1844

[BobRyan]

For John317, Lysmachus, and anyone else who can.

Here are the questions again, so you won't lose track of what to answer.

1. List the grievances satan has against God and Jesus Christ. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

2. Where in the Bible does it say the angels and the unfallen beings had doubts about God and Jesus Christ and thus, the Investigative Judgment was intended to answer their questions and doubts. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

[BobRyan]

OK, I give up. What happened in heaven in 1844. Is there any evidence for it beyond a failed prediction by the early SDA ?

As was already pointed out - no SDAs predicted a 2nd coming in 1844. Rather the SDA church came into being specifically out of the realization that in 1844 the literal, physical coming of Christ to the Ancient of Days in the Most Holy Place (as predicted by Daniel 7) had occurred. And that this event in heaven would have to take place before the literal 2nd coming of Christ on earth.

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

OK, I give up. What happened in heaven in 1844. Is there any evidence for it beyond a failed prediction by the early SDA ?

As was already pointed out - no SDAs predicted a 2nd coming in 1844. Rather the SDA church came into being specifically out of the realization that in 1844 the literal, physical coming of Christ to the Ancient of Days in the Most Holy Place (as predicted by Daniel 7) had occurred. And that this event in heaven would have to take place before the literal 2nd coming of Christ on earth.

in Christ,

Bob

The stone cut out w/o hands (the KOH as found in Matthew 25:1-13) was set up right on time and if you would check, things happened just as prophesied. Now they are all spiritually sleeping----all except a few as found in Rev. 3:4.

But since all fell asleep, they have no idea that they are the ten virgins right now.

[BibleOnly]

The hallmark of the SDA, as far as I can see, is that people who don't accept what you say right away, are written off, which is interesting. I am kind of discussing in a limbo, in that, as I said above, I intend on spending some time looking at Dan 8 and 9 more closely while I am away over Xmas. But, in the meantime, I do think that the points I've raised are valid - if God made a prophecy, and it's been fulfilled, then the nature of prophecy is such that we should be able to see real evidence that God did what He claimed He would do.

[Lysimachus]

Check out this post I wrote sometime back on this forum BibleOnly:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/461282/Re_70_x_7.html#Post461282

[BibleOnly]

Interesting. My response:

1 - I accept the day/year principle.

2 - I don't accept that 75 people having the same idea proves that it was right, or from God. I'm not saying it wasn't right, either, just that it's not a proof.

3 - You're right, the 70 weeks proves the day/year principle.

My point is more that the evening/morning couplet allows for an interpretation of half the number of years, and also that the core question will be, where did it start, in order to know when it ended. My point is, these are the possible points of contention, not basic mathematics on the assumption that the starting date has been correctly interpreted.

My point was entirely that your 'you can do the math, I checked it' statements are a side issue. The math is not the question, anyone can do math.

[Lysimachus]

One other question in all of this - people keep saying to me 'if you do the math, this is how it works out, therefore 1844 is significant'. I presume that as we're talking about grade school math ( x + y = z ), there can be no question that the sum works out as explained. what needs to be established really, is the interpretation of the time period ( if it says 2300 evenings and mornings, isn't that 1650 days ? ) and the starting date. Those are the questions, not how to add 2300 to a number. Prophecy IMO is given more for us to see after the fact that God had a plan, that's why, for example, not many recognised Jesus when He came, despite the many prophecies regarding His coming. So, for this prophecy to mean anything, there needs to be visible evidence that it was fulfilled, otherwise it is meaningless. These are the issues that need to be addressed, along with the ones miz3 keeps asking.

First, keep in mind that Miz3's questions have been answered numerous times before you even joined this forum. Just go to the 70x7 thread. ...

Secondly, the 70 Jewish scribes that wrote the Septuagint unanimously recognized the "evening-morning" to be a "day", thus they qualified it by saying "evening-morning days". Meaning, "full days".

Thirdly, the visible evidence was in the reactions of Christians world-wide. It could be visibly scene the disappointment. The power that attended the preachers around the world, and the confessions it brought could be visibly seen everywhere. There was nothing like it. It was the biggest revival and spiritual awakening Christians the world over had ever experience.

Fourthly, please read the following excerpt from some of my research:

Futurists, like Preterists apply the time period of 2300 evenings and mornings in Daniel 8:14 to literal days, or “1150 evening and morning sacrifices” (which ever feels more convenient—as long as it undermines Historicism). A pity to think that both Preterists and Futurists alike adopt this detrimental interpretation of Daniel 8 which originated from the pagan philosopher, Porphyry of Tyre (A.D. 234—c. .305), whose foremost aim was to terminate the advancement of Christianity. In order to try and prove that Daniel was not a prophet, it was Porphyry, according to Jerome and Bishop Thomas Newman, who originated the view that Antiochus was the Little Horn of Daniel 8. Through his pagan attack, He proposed that Daniel was merely a historian, and that he wrote the book of Daniel after the events of Antiochus. Both Futurists and Preterists also deny that the 2300 day period covers more than just the desecrating power of the Little Horn. A close analysis of the Hebrew in Daniel 8 reveals that the 2300 day period encompasses not just the desecrating power of the Little Horn, but also the Ram (Persia), the Goat (Greece), the 4 notable horns (four divisions of Alexander’s empire), AND the Little Horn! With this in mind, it matters not how one wishes to try and make Antiochus fit the Little Horn. The 2300 day period [known as the “mareh”] encompasses the TOTALITY of the vision [chazon] in Daniel 8. This automatically forces the 2300 days to be years, and these 2300 years end in the year 1844.

Also keep in mind that the 70 Jewish scribes who translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek, making the Septuagint, unanimously qualified the “evening-mornings” by using the Greek word “days”—--the term “evening-mornings” was used by Daniel because he was using artistic “sanctuary language” concerning the lamps that burned “always”, or “daily” in the sanctuary (See for example: Exodus 27:20, 21; Leviticus 24:2,3). The Hebrew word for “evening” is EREB, and for “morning”, BOQER. In other words “ereb-boqer”. Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31, all testify that an “evening” (ereb) and a “morning” (boqer) = a day. Dispensationalists have tried to cut this argument down by saying that “evening-morning” represents “evening and morning sacrifices or burnt offerings”, and therefore, since there was a sacrifice or burnt offering in the evening and in the morning, that means we must cut the 2300 in half to 1150 days. Then they try to fit 1150 days into Antiochus IV Epiphanies’ desecration of the Jewish temple. The problem is, according to Maccabees, Antiochus desecrated the temple for exactly 3 years to the day, or 1095 days. Therefore, Antiochus (along with a HOST of other reasons) does not fulfill this prophecy. It’s 55 days off. And finally, ALL temple sacrifices and burnt offerings were NEVER offered from “evening and morning”, but rather “MORNING AND EVENING” (see 1 Chron 16:40; 2 Chron 2:4; 13:11; 31:3; 2 Kings 16:15; and Ezra 3:3) In that order! The fact that Daniel used “evenings and mornings” in Daniel 8:14 is significant, and lends credence to the fact that Daniel meant full days, as a day is from evening to morning, not morning to evening according to Genesis 1. And since 2300 literal days = 6.4 years, and Antiochus only desecrated the temple for 3 years, we have no choice but to apply the 2300 evening-mornings to years, and since the “70 weeks” of Daniel 9:24 are “cut off” from the 2300 years of 8:14, that means the 2300 years end in 1844 if we begin in 457 B.C. I've worked with the math hundreds of times, and it is VERY precise! Not to mention that in Daniel 8, the context demands that the 2300 year period stretch to the “time of the end” [8:17,19]

[BibleOnly]

*grin* you said 'thirdly' twice, which is good, because this counts for nothing:

"Thirdly, the visible evidence was in the reactions of Christians world-wide. It could be visibly scene the disappointment. The power that attended the preachers around the world, and the confessions it brought could be visibly seen everywhere. There was nothing like it. It was the biggest revival and spiritual awakening Christians the world over had ever experience. "

People reacted to predictions of Jesus' returning. They then reacted to those predictions not coming true. This doesn't really prove anything, they reacted to a failed prediction. A nominally Christian populace reacted to 'proof' that they needed to repent or perish. That's a human reaction, it doesn't prove anything really happened.

The other point 3 : I'm willing to consider that 2300 evenings and mornings is 2300 'days'. I don't claim to be a futurist, I most certainly am not, and I know what the term means.

I'm still not sure why you'd 'do the math' hundreds of times, unless it's in discussions like this one, it's basic math. Again, the core question is, did you get the starting date correct ? I'm still looking in to it, so I am not saying I know, but, that's the question, the question is not, what is 2300 years from 457 BC ?

[John317]

1 - I accept the day/year principle.

2 - I don't accept that 75 people having the same idea proves that it was right, or from God. I'm not saying it wasn't right, either, just that it's not a proof.

3 - You're right, the 70 weeks proves the day/year principle.

We're in perfect agreement, then, on those important points.

You may misunderstand us if you think we're claiming that agreement between 75 people is proof that SDAs are right. The important evidence is always in the agreement with Scripture and in the evidence and reasoning that people use as support for their conclusions.

[John317]

...3 - You're right, the 70 weeks proves the day/year principle.

My point is more that the evening/morning couplet allows for an interpretation of half the number of years, and also that the core question will be, where did it start, in order to know when it ended. My point is, these are the possible points of contention, not basic mathematics on the assumption that the starting date has been correctly interpreted.

Are you saying that the 2300 day prophecy could actually be 1150 literal days?

If so, please explain how the day/year principle allows for 1150 literal days?

And even if you make it 1150 days, when was that period fulfilled in history? Certainly not in the time of Antiochus IV.

[BibleOnly]

John 317, to be clear, I am looking in to it all, and I understand how 2300 mornings and evenings *could* be 1150 days. But, I am not saying I know what historical events it was about, not at this point. Just thinking about it. Which everyone always accuses me not of doing, as I recall.... :-)

[John317]

... Again, the core question is, did you get the starting date correct ? I'm still looking in to it, so I am not saying I know, but, that's the question, the question is not, what is 2300 years from 457 BC ?

Yes, the starting date, 457 BC, is correct.

It shows that the Messiah would be anointed in 27 AD, which is indeed exactly what happened, according to Luke 3: 1. It also shows that Christ would be killed in 31 AD, and the end of Jewish probation would occur in 34 AD. All of these things happened as predicted in Daniel 9: 24-27.

The other dates that some have proposed-- 445 BC and 538 BC-- do not fit the prophetic specifications. (See the Harper's Study Bible with comments on Daniel 9 by Herold Lindsell, former editor of Christianity Today.)

This date--457 BC-- is like a stake that God has driven into the ground surely proving beyond any reasonable doubt that the ending date of the 2300 days, 1844, can be absolutely depended upon.

Have you noticed that the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel 8:14 lacks a beginning point? The angel came to Daniel in the 9th chapter and told him to "understand the vision," and then the angel proceeded to tell Daniel when the 2300 day prophecy would commence-- at the beginning of the 70 week prophecy, or when the command was given to "restore and build Jerusalem."

There are many ways of showing the connection between Daniel 8: 14 and Daniel 9: 24-27.

[phkrause]

John 317, to be clear, I am looking in to it all, and I understand how 2300 mornings and evenings *could* be 1150 days. But, I am not saying I know what historical events it was about, not at this point. Just thinking about it. Which everyone always accuses me not of doing, as I recall.... :-)

Well when you keep arguing against it what are people to think? And you keep saying that you are going to look into it, but continue to post and argue without looking into it. Take the time and do as you say. I for one will pray that the HS guides you in your study BibleOnly. Have a great Christmas, God bless.

[John317]

Just thinking about it. Which everyone always accuses me not of doing, as I recall.... :-)

I have never done this, BibleOnly.

I believe you are sincere and open to Bible evidence.

[Lysimachus]

John 317, to be clear, I am looking in to it all, and I understand how 2300 mornings and evenings *could* be 1150 days. But, I am not saying I know what historical events it was about, not at this point. Just thinking about it. Which everyone always accuses me not of doing, as I recall.... :-)

I admire the fact that you choose to tread with caution. If this were being presented to me for the first time as well, I'd be doing the same. So you're on the right track brother!

Perhaps when I have some time, we can go more into details as to how the 2300 commences in 457.

The First step is to prove what year 70 weeks commence. There are 4 commonly postulated dates: 1. 458, 2. 457, 3. 445, 4. 444 BC. Adventists subscribe to the 457 one, but not until enough sweat and sleepless nights by numerous expositors finally narrowed this date down. Now what's left is presenting the data to an inquiring person and proving it.

The Second step is proving that the 70 weeks are a part of the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14.

If this can be proven, then...

The Third step is proving which end of the 2300 the 70 belongs. If it's at the beginning (which we believe there is no other way to look at it), then this means the 2300 commences at the same time the 70 weeks do. 1844 then would be the terminus.

The Fourth step would then be to show what happened in 1844, what its salvific benefits are, and how what happened on earth mirrored or reflected what was happening in heaven.

Most of us fall into one of the following 4 camps:

1. Futurism

2. Preterism

3. Historicist

4. Idealism

Futurism and Preterism recognize the 70 weeks as 490 years, but they literalize the 42 months/time, times, dividing of time of Daniel and Revelation as well as the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14.

Historicists take all these time periods to represent years (at least all Historicists used to, but more modern Historicists that are not SDA don't seem to pay much attention to Dan. 8:14 anymore, ever since the disappointment that is).

Idealists spiritualize and allegorize everything to death. In other words, nothing is literal, everything was just written to teach a good lesson. They do not believe that any historical events are the fulfillment of prophecy. ...

Idealism is a new expanding ideology, and it has even breached Adventism. Many new Adventist theologians are embracing Idealism, unfortunately.

Futurists put most of the prophecies in the yet future, except they are inconsistent when it comes to the 7 churches, as they view the 7 churches as 7 time periods of Church history just like Historicists, but when it comes to the 7 seals suddenly all 7 seals are exclusively in the future 70th week. =/ Historicsts believe the 7 seals transpire throughout history, and that we are right now between the 6th and 7th seals.

Partial Preterists believe most was already fulfilled in the time of Nero and/or Antiochus Epiphanies IV, but there is still some prophecies to be fulfilled just before the end of time. Full-blown Preterists give nothing to the future. It's all past, and this world is only going to keep getting better now.

Both Preterists and Futurists end up creating "gaps", skipping over 1500+ year of history and virtually giving no prophetic significance to the Dark Ages.

Historicists on the other hand recognize much of history as the fulfillment of prophecy through a great interlocking chain spread out over time---they recognize the PAST, the PRESENT, and the FUTURE in one continuous sweep throughout time reaching all the way up to the consummation of all things.

[Lysimachus]

John 317, to be clear, I am looking in to it all, and I understand how 2300 mornings and evenings *could* be 1150 days. But, I am not saying I know what historical events it was about, not at this point. Just thinking about it. Which everyone always accuses me not of doing, as I recall.... :-)

I think you'll enjoy reading this link. It's not too long, but it really breaks it down nicely:

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/jeremiah-films/response-to-video-19.htm

It's short, but very very thorough!

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

... Again, the core question is, did you get the starting date correct ? I'm still looking in to it, so I am not saying I know, but, that's the question, the question is not, what is 2300 years from 457 BC ?

Yes, the starting date, 457 BC, is correct.

It shows that the Messiah would be anointed in 27 AD, which is indeed exactly what happened, according to Luke 3: 1. It also shows that Christ would be killed in 31 AD, and the end of Jewish probation would occur in 34 AD. All of these things happened as predicted in Daniel 9: 24-27.

The other dates that some have proposed-- 445 BC and 538 BC-- do not fit the prophetic specifications. (See the Harper's Study Bible with comments on Daniel 9 by Herold Lindsell, former editor of Christianity Today.)

This date--457 BC-- is like a stake that God has driven into the ground surely proving beyond any reasonable doubt that the ending date of the 2300 days, 1844, can be absolutely depended upon.

Have you noticed that the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel 8:14 lacks a beginning point? The angel came to Daniel in the 9th chapter and told him to "understand the vision," and then the angel proceeded to tell Daniel when the 2300 day prophecy would commence-- at the beginning of the 70 week prophecy, or when the command was given to "restore and build Jerusalem."

There are many ways of showing the connection between Daniel 8: 14 and Daniel 9: 24-27.

I;m sure there are, in your eyes. I am merely not sure, but I am pointing out, saying you 'did the math' is redundant, it's not complex math, it just hinges on your presumed starting date, so THAT is the real question.

[Lysimachus]

BibleOnly,

Just want to be clear on your question...

Are you questioning the 457 B.C. as the starting date for the 70 weeks? Or just the 2300? Or both?

[Lysimachus]

Just so it's clear, if we're talking about the commencing date of 457 for the 70 weeks, then we must look to Ezra 7 and 9:9 for the decree/commandment to build and restore Jerusalem (restore it's polity/governance, etc.).

This is where archaeology comes in. Archaeologists date the 7th year of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C.

[BibleOnly]

I am still not sure myself on what it means, so I am making general comments, but I'd say that both items are up for questioning, at this point. As far as I can see, you're assuming that Daniel 8 and Daniel 9 must have the same starting date. These are questions I am looking to answer, not things I claim to know you are wrong on.

[Lysimachus]

I am still not sure myself on what it means, so I am making general comments, but I'd say that both items are up for questioning, at this point. As far as I can see, you're assuming that Daniel 8 and Daniel 9 must have the same starting date. These are questions I am looking to answer, not things I claim to know you are wrong on.

Ok, thanks you clarifying. You're looking for more evidence showing that the time periods of 8 and 9 are linked.

Proving that 457 B.C. is the starting date for the 70 weeks is relatively easy.

But I will confess that showing how Daniel 8 and 9 are linked and that the 70 are part of the 2300 can be a bit more tricky.

[phkrause]

I;m sure there are, in your eyes. I am merely not sure, but I am pointing out, saying you 'did the math' is redundant, it's not complex math, it just hinges on your presumed starting date, so THAT is the real question.

Sometimes its not, its done backwards. We might know the ending date and have to work back to the starting date.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I;m sure there are, in your eyes. I am merely not sure, but I am pointing out, saying you 'did the math' is redundant, it's not complex math, it just hinges on your presumed starting date, so THAT is the real question.

Sometimes its not, its done backwards. We might know the ending date and have to work back to the starting date.

Surely you didn't know 1844, a year when nothing visible happened, and work backwards, though ? The prophecy really only means something if you can prove both ends of it. Otherwise you just end up saying 'we know the start, so something MUST have happened in 1844', or, we know the year Jesus came, so the start of this prophecy MUST be xxx, although we don't know what happened then.

[Lysimachus]

An interesting, "supplementary" observation: It would seem that if God was saying that in 2300 years then the sanctuary shall be cleansed, obviously the 2300 must be commence when the priesthood began operation in the earthly temple, which was 457 B.C. according to Ezra 7.

What do you think John317? Is that a viable argument?

[Gerr]

Quote:

Surely you didn't know 1844, a year when nothing visible happened, and work backwards, though ? The prophecy really only means something if you can prove both ends of it. Otherwise you just end up saying 'we know the start, so something MUST have happened in 1844', or, we know the year Jesus came, so the start of this prophecy MUST be xxx, although we don't know what happened then.

That doesn't make sense to me at all. If you are given a time frame of 2300 yrs and the beginning is established, how can you not be sure of where it ends? Whether you are aware of anything that happened at the end is beside the point. However, we are not left in the dark what happens at the end. The prophecy said the sanctuary shall be cleansed.