until the point where their "probation closed" when they ate the fruit. Why would they need or want to? They were perfectly happy in every regard worshiping and dwelling with God, they didn't even realize they were naked before sin entered. The concept of be fruitfull and multiply would come in due time, after all, NOTHING had ever died before sin. Not a flower, not a leaf on a tree, nothing. All was perfectly lovely in every way. There was plenty of "time".

Creation: 6 literal 24 hour days, period. Before that time, the first day, there was nothing, no form, it was void. On the sixth day, "man", "Adam". The fossil record fails miserably when compared to the clear word of the bible on the point of creation. Some follow science, I follow God, and I often find great harmony between science and God. But when science contradicts God's word, I'll go with God. Regardless of the "science, falsely so called" evidence.

[BibleOnly]

"Who did Cain marry?"

A question I will not be drawn into, but like I said, Dr. Rich has some rather bizzare theories on that, I won't discuss them with him either.

[ClubV12]

That is the problem with interpretation, what DOES a verse, "imply"? There is more safety in a multitude of counselors and a strong reason why it is foolish to think God speaks to us alone and alone we are able to correctly interpret scripture on every verse. Some verses, no one will know for sure, I don't like to guess. There is room for sanctified imagination as long as that doesn't cross over into wild and outrageous speculation. When it does, silence is golden.

I don't know how old the earth is, based on the biblical record I would, with a sanctified imagination, estimate that 6,000 years or so, is accurate enough. I do not accept the scientific theories of "millions of years", but that is a whole different subject in itself. Creation vs Evolution or combinations of creation taking millions of years. I think Genesis is reliable and literall. The evening and the morning constitute one literall 24 hour period. With man, Adam, being created literally in the 6 cycle of 24 hour periods.

I have NO DOUBT heaven is indeed a very real, physical place. That the garden of Eden was patterned after it, with real tree's, rivers, flowers, grass, meadows, etc. Jesus spoke of what I believe is a literal heaven, where we will build, and plant and work AND "rest" from our work on His Sabbath day for eternity.

Why do assume anything died before sin? Sin brings death, the absence of sin is life. Life not just for man, but for plants and animals as well. Nothing will die in heaven, nothing would have died in the original perfectly created earth before sin. Imagine even picking a flower in the original earth or the real heaven right now, it will never fade, it would never die. Life ETERNAL, for all things, no more death, of any kind. Before and after sin.

[BibleOnly]

That is the problem with interpretation, what DOES a verse, "imply"? There is more safety in a multitude of counselors and a strong reason why it is foolish to think God speaks to us alone and alone we are able to correctly interpret scripture on every verse. Some verses, no one will know for sure, I don't like to guess. There is room for sanctified imagination as long as that doesn't cross over into wild and outrageous speculation. When it does, silence is golden.

[ClubV12]

BibleOnly says,

"All of nature would have to be fundamentally different for this to happen."

Ah yes, NOW your moving in the right direction, the original earth was FAR different than what we see today. It was different immediately before SIN than it was AFTER sin. It was created perfect in every way, everything the plants needed was already in the soil, the "science" and laws of physics that existed then were without doubt different in some ways than what we see and know today! Nothing had to die, nothing DID die, before sin. Nothing, not even a tree leaf. Hard to grasp, but consistent with the idea that in a perfect world, where God is totally in control, death in any form does not exist.

God created the physical laws, the laws of physics, of nature, they are by His design. It never RAINED before the flood, consider that biblical fact for a moment. It NEVER rained! How was that possible? Something changed dramatically when God made it rain, the laws of physics and nature underwent some significant change at the moment it started to rain. Man had never seen a rainbow, something significant happened to the atmosphere. We see nature as it is today, not as it was before the flood, before sin entered.

Not magic, that comes from the devil. Miraculous, that comes from God. BIG difference!

[BibleOnly]

"It never RAINED before the flood, consider that biblical fact for a moment. It NEVER rained! How was that possible? Something changed dramatically when God made it rain, the laws of physics and nature underwent some significant change at the moment it started to rain. Man had never seen a rainbow, something significant happened to the atmosphere. We see nature as it is today, not as it was before the flood, before sin entered."

I guess you've never been to the outback. I reckon some areas get rain about as often as the gap between Adam and Noah.

There are events in the Bible that are clearly eclipses. Man would say, a story about God was written to explain an event. I'd say, God knew everything would happen so the event would occur exactly when He needed it to.

Where does the Bible say that the whole universe and everything about it, changed when Adam ate that apple ?

[ClubV12]

I didn't say the Universe changed, I said the EARTH did. Deductive reasoning with SOME sanctified imagination. For instance, "It never rained...", a dew or mist came up at night to water the plants. The plants needed watering because that is the way God set up His natural laws. He didn't have to do it that way, could have used any number of different ways or substances besides water. I don't know the mind of God why He did what He did.

There was never a rainbow. Because there was never water in the proper amount in the sky for one to be displayed? I don't know "why". But I DO know the "heavens were opened", I believe that means there was a fundamental change of the atmosphere. The ozone layer changed, many other things changed. More sun means a dramatic change in the "carbon readings" science uses to date things today. Preflood vs post flood, something BIG happened! Leaves never fell from the trees before sin, they did AFTER sin. Something BIG happened. Deductive reasoning.

He didn't just "know" what would happen sometime in the future, it happened because God willed it to happen when He did. Of course He knew He would when the time came. When He stopped the sun from moving, there is no need to explain that in scientific terms, He stopped the sun from going down, period. Not a problem for the One who CREATED the Sun in the first place!! Is anything to hard for God? Science has come up with various "natural" explanations of how the Red Sea might have parted. No doubt God works WITH His natural laws a lot of the time, but He is certainly not limited by them in any way. I'm OK with scientists SPECULATING on how God might have parted the waters of the Red Sea for the Israelites, whatever. I'm more OK with the simple fact that He did!! I consider it a miracle, flat out, needs no other dissection or explanation, but if you have one, fine, no problem. Maybe thats how God did it after all? Eh,,, maybe not, maybe it was just a miracle.

Speed of light a limiting factor for the angels? Not at all. Read the story of Daniel and the flight of the angel from the throne of God to earth. There was a passing of "time" before the angel arrived, a length of travel time. How far away IS heaven, the REAL place? It's outside OUR solar system, I'm sure of it. It's somewhere within the Universe I suspect. The distance to the edge of OUR solar system is measured in thousands of light years. Angels, in their travel, cannot be limited by what WE see as the laws of physics.

[BibleOnly]

"I didn't say the Universe changed, I said the EARTH did."

I believe the laws of physics have always applied. I don't believe the nature of life on earth changed in a moment. I sure don't think God did that without telling us.

"Leaves never fell from the trees before sin, they did AFTER sin."

Again, where does the Bible say this ?

"Deductive reasoning."

I'd prefer to assume that if the Bible doesn't say it, I shouldn't be at all emphatic about it.

" Not a problem for the One who CREATED the Sun in the first place!! Is anything to hard for God?"

This is a straw man. God could, in theory, do anything, only He is restrained by His Word and by righteousness. He is a God of order, I believe He created the universe to work exactly as He required it, not that He tinkers with it from time to time.

" I consider it a miracle, flat out, needs no other dissection or explanation, but if you have one, fine, no problem. Maybe thats how God did it after all? Eh,,, maybe not, maybe it was just a miracle. "

Maybe, I just stated an opinion, you seem to be the one being emphatic :-)

[ClubV12]

"He is a God of order, I believe He created the universe to work exactly as He required it, not that He tinkers with it from time to time."

I completely agree with that concept, while at the same time not limiting God by His natural laws. Like stopping the sun, or causing the rain at the time of the flood. Not being "emphatic" so much as these are the conclusions I have come to while considering, deductive reasoning, various biblical events. I LOVE to think of heaven and what it might be like. The never fading flowers, the grass on the hills, where we will build and inhabit our mansions. Heaven is very real to me.

As for me, I have a hard time with the concept that "death" in any form existed before sin. Therefore, the leaves did not fall from the tree's, if you follow that logic.

[BibleOnly]

I guess I have to ask again, on what basis from the Bible do you believe that flowers never die ? Why do you think that heaven is a real, literal, other place ? Where do you think it is ? Who is there ? Where does the Bible support this ?

[ClubV12]

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

You see this as some kind of "spirit world", I see it as it is stated. Literal mansions, a literal prepared place, that where He is, we will join Him in that physical location. The same place where Gods throne is physically located, the same place where the angels physically dwell and worship God and do His bidding. That place where a literal tree of life will once again be provided, living, growing, never dieing, never being removed. With real leaves, that never fall, just as it was in the garden.

WHERE is heaven physically located? I dunno,,, far away enough that the Hubble telescope won't find it!!! Far outside OUR tiny, miniscule solar system.

[BibleOnly]

But the Bible says Jesus always spoke in parables ? The Bible says that Jesus has gone to His Father, yes, but that we sleep until Jesus returns. When that happens, we rise, and we stay here, according to Revelation. The New Jerusalem is the first physical place you're going to find. And Revelation sets out the work that God's people do with Him, restoring Israel. So, we're not going to go to a big house and spend eternity doing nothing.

[ClubV12]

Your right in many respects. We will be busy, we will build, we will travel to other created worlds, we will explore the Universe. We will have plenty to do! Where will "HQ" be? The New Jerusalem? Between the mountain and the sea, in the land of Israel, on this earth, it will be recreated anew, in time. NOT the restoration of Israel as we know it today, simply that location when the time comes.

We may sleep, some will not, some will go through to the end and actually see Jesus coming in the clouds. Those who are asleep will be caught up with those who remain alive, having never seen or tasted death. All "changed in the twinkling of an eye", putting on immortality at that moment.

It is ALWAYS a challenge when interpreting scripture to understand what is symbolic and what is literal. What is a parabale and what is literal. Difficult, all but impossible in some respects. We do need to be cautious in this regard.

[Q.E.D.]

I guess I have to ask again, on what basis from the Bible do you believe that flowers never die?

"4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."(Rev 21:4)

[BibleOnly]

That's a pretty loose interpretation, but that's fine, if it makes you happy.

[Q.E.D.]

That's a pretty loose interpretation, but that's fine, if it makes you happy.

"The Lord is my shepherd." In these words, the believer is taught to express his satisfaction in the care of the great Pastor of the universe, the Redeemer and Preserver of men. With joy he reflects that he has a shepherd, and that shepherd is Jehovah. A flock of sheep, gentle and harmless, feeding in verdant pastures, under the care of a skilful, watchful, and tender shepherd, forms an emblem of believers brought back to the Shepherd of their souls. The greatest abundance is but a dry pasture to a wicked man, who relishes in it only what pleases the senses; but to a godly man, who by faith tastes the goodness of God in all his enjoyments, though he has but little of the world, it is a green pasture. The Lord gives quiet and contentment in the mind, whatever the lot is. Are we blessed with the green pastures of the ordinances, let us not think it enough to pass through them, but let us abide in them. The consolations of the Holy Spirit are the still waters by which the saints are led; the streams which flow from the Fountain of living waters. Those only are led by the still waters of comfort, who walk in the paths of righteousness. The way of duty is the truly pleasant way. The work of righteousness in peace. In these paths we cannot walk, unless. God lead us into them, and lead us on in them. Discontent and distrust proceed from unbelief; an unsteady walk is the consequence: let us then simply trust our Shepherd's care, and hearken to his voice."(Matthew Henry Bible Commentary, Ps 23)

[fccool]

BibleOnly is correct to the respect of having two accounts of creation. Genesis 1 and 2 don't tell the same story, although most Adventists and Christians believe that it does.

Gen1 talks about general creation - which probably derived from separate Hebrew tradition

Gen2 talks about the special creation - which likewise was derived from distinct Hebrew tradition.

Observe:

Gen 1 order:

Day 1 - light

Day 2 - atmosphere/water

Day 3 - Dry land vegetation, plants etc

Day 4 - Sun, moon, stars

Day 5 - Fish, Birds

Day 6 - Animals and finally Men, male and female

Gen 2 order

Begins with the idea that Creation is completed, that God rested and sanctified creation, and then there's a weird break in the Narrative, as though it restarts again.

Quote:

This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up...

So, we back to the idea that no shrub has yet to appear, and no plant has yet to come up. Sure, we can explain it away as God created things as seeds, and not in their complete form... yet it would somewhat contradict the ideas given in Gen 1 account.

Let's keep on reading.

Quote:

Then the LORD God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Before the plants have sprung up? But how can that be? How long does it take for the plants to grow, or did they grow in a day in Garden? Perhaps "planted" means created in complete form?

Quote:

Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

So, the animals were formed after he created Adam?

Quote:

But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

[Windsor]

I'm not sure why it's such a mystery as to who Cain married. Does anyone think Adam and Eve only had three sons? The problem with siblings having kids didn't exist them: namely each having recessive mutations leading to a child with both copies of the recessive allele. Also, nobody would give think for a second that it was gross because there was nothing to compare it to. Besides, even Eve was created from Adam's side.

How long did he walk with God before Eve at the fruit of the tree? It may have been thousands of years, not some "short time".