1844

[John317]

...

1. I am seriously saying that God through Jesus Christ actually saved "everyone" on the Cross.

That is much different than saying that everyone will go to Heaven and live forever.

2. Not everyone will be in "saved in Heaven" even though God on the Cross saved every human by dying for all their sins.

Hebrews chapter two verse three states that many will "REJECT" the great Salvation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So not everyone will be in Heaven, but all have had their sins paid in full because of Jesus Christ as Paul in Romans chapter five clearly states.

3. Many people even in SDAism don't like this because it means the human entity did absolutely nothing in order to be saved.

Let's assume for the time being that what you claim here is true.

What makes the difference, then, between those who are saved and those who are lost?

And how does the concept that all humanity were justified at the cross make the Investigative Judgment a false teaching?

[BibleOnly]

1. I am seriously saying that God through Jesus Christ actually saved "everyone" on the Cross.

That is much different than saying that everyone will go to Heaven and live forever.

[John317]

I will do my best to answer your questions about the Investigative Judgment, but since I've posted hundreds of posts on this topic over the past 7 years, I will also give you two links where you can read and study the topic on your own:

Entire book:

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/index.htm

Chapter regarding the Investigative Judgment:

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-23.htm

You might also do well to do a search on the Forum of what has already been posted on the topic. You will probably find that your questions are answered there.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: miz3

1. I am seriously saying that God through Jesus Christ actually saved "everyone" on the Cross.

That is much different than saying that everyone will go to Heaven and live forever.

OK, if you mean that Jesus made it possible for everyone to be saved, then O agree

Yes, me too.

But such a belief does not show that the Investigative Judgment contradicts the teaching of Scripture. SDAs believe that Jesus made it possible for all humans to be saved.

[John317]

.... SDA belief, which I agree is founded in legalism, but I don't see anyone here consciously believing what you're saying.

A true understanding of what SDAs believe will show that SDA beliefs are not founded on legalism but on faith in Jesus Christ. This is not to deny, however, that some SDAs-- as with members of all Christians groups-- are either legalistic or express their views in a way that appears legalistic.

[BibleOnly]

I will do my best to answer your questions about the Investigative Judgment, but since I've posted hundreds of posts on this topic over the past 7 years, I will also give you two links where you can read and study the topic on your own:

Entire book:

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/index.htm

Chapter regarding the Investigative Judgment:

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-23.htm

You might also do well to do a search on the Forum of what has already been posted on the topic. You will probably find that your questions are answered there.

Interesting. I have read a bit of it. I found this:

And as during the typical Day of Atonement the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary removed the sins accumulated there, so the heavenly sanctuary is cleansed by the final removal of the record of sins in the heavenly books. But before the records are finally cleared, they will be examined to determine who through repentance and faith in Christ is entitled to enter His eternal kingdom. The cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary, therefore, involves a work of investigation or judgment29 that fully reflects the nature of the Day of Atonement as a day of judgment.30 This judgment, which ratifies the decision as to who will be saved and who will be lost, must take place before the Second Advent, for at that time Christ returns with His reward "'to give to every one according to his work'" (Rev. 22:12). Then, also, Satan's accusations will be answered (cf. Rev. 12:10).

All who have truly repented and by faith claimed the blood of Christ's atoning sacrifice have received pardon. When their names come up in this judgment and they are found clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness, their sins are blotted out and they are accounted worthy of eternal life (Luke 20:35). "'He who overcomes, '" Jesus said, "'shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels'" (Rev. 3:5).

I don't believe God keeps a 'record of sins' in a book, and has to review them. I don't believe that there's a physical place where God has physical books with physical writing in them. I think that's all a metaphor, because God is spirit, He's not sitting in any particular place, He's everywhere, and no-one above anywhere else.

I also found this:

It is clear, therefore, that the Scriptures present the heavenly sanctuary as a real place (Heb. 8:2, NEB), not a metaphor or abstraction.4 The heavenly sanctuary is the primary dwelling place of God.

The message of the sanctuary was a message of salvation. God used its services to proclaim the gospel (Heb. 4:2).

Hbr 8:1 ¶ Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hbr 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

I don't think this proves that this is not a metaphor, he's using the language of the Hebrews to talk to the Hebrews. It's not wrong, but it does not have to be literal. It's the following through of a type.

Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

This does not mention a tabernacle at all, this verse doesn't remotely prove what the article claims.

I'm reading the rest, but it seems shaky to me. I just don't see any verse actually saying that God has a written list of sins, or that He'd need a long time to review them, or would ever not know who is saved and who is not.

[John317]

... I just don't see any verse actually saying that God has a written list of sins, or that He'd need a long time to review them, or would ever not know who is saved and who is not.

The last part of your sentence here objects to things that SDAs don't even claim. We don't believe or teach that God needs a long time to review the sins, nor will you ever find anything in our publications indicating we believe God does not know who is saved.

As you read, what are you learning about the reasons for the Investigative Judgment? Please notice we never say that one of the purposes of the IJ is so God can learn who is saved.

[BibleOnly]

And as during the typical Day of Atonement the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary removed the sins accumulated there, so the heavenly sanctuary is cleansed by the final removal of the record of sins in the heavenly books. But before the records are finally cleared, they will be examined to determine who through repentance and faith in Christ is entitled to enter His eternal kingdom. The cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary, therefore, involves a work of investigation or judgment29 that fully reflects the nature of the Day of Atonement as a day of judgment.30 This judgment, which ratifies the decision as to who will be saved and who will be lost, must take place before the Second Advent, for at that time Christ returns with His reward "'to give to every one according to his work'" (Rev. 22:12). Then, also, Satan's accusations will be answered (cf. Rev. 12:10).

Please explain this to me. As I see it, it means there's a record of sins written down in the 'heavenly books' which must be 'examined to determine' who is saved and then 'removed'.

[John317]

... I found this:

And as during the typical Day of Atonement the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary removed the sins accumulated there, so the heavenly sanctuary is cleansed by the final removal of the record of sins in the heavenly books. But before the records are finally cleared, they will be examined to determine who through repentance and faith in Christ is entitled to enter His eternal kingdom. The cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary, therefore, involves a work of investigation or judgment29 that fully reflects the nature of the Day of Atonement as a day of judgment.30 This judgment, which ratifies the decision as to who will be saved and who will be lost, must take place before the Second Advent, for at that time Christ returns with His reward "'to give to every one according to his work'" (Rev. 22:12). Then, also, Satan's accusations will be answered (cf. Rev. 12:10).

All who have truly repented and by faith claimed the blood of Christ's atoning sacrifice have received pardon. When their names come up in this judgment and they are found clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness, their sins are blotted out and they are accounted worthy of eternal life (Luke 20:35). "'He who overcomes, '" Jesus said, "'shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels'" (Rev. 3:5).

I don't believe God keeps a 'record of sins' in a book, and has to review them. I don't believe that there's a physical place where God has physical books with physical writing in them. I think that's all a metaphor, because God is spirit, He's not sitting in any particular place, He's everywhere, and no-one above anywhere else.

OK, but you are here giving us your opinions, yet the Bible teaches that God the Father is in a particular place and that there's a record of the sins that people commit. However, we don't believe that God the Father Himself personally keeps a record of people's sins.

Here's what the Bible teaches about the judgment that takes place before the return of Christ:

Quote:

Daniel 7:8-14

I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

[9] As I looked,

thrones were placed,

and the Ancient of days took his seat;

his clothing was white as snow,

and the hair of his head like pure wool;

his throne was fiery flames;

its wheels were burning fire.

[10] A stream of fire issued

and came out from before him;

a thousand thousands served him,

and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;

the court sat in judgment,

and the books were opened.

[11] I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. [12] As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

[13] I saw in the night visions,

and behold, with the clouds of heaven

there came one like a son of man,

and he came to the Ancient of Days

and was presented before him.

[14] And to him was given dominion

and glory and a kingdom,

that all peoples, nations, and languages

should serve him;

his dominion is an everlasting dominion,

which shall not pass away,

and his kingdom one

that shall not be destroyed.

You can say this is not a literal portrayal but the Bible doesn't indicate that it is merely metaphorical.

Notice a few points:

1. God's throne has wheels.

2. There are books used in the judgment.

3. The judgment is ready to proceed but does not go forward until the Son of Man arrives.

4. There are many intelligent beings taking part in the heavenly court scene.

5. The judgment takes place while the little-horn power is speaking his "great words."

[BibleOnly]

"I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. "

That's enough to tell me it's not literal, any more than Revelation literally promises I will be turned to stone and used to build a temple. There is a book of Life. I still think this is not a book that God uses to keep track of things, and in that sense may be a metaphor, certainly if there's a book, there's no physical place that a physically bound paper book exists. If there's a record of sins, but God does not keep it, who does ? Where is this record mentioned in the Bible ? I doubt it talks about a list of sins that God reviews.

If God is in a particular place, then there must be places He is not, i.e. everywhere else ?

[John317]

...I also found this:

It is clear, therefore, that the Scriptures present the heavenly sanctuary as a real place (Heb. 8:2, NEB), not a metaphor or abstraction.4 The heavenly sanctuary is the primary dwelling place of God.

The message of the sanctuary was a message of salvation. God used its services to proclaim the gospel (Heb. 4:2).

Hbr 8:1 ¶ Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hbr 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

I don't think this proves that this is not a metaphor, he's using the language of the Hebrews to talk to the Hebrews. It's not wrong, but it does not have to be literal. It's the following through of a type.

Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

This does not mention a tabernacle at all, this verse doesn't remotely prove what the article claims.

The word "true" in Hebrews 8: 2 is translated from the noun, aleethinos, which also means "actual." The "real" tabernacle was not the earthly but is the one in heaven. The earthly tabernacle was merely a shadow, or copy, of what actually exists in heaven and which God showed Moses and which the apostle John saw.

See how its cognate, aleethos, is used in John 4:18:

John 4:18

"For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly [aleethos, "actually"]."

The Bible teaches that the earthly sanctuary was a shadow or symbol of something. Are you going to say that the earthly sanctuary was a symbol of a symbol?

The book of Revelation shows us that the sanctuary of God is real. Revelation 4 and 5 descibes the heavenly sanctuary.

Rev. 11: 19:

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

Rev. 15: 8 says, "And the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished."

Rev. 16:1

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God."

Heaven itself is a very real place, just as real as this earth. Jesus is a real man-- the God-man-- and He is preparing real places for His followers.

John 14:1-4

"Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. [4] And you know the way to where I am going."

[John317]

And as during the typical Day of Atonement the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary removed the sins accumulated there, so the heavenly sanctuary is cleansed by the final removal of the record of sins in the heavenly books. But before the records are finally cleared, they will be examined to determine who through repentance and faith in Christ is entitled to enter His eternal kingdom. The cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary, therefore, involves a work of investigation or judgment29 that fully reflects the nature of the Day of Atonement as a day of judgment.30 This judgment, which ratifies the decision as to who will be saved and who will be lost, must take place before the Second Advent, for at that time Christ returns with His reward "'to give to every one according to his work'" (Rev. 22:12). Then, also, Satan's accusations will be answered (cf. Rev. 12:10).

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Please explain this to me. As I see it, it means there's a record of sins written down in the 'heavenly books' which must be 'examined to determine' who is saved and then 'removed'.

The records are not examined by God for the purpose of determining who is saved or lost. The records are available for examination by the intelligent beings in heaven. God's judgment of his intelligent creatures is open for examination by the entire universe. God does not demand that the universe accept His decisions without close examination of people's lives. When Satan and all the wicked are destroyed, the whole universe will agree that God is right and that He did everything He could to save the lost.

Here's the verdict of the universe:

Rev. 11:16-18:

And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God,

saying,

"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,

who is and who was,

for you have taken your great power

and begun to reign.

The nations raged,

but your wrath came,

and the time for the dead to be judged,

and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,

and those who fear your name,

both small and great,

and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

Rev. 15:3-4

And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and amazing are your deeds,

O Lord God the Almighty!

Just and true are your ways,

O King of the nations!

[4] Who will not fear, O Lord,

and glorify your name?

For you alone are holy.

All nations will come

and worship you,

for your righteous acts have been revealed."

Rev. 16:5

And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say,

"Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was,

for you brought these judgments.

Compare Daniel 7 and 8.

[John317]

"I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. "

That's enough to tell me it's not literal, any more than Revelation literally promises I will be turned to stone and used to build a temple.

The horns are symbols of earthly powers-- real people.

The Bible clearly teaches that those "horns" represent earthly powers and governments, etc.

For instance:

Daniel 8:20, 21:

As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.Daniel And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king.

This fact does not signify that God or God's throne or sanctuary are not real.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that God or God's throne or sanctuary in heaven are symbols.

[John317]

.... There is a book of Life. I still think this is not a book that God uses to keep track of things, and in that sense may be a metaphor, certainly if there's a book, there's no physical place that a physically bound paper book exists. If there's a record of sins, but God does not keep it, who does ? Where is this record mentioned in the Bible ? I doubt it talks about a list of sins that God reviews.

SDAs don't insist that the books are like the books that we have in our libraries. The point is that there is a record of people's lives, and this record of our lives is examined.

The record could be like a computer or a film or something we have no concept of.

The angels of God keep a record of our lives.

Rev. 20:12

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Daniel 7 clearly teaches that there are books involved in the judgment:

Daniel 7:10

A stream of fire issued

and came out from before him;

a thousand thousands served him,

and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;

the court sat in judgment,

and the books were opened.

Eccles. 12:13-14

[13] The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

All of the above is very good evidence that there's a record kept of our lives-- both of the good and of the evil, including our "secret things." Also included are whether we have been forgiven of those sins and whether we have overcome them by God's grace.

It must be emphasized here-- because of people's tendency to misunderstand-- that no one earns God's favor by good works. Rather, the good works are examined and considered because of what they show about our love for Christ and the genuineness of our conversion.

There's a big difference between "works of the law" and "works of faith." Works of faith don't earn merit but they do show whether we are true followers of Jesus Christ. The Investigative Judgment shows [not to God but to other intelligent beings] the difference between the true and the false.

[phkrause]

John very good posts and good points, I totally agree. It amaze's me that people would rather accept what others have to say about EGW, and reject her outright, astounding. And also they would have to reject the investigation that was done into her writings and have actually found all the other accusations to be false.

[John317]

That's very true, pk.

It isn't news to informed SDAs that Ellen White used writings from other people. She didn't merely copy those writings, but she changed them in order to express what God had shown her in vision. She never tried to hide the fact that she sometimes used other people's writings. She recommended those same books to her family and friends, and the church paper advertized them. She wrote in the Introduction to Great Controversy that she used the writings of other people, but they weren't used as authorities. Her work has been closely examined by attorneys specializing in copyright law, and they have concluded that Ellen White did nothing either unethical or illegal in her use of other people's writings.

What many people are unaware of is that the writers she "copied" also copied from other writers. It was common in her day, and it wasn't considered wrong or illegal.

Mark, Matthew and Luke also "copied" each other's writings.

No doubt Moses also "copied" some ancient documents, and we know that the book of Proverbs uses some of the ancient proverbs of Egypt-- all without giving those sources credit.

Having said that, though, there's no doubt that both Ellen White and Moses, Matthew, Mark and Luke would all have done differently if they had been writing in our day and under our legal system.

[BibleOnly]

I don't think it matters that EW copied what other people wrote, if she's a person who helps us understand the Bible. I do think it matters a lot, if she is claimed to a prophet with a special and unique vision from God. But, I don't really care about that, I don't think EW was a special prophet because I don't think they exist today. I would not therefore reject everything she writes to be obtuse. It would be odd in fact for her to write at length about the Bible and be wrong EVERY time.

The meaning of the word 'true' in Hebrews is:

1) that which has not only the name and resemblance, but the real nature corresponding to the name, in every respect corresponding to the idea signified by the name, real, true genuine

a) opposite to what is fictitious, counterfeit, imaginary, simulated or pretended

it contrasts realities with their semblances

c) opposite to what is imperfect defective, frail, uncertain

2) true, veracious, sincere

The real nature of the tabernacle does not have to be a real edifice in a real place. All of Revelation is word pictures, so I don't think that's a vision that we should take to be literal. I don't believe heaven is a real place, I thought only children believe that, today.

John 14:1-4

"Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. [4] And you know the way to where I am going."

In fact, Jesus prepared a 'place' for us when He went, by making it possible for us to receive the Holy Spirit, and become the temple of God in our own bodies. Those are the rooms that Jesus prepared. Surely you don't think heaven is a house in which we each get our own room ?

Let's focus on you showing me that heaven is a physical place, with a physical location in the universe. Why does Jesus come to restore Israel and set up the new Jerusalem here on earth if we all belong in a place called Heaven that is somewhere in space ?

[Lysimachus]

For the record, whether the judgement in heaven and the books being opened is literal or not, bears no weight on the principle. I believe there was/is a literal ceremony, but even if it was spiritual, the meaning for our lives is still the same.

Things are portrayed in a way for our benefit, and for the benefit of all the onlooking universe.

1 Cor 4:9 - "For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men."

[BibleOnly]

On this front, what I'm seeing is an old testament principle being applied to assume the books were 'opened in heaven', despite nothing really changing here on earth. That is, there's no actual proof that anything happened in 1844, beyond reading the bible and believing that it did, right ?

[Lysimachus]

There is definitely a literal Jerusalem in heaven:

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

If there were no buildings and rooms in heaven, it would be silly. Imagine ghosts floating around in space, smiling at each other.

No. Jerusalem in heaven is just as literal as the earth is literal. God made a literal earth. God has a literal city. The New Jerusalem. Just like there is a literal New Jerusalem, there is a literal temple in heaven. It is a MASSIVE temple, with a real Ark of the Covenant.

Ellen White went in vision, and saw all the physical items, just like John did.

There is no reason to believe all these items are spiritual symbols. They are literal items that are symbols, but there is no such thing as a symbol of a symbol. That is ridiculous.

The literal temple in heaven mirrors the spiritual temple on earth, and vice versa.

Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.

That is clearly literal.

If it is all spiritual, and there are no literal rooms or literal buildings, then we would have to conclude that God is not sitting on a literal throne either. It's all mystical, where God is floating around too, and nothing can be seen, as nothing is literal. Even the angels are spiritual and not literal then.

When you start mysticizing scriptures like this, it turns into Augustinian/Origen Idealism. This grotesque spiritualization takes away the meaning of scriptures.

Then you have the opposite problem, called "literalism".

We do not spiritualize, and we do not literalize. We take things literal, and apply symbols where they belong.

[Lysimachus]

On this front, what I'm seeing is an old testament principle being applied to assume the books were 'opened in heaven', despite nothing really changing here on earth. That is, there's no actual proof that anything happened in 1844, beyond reading the bible and believing that it did, right ?

Daniel 7 proves something happened in heaven.

Daniel 8 gives the time period when this event transpires in heaven.

Math puts it in in 1844.

Coincidence that the world experience the greatest disappointment known to man?

The entire New Testament Church was built on a massive disappointment---the apostles thought Jesus was coming to establish an earthly reign. They got the timing right, but they did not understand the nature of His coming.

Christ let the crowds believe he was going to setup his earthly throne by riding on a donkey---that was what kings did when they were going to establish an earthly throne. It was inquired of Jesus why he lets them sing, and Jesus said that if they were to be quiet, the stones would cry out.

The disciples were so disappointed when Christ was crucified. They thought for sure he'd deliver himself.

He was not about to establish an earthly literal throne, however. He was about to ascend to heaven and sit on the literal heavenly throne, and commence His ministration as High Priest in the Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary.

Similarly, a massive disappointment ensued revolving Christ's second phase. They got the date right, but hundreds of thousands were disappointed, as Christ did not "come to the earth", but he "came to the Ancient of Days".

[Lysimachus]

Bible also talks about the Garden of Eden and the "Tree of Life". We all believe this tree of life to be literal.

Scriptures talk about a "Tree of Life" in the New Jerusalem.

If the New Jerusalem were symbolic, and not literal, then this tree would be symbolic as well. What is God doing making a literal Tree of Life on earth, but is only symbolic in heaven?

Makes no sense.

I believe it makes the most sense that the Tree of Life in heaven was the same one that was on earth. But God removed the Garden of Eden from the earth before He destroyed it by a flood, and took it to heaven.

[John317]

I do think it matters a lot, if she is claimed to a prophet with a special and unique vision from God. But, I don't really care about that, I don't think EW was a special prophet because I don't think they exist today.

Ellen White did in fact claim many times that God showed her visions and dreams. Those who've closely studied her life have estimated that between 1844 and her death in 1915, Ellen White received about 2,000 visions and dreams. Many people witnessed her during the times she was in vision, and this includes doctors, who examined her and determined that she wasn't breathing.

Here are some of her statements in vol. 1 of Selected Messages regarding the subject of her ministry as a prophet:

Quote:

Some have stumbled over the fact that I said I did not prophet; [REFERENCE IS HERE MADE TO A DISCOURSE GIVEN AT BATTLE CREEK, OCTOBER 2, 1904, IN WHICH SHE SAID, "I DO NOT CLAIM TO BE A PROPHETESS."--COMPILERS.] and they have asked, Why is this? {1SM 31.5}

I have had no claims to make, only that I am instructed that I am the Lord's messenger; that He called me in my youth to be His messenger, to receive His word, and to give a clear and decided message in the name of the Lord Jesus. {1SM 32.1}

Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the Lord's messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title. My Saviour declared me to be His messenger. "Your work," He instructed me, "is to bear My word. Strange things will arise, and in your youth I set you apart to bear the message to the erring ones, to carry the word before unbelievers, and with pen and voice to reprove from the Word actions that are not right. Exhort from the Word. I will make My Word open to you. It shall not be as a strange language. In the true eloquence of simplicity, with voice and pen, the messages that I give shall be heard from one who has never learned in the schools. My Spirit and My power shall be with you. {1SM 32.2}

"Be not afraid of man, for My shield shall protect you. It is not you that speaketh: it is the Lord that giveth the messages of warning and reproof. Never deviate from the truth under any circumstances. Give the light I shall give you. The messages for these last days shall be written in books, and shall stand immortalized, to testify against those who have once rejoiced in the light, but who have been led to give it up because of the seductive influences of evil." {1SM 32.3}

Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word "prophet" signifies. {1SM 32.4}

When this work was first given me, I begged the Lord to lay the burden on someone else. The work was so large and broad and deep that I feared I could not do it. But by

33

His Holy Spirit the Lord has enabled me to perform the work which He gave me to do. {1SM 32.5}

A Work of Many Features

God has made plain to me the various ways in which He would use me to carry forward a special work. Visions have been given me, with the promise, "If you deliver the messages faithfully and endure to the end, you shall eat of the fruit of the tree of life, and drink of the water of the river of life." {1SM 33.1}

The Lord gave me great light on health reform. In connection with my husband, I was to be a medical missionary worker. I was to set an example to the church by taking the sick to my home and caring for them. This I have done, giving the women and children vigorous treatment. I was also to speak on the subject of Christian temperance, as the Lord's appointed messenger. I engaged heartily in this work, and spoke to large assemblies on temperance in its broadest and truest sense. {1SM 33.2}

I was instructed that I must ever urge upon those who profess to believe the truth, the necessity of practicing the truth. This means sanctification, and sanctification means the culture and training of every capability for the Lord's service. {1SM 33.3}

I was charged not to neglect or pass by those who were being wronged. I was specially charged to protest against any arbitrary or overbearing action toward the ministers of the gospel by those having official authority. Disagreeable though the duty may be, I am to reprove the oppressor, and plead for justice. I am to present the necessity of maintaining justice and equity in all our institutions. {1SM 33.4}

If I see those in positions of trust neglecting aged ministers, I am to present the matter to those whose duty it is to care for them. Ministers who have faithfully done their work are not to be forgotten or neglected when they have become feeble in health. Our conferences are not to disregard the needs of those who have borne the burdens of the work. It was after John had grown old in the service of the Lord that he was exiled to Patmos. And on that

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lonely isle he received more communications from heaven than he had received during the rest of his lifetime. {1SM 33.5}

After my marriage I was instructed that I must show a special interest in motherless and fatherless children, taking some under my own charge for a time, and then finding homes for them. Thus I would be giving others an example of what they could do. {1SM 34.1}

Although called to travel often, and having much writing to do, I have taken children of three and five years of age, and have cared for them, educated them, and trained them for responsible positions. I have taken into my home from time to time boys from ten to sixteen years of age, giving them motherly care, and a training for service. I have felt it my duty to bring before our people that work for which those in every church should feel a responsibility. {1SM 34.2}

While in Australia I carried on this same line of work, taking into my home orphan children, who were in danger of being exposed to temptations that might cause the loss of their souls. {1SM 34.3}

In Australia we [REFERENCE HERE IS TO HER ASSOCIATE WORKERS. JAMES WHITE DIED IN 1881.] also worked as Christian medical missionaries. At times I made my home in Cooranbong an asylum for the sick and afflicted. My secretary, who had received a training in the Battle Creek Sanitarium, stood by my side, and did the work of a missionary nurse. No charge was made for her services, and we won the confidence of the people by the interest that we manifested in the sick and suffering. After a time the Health Retreat at Cooranbong was built, and then we were relieved of this burden. {1SM 34.4}

No Boastful Claims

To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I cannot call myself other than a messenger, sent to bear a message from the Lord to His people, and to take up work in any line that He points out.

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{1SM 34.5}

When I was last in Battle Creek, I said before a large congregation that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Twice I referred to this matter, intending each time to make the statement, "I do not claim to be a prophetess." If I spoke otherwise than this, let all now understand that what I had in mind to say was that I do not claim the title of prophet or prophetess. {1SM 35.1}

I understood that some were anxious to know if Mrs. White still held the same views that she did years ago when they had heard her speak in the sanitarium grove, in the Tabernacle, and at the camp meetings held in the suburbs of Battle Creek. I assured them that the message she bears today is the same that she has borne during the sixty years of her public ministry. She has the same service to do for the Master that was laid upon her in her girlhood. She receives lessons from the same Instructor. The directions given her are, "Make known to others what I have revealed to you. Write out the messages that I give you, that the people may have them." This is what she has endeavored to do. {1SM 35.2}

I have written many books, and they have been given a wide circulation. Of myself I could not have brought out the truth in these books, but the Lord has given me the help of His Holy Spirit. These books, giving the instruction that the Lord has given me during the past sixty years, contain light from heaven, and will bear the test of investigation. {1SM 35.3}

At the age of seventy-eight I am still toiling. We are all in the hands of the Lord. I trust in Him; for I know that he will never leave nor forsake those who put their trust in Him. I have committed myself to His keeping. {1SM 35.4}

"And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry" (1 Timothy 1:12).--The Review and Herald, July 26, 1906. {1SM 35.5}

The Work of a Prophet and More

During the discourse, I said that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Some were surprised at this statement, and as

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much is being said in regard to it, I will make an explanation. Others have called me a prophetess, but I have never assumed that title. I have not felt that it was my duty thus to designate myself. Those who boldly assume that they are prophets in this our day are often a reproach to the cause of Christ. {1SM 35.6}

My work includes much more than this name signifies. I regard myself as a messenger, entrusted by the Lord with messages for His people.--Letter 55, 1905. {1SM 36.1}

I am now instructed that I am not to be hindered in my work by those who engage in suppositions regarding its nature, whose minds are struggling with so many intricate problems connected with the supposed work of a prophet. My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there. It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend.--Letter 244, 1906. (Addressed to elders of Battle Creek church.) {1SM 36.2}

Receiving and Imparting the Light

As inquiries are frequently made as to my state in vision, and after I come out, I would say that when the Lord sees fit to give a vision, I am taken into the presence of Jesus and angels, and am entirely lost to earthly things. I can see no farther than the angel directs me. My attention is often directed to scenes transpiring upon earth. {1SM 36.3}

At times I am carried far ahead into the future and shown what is to take place. Then again I am shown things as they have occurred in the past. After I come out of vision I do not at once remember all that I have seen, and the matter is not so clear before me until I write, then the scene rises before me as was presented in vision, and I can write with freedom. Sometimes the things which I have seen are hid from me after I come out of vision, and I cannot call them to mind until I am brought before a company where that vision applies, then the things which I have seen come to my mind with force. I am just as dependent upon the Spirit of the Lord in relating or writing a vision, as in having the vision. It is impossible for me to

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call up things which have been shown me unless the Lord brings them before me at the time that He is pleased to have me relate or write them.--Spiritual Gifts (1860), vol. 2, pp. 292, 293. {1SM 36.4}

Although I am as dependent upon the Spirit of the Lord in writing my views as I am in receiving them, yet the words I employ in describing what I have seen are my own, unless they be those spoken to me by an angel, which I always enclose in marks of quotation.--The Review and Herald, Oct. 8, 1867. {1SM 37.1}

The question is asked, How does Sister White know in regard to the matters of which she speaks so decidedly, as if she had authority to say these things? I speak thus because they flash upon my mind when in perplexity like lightning out of a dark cloud in the fury of a storm. Some scenes presented before me years ago have not been retained in my memory, but when the instruction then given is needed, sometimes even when I am standing before the people, the remembrance comes sharp and clear, like a flash of lightning, bringing to mind distinctly that particular instruction. At such times I cannot refrain from saying the things that flash into my mind, not because I have had a new vision, but because that which was presented to me perhaps years in the past has been recalled to my mind forcibly.--The Writing and Sending Out of the Testimonies, p. 24. {1SM 37.2}

No Claim to Infallibility

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed.--The Review and Herald, July 26, 1892. {1SM 37.3}

In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in Him is no variableness, or shadow of turning.--Letter 10, 1895.

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{1 Selected Messanges 37.4}

[BibleOnly]

I'm sorry, I have nothing to say to that, which might not appear insulting.

The core issue appears always to be that Ellen White overrides common sense. Do you believe that masturbation causes insanity ? She did. Do you believe that viruses are the primary cause of cancer ? She did.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

On this front, what I'm seeing is an old testament principle being applied to assume the books were 'opened in heaven', despite nothing really changing here on earth. That is, there's no actual proof that anything happened in 1844, beyond reading the bible and believing that it did, right ?

Daniel 7 proves something happened in heaven.

Daniel 8 gives the time period when this event transpires in heaven.

Math puts it in in 1844.

Coincidence that the world experience the greatest disappointment known to man?

I'm sorry, but this is insane. First of all, I suspect the death of Princess Diana created a more worldwide 'disappointment', but your logic is ridiculous.

Here's what you claim

1 - some people applied math to some passages in the Bible

2 - they concluded Jesus would visibly return in 1844

3 - He did not

4 - the fact that people were greatly disappointed proves that the maths was correct

See how that's a circular argument ?