miz3 Posted December 24, 2011 Posted December 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Look again Lysimachus. You said Miz3 and Miz3 is not who you quoted. Are you all right? My bad miz3, my apologies! Just a slip of the eye. Fixed. It happens.
BibleOnly Posted December 24, 2011 Author Posted December 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly I'm sorry, but this is insane. First of all, I suspect the death of Princess Diana created a more worldwide 'disappointment', but your logic is ridiculous. Here's what you claim 1 - some people applied math to some passages in the Bible 2 - they concluded Jesus would visibly return in 1844 3 - He did not 4 - the fact that people were greatly disappointed proves that the maths was correct See how that's a circular argument ? I would propose this is not insane, BibleOnly. 1. It was not "some" that applied the math to these passages in the Bible, it was MANY, all over the world. Sound exegesis proves that the "mareh" vision of Dan 9:20-23, 24-27 is the SAME "mareh" vision of Dan 8:26,27, but picking up where it left off. The "mareh" of the "evening and morning" is referring to the "2300 evening-mornings" of verse 14. It's not hard to put two and two together. 2. Yes, they concluded He would visibly return to the earth, but why? Because they thought the earth was the sanctuary that was going to be "cleansed" by fire, not realizing that there was a "heavenly sanctuary" that needed cleansing (Heb 9:23). This disappointment was no different than the Disciples (as well as all the Jewish crowds) thinking that Jesus was going to come and establish an earthly throne. Christ's Church was built on a massive disappointment. 3. He did not come to the earth, but He came to the Ancient of Days--this was not understood until after October 22, 1844. Ellen White, in vision, was shown exactly what transpired in heaven--and her vision had confirmed what Hiram Edson and Crosier had already concluded. The world-wide disappointment and commotion that enveloped the world was a "reflection" of something big happening in heaven. 4. I never said that the fact that people were disappointed proves the math to be correct. The math was correct before the disappointment, as well as after. It lands in 1844. We could argue about the math, and I guarantee you that you will lose. I've debated the staunchest opponents to the math, and they always fall flat on their face. October 22, 1844 is unmovable, it has been tried, tested, assailed, and it has withstood all scrutiny, inside and out, through and through (pickle-publishing.com for example). People being disappointed does not prove the math was correct, but what happened in 1844 "confirms" that something big was happening in heaven in that year. Whether something happened on earth or not, the math does not lie. But you miss the point. People were disappointed PRECISELY because people did the math. So, your proof is not that lots of people were disappointed, although you said it was. Your proof was entirely in if the math is correct.
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2011 Moderators Posted December 24, 2011 Your interpretation. Not the Bible's Interpretation. Too many assumptions for one. Your private interpretations, miz3. You're the one who's making too many assumptions. All you have done is make claims, but you don't support your claims with evidence that what Lysimachus posted here is wrong. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 24, 2011 Author Posted December 24, 2011 Thanks, Richard. Very good to see you, too. Merry Christmas! I go in to the hospital Dec. 28 and will be there for about 4-5 days. Am having a cancerous tumor removed from a kidney. Doctor says it is quite small so it hasn't spread at all. Very sorry to hear that, you'll be in my prayers.
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2011 Moderators Posted December 24, 2011 Thank you, BibleOnly. :-) I hope and pray you have a wonderful Christmas. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted December 24, 2011 Posted December 24, 2011 [quote name='miz3Your interpretation. Not the Bible's Interpretation. Too many assumptions for one. Your private interpretations' date=' miz3. You're the one who making too many assumptions. All you have done is make claims, but you don't support your claims with evidence that what Lysimachus posts is wrong. [/quote'] It has been shown that the IJ is not in the Bible. The Bible does not say that angels and unfallen creatures had doubts about God and His Kingdom. If I am wrong in this, please give Book, Chapter and verse. The Bible does not list satan's grievances against God (like being unfair, secretive, etc.). If I am wrong in this, please give Book, Chapter and verse. I am looking for your Bible evidence.
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2011 Moderators Posted December 24, 2011 The Bible does not list satan's grievances against God (like being unfair, secretive, etc.). If I am wrong in this, please give Book, Chapter and verse. So, then, you believe Satan and the other fallen angels have no grievances against God? Do you suppose they think God is fair? They make no accusations, even though Satan's name means the Accuser? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2011 Moderators Posted December 24, 2011 The Bible does not say that angels and unfallen creatures had doubts about God and His Kingdom. If I am wrong in this, please give Book, Chapter and verse. You don't think the angels and unfallen creatures have questions about how God deals with the Rebellion and with their former friends? Actually, at this time, the only beings that SDAs say have doubts about God are humans. The angels and other unfallen creatures had their eyes opened when Satan inspired people to kill the Son of God. They know God is right but they are still learning about God's wisdom and love by the way God is dealing with the Emergency in His universe. Does this contradict the Bible? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted December 24, 2011 Posted December 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 The Bible does not list satan's grievances against God (like being unfair, secretive, etc.). If I am wrong in this, please give Book, Chapter and verse. So, then, you believe Satan and the other fallen angels have no grievances against God? Do you suppose they think God is fair? They make no accusations, even though Satan's name means the Accuser? If these accusations exist then show them. Book, Chapter, and verse please. If the angels and the unfallen beings had "doubts" show us what those doubts were/are that would necessitate an IJ. Book, Chapter, and verse please.
BibleOnly Posted December 24, 2011 Author Posted December 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 The Bible does not list satan's grievances against God (like being unfair, secretive, etc.). If I am wrong in this, please give Book, Chapter and verse. So, then, you believe Satan and the other fallen angels have no grievances against God? Do you suppose they think God is fair? They make no accusations, even though Satan's name means the Accuser? I would go so far as to say that if satan does act this way, and the Bible does not say so, then it's not really important one way or the other. What verses indicate that satan is the head of a group of fallen angels ?
miz3 Posted December 24, 2011 Posted December 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 The Bible does not say that angels and unfallen creatures had doubts about God and His Kingdom. If I am wrong in this, please give Book, Chapter and verse. You don't think the angels and unfallen creatures have questions about how God deals with the Rebellion and with their former friends? Actually, at this time, the only beings that SDAs say have doubts about God are humans. The angels and other unfallen creatures had their eyes opened when Satan inspired people to kill the Son of God. They know God is right but they are still learning about God's wisdom and love by the way God is dealing with the Emergency in His universe. Does this contradict the Bible? You all said, "that the books were opened so that the angels and the unfallen beings could have their doubts and questions about God and His Government answered". Now again I ask you to show us, Book, Chapter, and verse where it says that these beings had doubts and questions that needed to be answered. If as you say above they are fully satisfied as of the Cross then there is no reason for an IJ in order to satisfy them. That means there is no reason for an IJ Period.
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2011 Moderators Posted December 24, 2011 What verses indicate that satan is the head of a group of fallen angels ? You don't believe Satan is the leader of the fallen angels? Notice: Rev. 12:4-9 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. [5] She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, [6] and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. [7] Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. [9] And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world— he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Notice the fallen angels are referred to as Satan's angels. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 24, 2011 Author Posted December 24, 2011 The reason is still lost on me, so I'm interested to know what it is. We've established that God knows who is saved. so, He's not having to work it out. Is there any other time in the Bible that God prophesied an event that was not visible to the human eye ? For what purpose ?
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2011 Moderators Posted December 24, 2011 We've established that God knows who is saved. so, He's not having to work it out. That was never in doubt. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 24, 2011 Author Posted December 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly What verses indicate that satan is the head of a group of fallen angels ? You don't believe Satan is the leader of the fallen angels? Notice: Rev. 12:4-9 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. [5] She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, [6] and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. [7] Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. [9] And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world— he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Notice the fallen angels are referred to as Satan's angels. I guess the question really is, what do you take this to mean ? What do you think an angel is ? What do you think this means in terms of the position satan is in ?
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2011 Moderators Posted December 24, 2011 I guess the question really is, what do you take this to mean ? What do you think an angel is ? What do you think this means in terms of the position satan is in ? What do you believe the Bible teaches about these things? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2011 Moderators Posted December 24, 2011 Is there any other time in the Bible that God prophesied an event that was not visible to the human eye ? For what purpose ? Yes. Revelation 4 and 5 and other parts of the same book as well as Daniel prophesied things that happen in heaven, hidden from human eyes. The purpose is to let us know what is happening in heaven. There's a close connection between what occurs in heaven and on earth, especially as regards the people of God. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 24, 2011 Author Posted December 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly I guess the question really is, what do you take this to mean ? What do you think an angel is ? What do you think this means in terms of the position satan is in ? What do you believe the Bible teaches about these things? The devil has no power to overcome God, and can't do anything without His permission. That's why I reject that the devil could answer me when I called on God. An angel is a messenger, not a winged creature with super powers. The devil is not the opposite of God, he doesn't have the ability to create things, his only power is to make people believe lies, which is impressive only insofar as God cannot lie.
BibleOnly Posted December 24, 2011 Author Posted December 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly Is there any other time in the Bible that God prophesied an event that was not visible to the human eye ? For what purpose ? Yes. Revelation 4 and 5 and other parts of the same book as well as Daniel prophesied things that happen in heaven, hidden from human eyes. The purpose is to let us know what is happening in heaven. There's a close connection between what occurs in heaven and on earth, especially as regards the people of God. OK then. How did the Christian message change in 1844 ? How did the lives of the Christians who were Christians before 1844, change as a result of what happened in heaven ?
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2011 Moderators Posted December 24, 2011 The devil has no power to overcome God, and can't do anything without His permission. Naturally. SDAs don't beleive any differently. Satan is already a defeated foe. He depends on God to keep him alive. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 24, 2011 Author Posted December 24, 2011 Then why do various SDAs here claim that when I asked God to save my soul, the devil answered me with physical evidence ?
Lysimachus Posted December 24, 2011 Posted December 24, 2011 Then why do various SDAs here claim that when I asked God to save my soul, the devil answered me with physical evidence ? We're not doubting your sincerity. Only God knows the answer to this question, but we can only be guided by the Word of God. It's not like God isn't more powerful than the Devil. Despite the onslaught of the Devil during the transformation of your life, we can still conclude that God is the victor, if we so let Him be the victor. After all, God ended up bringing you here. Have you thought maybe this might be yet another victory over the Devil? Are you going to nullify what is happening here? ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
BibleOnly Posted December 24, 2011 Author Posted December 24, 2011 I'm not sure how any of this nullifies the fact that your claim is that God did not answer me, until the precise moment that He allowed the devil to answer me. It's not like I'd not asked Him sincerely before. Why did He wait for the PRECISE moment when the devil also gave me something ?
BibleOnly Posted December 24, 2011 Author Posted December 24, 2011 I would just add this verse, Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Yes, but who is being judged here ? Rev 20 is after the saints have risen to be with Jesus, this is the judgement, according to works, of the unsaved.
BibleOnly Posted December 24, 2011 Author Posted December 24, 2011 You sure have some strange philosophy BibleOnly. God doesn't need to garden. All he has to do is speak, and it will take care of itself. Of course God does not need people to eat from a tree to maintain eternal life. But God has chosen it to be this way. God chose that when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, life would be taken from them. Not because the fruit itself did it, but because God made it happen that way. It was a test. God's word is explicit: Revelation: "22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." This is both symbolic and literal at the same time. There is a literal tree, and we will literally eat from it, just like Adam and Eve literally ate from the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. The tree also represents Christ that gives life. There is full of rich meaning, yet the literal represents spiritual principles. My sole point would be, it's not going to be a 6000 year old tree that God has been tending this whole time. I think it's not entirely literal - how will the leaves of an actual tree be 'for the healing of the nations' ? But, I don't care, all I am sure of is, it's not the same tree ( which is not recorded as having 12 types of fruit or 'healing leaves' in the OT ). It's a tying together of concepts, if that extends to a physical tree or not.
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