1844

[BibleOnly]

OK, I give up. What happened in heaven in 1844. Is there any evidence for it beyond a failed prediction by the early SDA ?

[phkrause]

It was not a failed prediction. It was a mistaken event by the Millerites, not the SDAs. Mr. Miller thought that Jesus would come. And you seem to give up pretty easily.

[ClubV12]

It's a complex question that will take some time to answer. You can't cover 2,300 years of earths history in a paragraph or two without causing a tremendous amount of confusion and an endless parade of questions.

Having said that,,,, here we go! Fasten your seat belt. First of all, it was widely accepted by many, many biblical scholars of the early 1800's (and before) that Daniels prophecy was about to end. This was a world wide understanding. William Miller, in America, was the most profound theologian on this event. BUT, there were a large number of other contributors that filled in details as they worked together, or separately to determine the exact date. October 22 (as I recall), 1844. There were a couple of dates earlier than that proposed and several dates AFTER that, largely because of the great disappointment of the apparent failure of 1844.

It is commonly held that William Miller himself preached a second coming at the time. But this is not entirely accurate, it was mostly the people associated with him that preached a second coming. It was "good for business", large gatherings, tent meetings, offering plates passed around, tracts, pamphlets, books printed, speaking fee's. BIG business! Miller, for the most part DID NOT like to put a fine point on WHAT was going to happen. His work, largely simple math based on historical records, said Daniels prophecy would end. Then what? He didn't know for sure, but was sure his math was accurate. Turns out, his math WAS accurate! I've "worked the numbers" myself, many times, to "prove it" to myself. Wow, the math really DOES work! 1844 alright, no question in my mind!

To understand what happened we need to go back to the ancient sanctuary service of the Israelites. The courtyard, the Holy Place, the Most Holy Place, the animal sacrifice, the ark of the covenant. A really fascinating journey, a TRUE story, not like that fake Hollywood block buster stuff with some guy from Indiana....

To be continued....

[Lysimachus]

It's a very large study BibleOnly, so it's not that we don't want to answer you, it's just that if we are going to answer you, we want to give you the whole story from beginning to end so you can see the big picture, not just bits and pieces.

I'll try to get to answering this question when I have more time on my hands. Right now I'm pressed.

Some good books I recommend are:

1. 1844 Made Simple, by Clifford Goldstien (Bible evidence)

2. The Second Great Advent Movement, by J.N. Loughborough (Historical evidence)

[Q.E.D.]

OK, I give up. What happened in heaven in 1844. Is there any evidence for it beyond a failed prediction by the early SDA ?

There were no Seventh-day Adventists in 1844. They did not come into being until 1863. Check out Wikipedia!

[ClubV12]

Fellow Adventists, feel free to jump in here, I'm beat.... :)

[BibleOnly]

It's a complex question that will take some time to answer. You can't cover 2,300 years of earths history in a paragraph or two without causing a tremendous amount of confusion and an endless parade of questions.

Having said that,,,, here we go! Fasten your seat belt. First of all, it was widely accepted by many, many biblical scholars of the early 1800's (and before) that Daniels prophecy was about to end. This was a world wide understanding. William Miller, in America, was the most profound theologian on this event. BUT, there were a large number of other contributors that filled in details as they worked together, or separately to determine the exact date. October 22 (as I recall), 1844. There were a couple of dates earlier than that proposed and several dates AFTER that, largely because of the great disappointment of the apparent failure of 1844.

It is commonly held that William Miller himself preached a second coming at the time. But this is not entirely accurate, it was mostly the people associated with him that preached a second coming. It was "good for business", large gatherings, tent meetings, offering plates passed around, tracts, pamphlets, books printed, speaking fee's. BIG business! Miller, for the most part DID NOT like to put a fine point on WHAT was going to happen. His work, largely simple math based on historical records, said Daniels prophecy would end. Then what? He didn't know for sure, but was sure his math was accurate. Turns out, his math WAS accurate! I've "worked the numbers" myself, many times, to "prove it" to myself. Wow, the math really DOES work! 1844 alright, no question in my mind!

To understand what happened we need to go back to the ancient sanctuary service of the Israelites. The courtyard, the Holy Place, the Most Holy Place, the animal sacrifice, the ark of the covenant. A really fascinating journey, a TRUE story, not like that fake Hollywood block buster stuff with some guy from Indiana....

To be continued....

Um.... OK, I am trying to follow this, but how is it impressive that if you plug the same assumptions in to the same formulas as some other guy, you get the same date ? I believe the Bible does give prophecies that are fulfilled to exact dates, I'm just not sure what is if that you think happened (yet), and in the meantime, I'm not sure that the same math giving the same number is all that impressive :-)

Why is it that October is always the date of Jesus' return ? There's been a number of Jesus' return predictions in the last decade, all October, I am sure.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

OK, I give up. What happened in heaven in 1844. Is there any evidence for it beyond a failed prediction by the early SDA ?

There were no Seventh-day Adventists in 1844. They did not come into being until 1863. Check out Wikipedia!

I used the term 'early SDA' rather than dig too deep and work out the chronological name, it's a shorthand. I apologise if it seemed unclear.

[BibleOnly]

It's a very large study BibleOnly, so it's not that we don't want to answer you, it's just that if we are going to answer you, we want to give you the whole story from beginning to end so you can see the big picture, not just bits and pieces.

I'll try to get to answering this question when I have more time on my hands. Right now I'm pressed.

Some good books I recommend are:

1. 1844 Made Simple, by Clifford Goldstien (Bible evidence)

2. The Second Great Advent Movement, by J.N. Loughborough (Historical evidence)

I was sent two books by my SDA friend ( who defriended me for rejecting the sabbath ). One was an overly complex 'how to be saved' book full of made up stories called The ride of your life. I have it in front of me. The other was a massive tome that I returned unread because it would have taken a month to really read ( and I read at least a book a week, I am a voracious reader ). Was this what that book was probably about ? I got the impression it was more precious to her than her bible ( I assume b/c a bible is easy to replace ).

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

It's a very large study BibleOnly, so it's not that we don't want to answer you, it's just that if we are going to answer you, we want to give you the whole story from beginning to end so you can see the big picture, not just bits and pieces.

I'll try to get to answering this question when I have more time on my hands. Right now I'm pressed.

Some good books I recommend are:

1. 1844 Made Simple, by Clifford Goldstien (Bible evidence)

2. The Second Great Advent Movement, by J.N. Loughborough (Historical evidence)

I was sent two books by my SDA friend ( who defriended me for rejecting the sabbath ). One was an overly complex 'how to be saved' book full of made up stories called The ride of your life. I have it in front of me. The other was a massive tome that I returned unread because it would have taken a month to really read ( and I read at least a book a week, I am a voracious reader ). Was this what that book was probably about ? I got the impression it was more precious to her than her bible ( I assume b/c a bible is easy to replace ).

Forget that Adventist person. Those books are not something I'd give to new people, and I doubt he knew his stuff.

1844 Made Simple is a very small book, and pretty cheap.

Second Great Advent Movement is more advanced, tracing the history of course.

Actually, I'd start out by reading The Great Controversy online. You'll find the story of the great disappointment from chapters 18 to 27 of the newer 1911 version. She documents the history with scripture pretty well, and it is fascinating. At least you'll be come familiar with the "big picture" in these chapters, then we can zero in on the details.

[ClubV12]

The term Adventist is accurate, most folks of the time were known as Millerites BUT, they held in common the idea that they were looking for Christs soon coming "Advent".

Remember, Miller was not alone in his research on this subject and date, other scholars around the world, working separately came to the same conclusions. It was NOT Miller himself that finally arrived at the October date in fact. The specific date was arrived at by a guy named Smith, who was working closely with Miller. Miller at first rejected it, but soon became convinced that date was correct after all.

I myself questioned Millers date's along the way. Some of the dates are very solid, others remain open to debate to some degree. It depends on where you put the emphasis. I remember at one point I was SURE I had discoverd an error in Millers work. A sort of "Gotcha moment",,, only to reconsider and conclude Miller got it right after all. No doubt MANY scholars had many "Gotcha" moments along the way. While the math is simple, where to start and end the counting, and the numbers along the way can become problematic. ONCE you HAVE established some way points, critical historical events, the math becomes fairly simple.

I believe right now, based on Daniel 11:40 to 45 we ARE at this very moment in time. The end of all things is now very very close and Daniel 11 is almost fully fulfilled. Not quite, but soon, very soon now. Daniel has more to say on prophecy than just the 2,300 year segment you see. That part is over, but there remains prophetic events he speaks of yet to be fulfilled. As does Revelation. Those two books go hand in hand, one interpreting the other and back and forth.

[ClubV12]

I gotta go to bed, but I tell ya'll this; THIS thread is where the rubber meets the road when it comes to what Adventists believe. There is NOTHING more profound to the truth for the end times than the 2,300 year prophecy and all that it entails. Everything else pales in comparison.

[BibleOnly]

Forget that Adventist person. Those books are not something I'd give to new people, and I doubt he knew his stuff.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Actually, I'd start out by reading The Great Controversy online. You'll find the story of the great disappointment from chapters 18 to 27 of the newer 1911 version. She documents the history with scripture pretty well, and it is fascinating. At least you'll be come familiar with the "big picture" in these chapters, then we can zero in on the details.

Link ?

There are literally hundreds of them all over Google, in PDF format, in other digital formats, in html format, etc. etc.

But here is a link on the official website:

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc.asp

Chapters 18-27.

I'd encourage/ recommend reading the full book in bed, though, a paper-back, or something like that (can buy them for like 3 bucks here) when you find the time. It was so good, I could not put it down. I've read it about 3 times now from cover to cover.

The Great Controversy book is the traditional book that most Adventists recommend new people read first. Either that or Steps to Christ.

She wrote these books, especially for people outside of Adventism. Her Testimonies were directed toward the SDA Church primarily.

[BibleOnly]

OK, I have a backlog of books, I'll probably finish the one I am reading before I move in to this, so I can focus on it.

[Lysimachus]

I should briefly state that the 1843/1844 dates were not exclusive to Miller.

The first thing to remember is that Ellen White received her first vision at the age of 17 a couple months after the disappointment.

The second thing to remember is that there were approximately 75 expositors the world over who concluded the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 terminated in the 1840s, mostly 1843/44, and a few 1847. Those who concluded 1843 and 1847 had the general concepts right, but later research proved 1844 to be right, and that these honest men simply were having a little difficulty with their math, due to a lack of sources, that's all. The point is, they all recognized the 2300 days/years to commence at the same time the 70 weeks/490 years of Daniel 9 did, at the decree of Artaxerxes in his 7th year (Ezra 7). Some of them were just having difficulty nailing what year his 7th year was.

Miller was only the "chief" preacher making the biggest public impact in America, but there were preachers like Miller all over the world in every continent, preaching about the soon return of Jesus in the 1840s. It spread around the globe like a title wave, and entire churches were packed. In England alone there were like some 300 preachers saying the same thing, and even in South Africa, and many islands. Some of these preachers and teachers were influenced by William Miller, others had never even so much as heard of him, and came to these conclusions on their own. Interestingly, children in countries were adults were not allowed to preach, began to stand up and preach on tables, and call the adults to repentance. Some of them were even 5 years old, preaching and quoting from the scriptures, even though they could not read. Many of these children received visions, concerning the "hour of His judgment". Many of these children knew nothing about the prophecy of the 2300 days, they just preached what God told them.

Many people have had a limited understanding of how just earth-shattering and far reaching the world over this movement was. This is why it was called "The Great Disappointment". No other disappointment, the world over, compared. People think it was just William Miller and his little band. Not so.

J.N. Loughborough in his "The Second Great Advent Movement", and Dr. LeRoy Edwin Froom, in Volume 4 of the Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, provide the most exhaustive and comprehensive historical research concerning all the events that transpired around the world in relation to the judgment cry of the soon approaching end of the 2300 year prophecy of Daniel 8:14.

After all the evidence is viewed, from top to bottom, it seems difficult to comprehend why such a massive disappointment could have ensued globally if God did not allow this disappointment to happen for a reason. Never had so much humility and contrition for sins been seen among people the world over as the year 1844. Never had been seen so many people confessing their sins one to another and making every wrong right, agonizing to make sure they were wrinkle spot free and prepared to meet their Lord.

[BibleOnly]

"Interestingly, children in countries were adults were not allowed to preach, began to stand up and preach on tables, and call the adults to repentance. Some of them were even 5 years old, preaching and quoting from the scriptures, even though they could not read. Many of these children received visions, concerning the "hour of His judgment". Many of these children knew nothing about the prophecy of the 2300 days, they just preached what God told them. "

UFOologists have equally convincing sounding stories, which I reject. There was also an abundance of evidence surrounding the Salem witch trials. I'm only ever convinced if the Bible backs up the claims being made.

"After all the evidence is viewed, from top to bottom, it seems difficult to comprehend why such a massive disappointment could have ensued globally if God did not allow this disappointment to happen for a reason"

I'm not sure I agree. Does there have to be a reason that God 'allowed' the Nazis to exist ?

"Never had so much humility and contrition for sins been seen among people the world over as the year 1844. Never had been seen so many people confessing their sins one to another and making every wrong right, agonizing to make sure they were wrinkle spot free and prepared to meet their Lord."

Sounds like they were trying to be saved by works, not grace.

[Lysimachus]

UFOologists have equally convincing sounding stories, which I reject. There was also an abundance of evidence surrounding the Salem witch trials. I'm only ever convinced if the Bible backs up the claims being made.

That's why you need to test what took place. Learn what happened, and learn how God worked on the hearts of these little Children. Discover the fruits it gave.

I believe that all these children receiving dreams and visions was in partial a fulfillment of Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17,18:

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit." (Joel 2:28)

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:" (Acts 2:17,18)

And by the way, just for the record, the expression "all flesh" does not always mean every single person. Neither does it mean every single Christian either. It is just an expression to mean "a lot of people".

Just like "and all the world wondered after the beast." (Revelation 13:3)

Does it mean everybody? Including the Christians? Or is there an exception? Of course there is an exception. Too many people get hung up on letters and words rather than grasping "points" or "concepts".

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

UFOologists have equally convincing sounding stories, which I reject. There was also an abundance of evidence surrounding the Salem witch trials. I'm only ever convinced if the Bible backs up the claims being made.

That's why you need to test what took place. Learn what happened, and learn how God worked on the hearts of these little Children. Discover the fruits it gave.

I believe that all these children receiving dreams and visions was in partial a fulfillment of Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17,18:

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit." (Joel 2:28)

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:" (Acts 2:17,18)

And by the way, just for the record, the expression "all flesh" does not always mean every single person. Neither does it mean every single Christian either. It is just an expression to mean "a lot of people".

Just like "and all the world wondered after the beast." (Revelation 13:3)

Does it mean everybody? Including the Christians? Or is there an exception? Of course there is an exception. Too many people get hung up on letters and words rather than grasping "points" or "concepts".

I agree with you, I think people do get caught up, for example, I don't believe that Acts indicates that only young men would see visions, or only old men would dream dreams. Nor do I think it means it would be universal. And yes, my comment was meant to say, I don't take this story as proof of anything, but I'd compare it to scripture and then decide, not that I'd reject it because you said it....

[miz3]

The second thing to remember is that there were approximately 75 expositors the world over who concluded the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 terminated in the 1840s, mostly 1843/44, and a few 1847. Those who concluded 1843 and 1847 had the general concepts right, but later research proved 1844 to be right, and that these honest men simply were having a little difficulty with their math, due to a lack of sources, that's all. The point is, they all recognized the 2300 days/years to commence at the same time the 70 weeks/490 years of Daniel 9 did, at the decree of Artaxerxes in his 7th year (Ezra 7). Some of them were just having difficulty nailing what year his 7th year was.

Since these seventy-five "scholars", "expositors" came from all over the world can you tell me which ones of these came from:

1. China.

2. India.

3. Any African nation (native born in the continent of Africa not some western missionary).

4. Any of the Southeast Asia countries like Thailand, etc.

5. Brazil, Argentina, or any other South American Country.

6. Any none western person who comes from the Asian-Pacific area.

7. Maybe a Russian "expositor". Or a Polish, Cezch, Romanian, etc. "expositor".

8. Saudi Arabian "expositor", or Iranian, Afghanistan, etc. "expositor".

Or are all your seventy-five "expositors" from the Western Civilization?

So maybe your statement of "world wide" is not exactly correct? Could it be that you are "inflating" the actual FACTS about where the "expositors" came from?

[miz3]

And by the way, just for the record, the expression "all flesh" does not always mean every single person. Neither does it mean every single Christian either. It is just an expression to mean "a lot of people".

Just like "and all the world wondered after the beast." (Revelation 13:3)

Does it mean everybody? Including the Christians? Or is there an exception? Of course there is an exception. Too many people get hung up on letters and words rather than grasping "points" or "concepts".

Instead of "all flesh" why doesn't God speak actual plain language by saying "a lot of people". Its not hard to do it right but you are saying God was intentionally vague by using just an "expression". That's ridiculous. If you believe your explanation then I know a "snake oil" salesman who will give you at a reduced price some liquid that will cure every disease known to humans.

What some will do to explain away and defend their failed interpretations of the Bible.

[BibleOnly]

"What some will do to explain away and defend their failed interpretations of the Bible."

I think he's right. God is not pouring out His spirit on everyone, BUT, everyone CAN receive His Spirit. He's made that offer, it's not vague or a word game or a riddle. He has made it possible for ALL FLESH to be saved, but He's not forcing anyone.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

The second thing to remember is that there were approximately 75 expositors the world over who concluded the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 terminated in the 1840s, mostly 1843/44, and a few 1847. Those who concluded 1843 and 1847 had the general concepts right, but later research proved 1844 to be right, and that these honest men simply were having a little difficulty with their math, due to a lack of sources, that's all. The point is, they all recognized the 2300 days/years to commence at the same time the 70 weeks/490 years of Daniel 9 did, at the decree of Artaxerxes in his 7th year (Ezra 7). Some of them were just having difficulty nailing what year his 7th year was.

Since these seventy-five "scholars", "expositors" came from all over the world can you tell me which ones of these came from:

1. China.

2. India.

3. Any African nation (native born in the continent of Africa not some western missionary).

4. Any of the Southeast Asia countries like Thailand, etc.

5. Brazil, Argentina, or any other South American Country.

6. Any none western person who comes from the Asian-Pacific area.

7. Maybe a Russian "expositor". Or a Polish, Cezch, Romanian, etc. "expositor".

8. Saudi Arabian "expositor", or Iranian, Afghanistan, etc. "expositor".

Or are all your seventy-five "expositors" from the Western Civilization?

So maybe your statement of "world wide" is not exactly correct? Could it be that you are "inflating" the actual FACTS about where the "expositors" came from?

I don't think it is fair to include all those pagan countries when you know very well we are dealing with Christian countries here. Obviously, learned "Chinese" writers/teachers are not going to be reading their Bible. And if they did, they were converts, not expositors.

We're talking about all over the world in the sense of continents, yes.

I have documented many of their names as well, and have long detailed files and scans of charts of these accounts, but it would take me a good long while to compile all the info on here. Perhaps after the New Year sometime.

The Bible also "inflated" things by saying "all the world wondered after the Beast", but we know all the world will not wonder after the Beast. Generally speaking, this conviction of Christ coming in the 1840s was a global event. No need to get technical.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Since these seventy-five "scholars", "expositors" came from all over the world can you tell me which ones of these came from:

1. China.

2. India.

3. Any African nation (native born in the continent of Africa not some western missionary).

4. Any of the Southeast Asia countries like Thailand, etc.

5. Brazil, Argentina, or any other South American Country.

6. Any none western person who comes from the Asian-Pacific area.

7. Maybe a Russian "expositor". Or a Polish, Cezch, Romanian, etc. "expositor".

8. Saudi Arabian "expositor", or Iranian, Afghanistan, etc. "expositor".

Or are all your seventy-five "expositors" from the Western Civilization?

So maybe your statement of "world wide" is not exactly correct? Could it be that you are "inflating" the actual FACTS about where the "expositors" came from?

I don't think it is fair to include all those pagan countries when you know very well we are dealing with Christian countries here. Obviously, learned "Chinese" writers/teachers are not going to be reading their Bible. And if they did, they were converts, not expositors.

We're talking about all over the world in the sense of continents, yes.

I have documented many of their names as well, and have long detailed files and scans of charts of these accounts, but it would take me a good long while to compile all the info on here. Perhaps after the New Year sometime.

The Bible also "inflated" things by saying "all the world wondered after the Beast", but we know all the world will not wonder after the Beast. Generally speaking, this conviction of Christ coming in the 1840s was a global event. No need to get technical.

So basically you don't have any "expositors" except "white western culture" expositors. That kind a small section of the world. Yet you use words like "all over the world" when in fact you are not even talking about the MAJORITY OF THE WORLD either by land mass/population.

You really mean a small minority saw things the way say they were. This is why you cannot cite the "expositors" from those places I listed. They just flat out do not exist.

Don't you think that "honesty" would require you to state exactly who did and who did not know anything of this "1844 theories" which included the "prediction of Christ's Second Coming"?

The FACT is the vast majority of the world knew absolutely NOTHING about "1844 and the Second Coming".

This is the absolute truthful fact and yet you are trying to create an impression that the "whole world was in turmoil over this basically an American phenomenon". Maybe a few in parts of Western Europe but that is it.

Yet you make it sound like this was the headline news of the day (1844 days) all over the world. You know that is not the correct impression.

Even among Christian nations of the time (1844) this was not a major happening as a rule. There were some localities that were indeed saturated with this phenomenon but those localities were mainly in the US and a very very small part of Western Europe.

You say I am not being fair, however you are the one who said "all over the world".

You should have been "fair" and told us that you meant only in Christian parts of the World (America, Parts of Western Europe). Now that would be fair.

Its not "fair" when you say "all over the world" when you know that it was not all over the world.

[miz3]

The Bible also "inflated" things by saying "all the world wondered after the Beast", but we know all the world will not wonder after the Beast. Generally speaking, this conviction of Christ coming in the 1840s was a global event. No need to get technical.

How do you know that the whole world will not wonder after the beast?

Please cite Scripture to support your statement. Book, chapter and verse(s) please.

Secondly, "generally speaking, this conviction of Christ coming in the 1840's was a global event".

Again, please show your evidence that such was the case in:

1. China, Korea, Japan.

2. India, Pakistan, Iran.

3. Oceanic Pacific areas.

4. Southeast Asia.

5. Africa.

6. Middle East.

7. Russia.

8. Eastern Europe.

9. South America.

10. Central America.

This is most of the world and you know very well these places knew absolutely nothing of this "1844-Second Coming phenomenon" you are trying to sell to us on this thread.

Can you show news reports from the ten list above that these people were in a turmoil about this "major phenomenon" you are talking about?

Of course you cannot because they are nonexistent. Of course not because the events you speak of never ever were even known in those parts of the world.

Admit it, you are talking only about parts of the US and some very small localities in only small parts of Western Europe.

No World Turmoil which is the false picture you are trying to create.