Adam and Eve

[BibleOnly]

I'm not sure why it's such a mystery as to who Cain married. Does anyone think Adam and Eve only had three sons? The problem with siblings having kids didn't exist them: namely each having recessive mutations leading to a child with both copies of the recessive allele. Also, nobody would give think for a second that it was gross because there was nothing to compare it to. Besides, even Eve was created from Adam's side.

[ClubV12]

We know how long Adam lived AFTER sin. Being "attractive" and attracted to each other does not necessarily mean sex. I'm sure the angels are very attractive as well, so what? "Sin" takes awhile to take root, it's not likely the first thing Eve did was rush over to the tree she had been told not go near. I suspect she didn't MEAN to go there at all! She simply wandered away from Adam's side and found herself in close proximity to the tree, curiosity took over from there. It must have been amazing to see and hear a talking animal IN the tree! No other animals on earth talked, yet this "serpant" had the most pleasant and intelligent voice. Surely she was drawn in to investigate further. In so doing, she placed herself on Satans ground and opened up a dialog, reasoning she was smart enough to "handle it". His power of deception is great, she was overcome, by curiosity.

There is a LOT of "assumption" going on in this thread! I'm not suggesting I have the answers by a long shot, but I don't bring to the table any pre-conceived ideas based on human reasoning either.

The world BEFORE sin. The world AFTER sin. The world AFTER the flood. Significant changes to be sure, exactly what they were is open to debate. Intermarriage between siblings for instance. Taboo in OUR society, not so much in many other societies even now. Less so the farther back in history you go. Not even a second thought in Adam and Eve's time. Did Eve bear one child at a time? I doubt it! Likely, a "multitude" of children with a single instance of pregnancy.

Do you think there were mountain ranges BEFORE the flood? I don't! I think the world was like one vast meadow with a temperate climates all around. Why would it NOT be the case? The world was, after all, created "perfect" in every regard. That changed "significantly" when the heavens opened a HUGE volume of water dropped out of the atmosphere. Likewise, when the waters of the deep sprang up at the same time massive disruptions of the earths surface would have occured. Things like "mountain ranges" came into existence that had never been there before.

[BibleOnly]

" "Sin" takes awhile to take root, it's not likely the first thing Eve did was rush over to the tree she had been told not go near."

So, the serpent waited a good while before getting involved ? How come ? This is all guesswork. The most logical reading is that it was immediate, which is why they did not have time to eat of the tree of life.

"There is a LOT of "assumption" going on in this thread!"

Agreed

"Do you think there were mountain ranges BEFORE the flood? I don't! I think the world was like one vast meadow with a temperate climates all around. Why would it NOT be the case?"

Because there's no logical or ( more important ) scriptural reason to believe that it was as you describe.

[ClubV12]

Theres no scriptural reason to believe it was NOT as I describe! There are no referrences to mountains in this most perfect of worlds when it was first created. There is no mention of rain. You can count on there were no "floods" as a result. Rivers, lakes, streams, oceans, all in perfect harmony, flowing steadily, never disrupting themselves or anything else. It was in all regards "perfect", a concept we have trouble wrapping our head around because we have never seen "perfect" in nature.

I have no doubt the devil waited patiently for the right time and place to entrap the happy couple inhabiting the garden, don't underestimate his skill and cunning. He was once the highest angel in heaven, intelligence on a level we can't begin to comprehend. To enter into a debate with him is virtual suicide. Einstein would be a mental midget in comparison.

Where was the ONE place Satan COULD tempt them? The tree of knowledge of good and evil. The ONLY tree God had said they could not eat off, the one in the midst of the garden. THAT is where the evil one laid in wait, for them to approach THAT tree and to wonder about "why" God said they could not eat from it. Crafty devil....

You once again ASSUME they did not eat of the tree of life, I do not. Your take on THAT tree is that if they ate of it ONCE they would live forever. I don't believe that, I think the fruit had to be eaten consistently on some kind of schedule. Why? Consider the fallen angels, obviously they were not granted eternal life the moment they were created. For how many eon's of time they existed BEFORE there was "war in heaven" we have no way of knowing. But you can bet it is well into the thousands of years. And now, they are going to die. Adam and Eve, likewise, would not have been granted eternal life at the moment of their creation. Something had to sustain them, for potentially thousands of years. I submit that "something" was a tree, of life.

[BibleOnly]

" He was once the highest angel in heaven"

Where does the Bible say that ?

"To enter into a debate with him is virtual suicide"

Jesus did OK... I suspect a Christian should be able to, too, otherwise none would last.

"You once again ASSUME they did not eat of the tree of life, I do not. Your take on THAT tree is that if they ate of it ONCE they would live forever."

It's the most logical reading of the verses, but I agree that there's some room for interpretation, excepting for the good point someone made, that we know how old Adam was when he died, and so that places an upper limit on your assumed period in Eden.

[ClubV12]

Only if you start counting Adams age from the time he left the garden, which was my point. Let us for a moment consider the possibility that the counting of his age began from the moment of creation. How many hundreds of years did he live in the garden before he was forced to leave?

Opinions vary on the status of Lucifer in heaven, in my opinion he was the highest ranking angel in heaven.

Ezekiel 28:13 - 17 and Job 38:1-7 are just a couple of verses, there are many more that "paint a picture" of his status. Just something I personally reasoned out, take it for what it's worth.

[BibleOnly]

I'm not sure that I accept that angels existed in heaven, within a ranking system. Scriptures ?

[Windsor]

We know how long Adam lived AFTER sin. Being "attractive" and attracted to each other does not necessarily mean sex. I'm sure the angels are very attractive as well, so what?

[BibleOnly]

" Adam and Eve were formed by the very hands of God and would therefore be very beautiful."

That is a very fleshy and natural assumption. Jesus Himself was nothing to look at, why would Adam and Eve be ? And by what standards ?

[Windsor]

"We cannot understand how Christ became a little, helpless babe. He could have come to earth in such beauty that He would have been unlike the sons of men. His face could have been bright with light, and His form could have been tall and beautiful. He could have come in such a way as to charm those who looked upon Him; but this was not the way that God planned He should come among the sons of men.

He was to be like those who belonged to the human family and to the Jewish race. His features were to be like those of other human beings, and He was not to have such beauty of person as to make people point Him out as different from others. He was to come as one of the human family, and to stand as a man before heaven and earth. He had come to take man's place, to pledge Himself in man's behalf, to pay the debt that sinners owed. He was to live a pure life on the earth, and show that Satan had told a falsehood when he claimed that the human family belonged to him forever, and that God could not take men out of his hands."

Adam and Eve, on the other hand, were sinless, flawless, beautiful creatures made by the very hands of the omnipotent Jesus. The physical beauty, of course, is then in the eyes of God. There are people, who regardless of one's own culture, will be seen as beautiful by others. There are also those people who, regardless of culture, will be seen as physically unappealing.

[Dr. Rich]

It's not about the ten commandments or eating from the tree of knowing good and evil. Nor is it about grace and righteousness by faith. What it all boils down to is obeying what God commands. God placed the tree of knowing good from evil in the garden to give Adam and Eve a choice. God wants HIS followers to choose to obey and without any choice this would not happen.

Therefore, just as God allowed the tree of knowing good from evil and Satan in the Garden of Eden, so too did God allow the seeds of tares to be sowed in the New Testiment to give each of us a choice to follow Jesus or anyone else who says they are of Christ--but are not.

[Guest]

Yeah we know. That's pretty much what you say on every thread. Gotta choose between Jesus or Paul.

[Dr. Rich]

You are correct about the difference between Gen. 1 and 2:4-. Here is MY thory (I as not there) about creation:

http://web.mac.com/spiritoftruth/STM/Must_Read/Entries/2008/9/14_In_the_Beginning.html