BobRyan Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 Good point Gerry. Job 1 and 2 are the inspired record of events in heaven - as is Daniel 7. They all present judgment topics with non-God participants that happen before the 2nd coming --- where the saints are being evaluated. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
miz3 Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Whatever doubts about God's truthfulness some of the unfallen angels ever had, were probably dispelled when their Commander hanged on the Cross. The Bible does not say this.
miz3 Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 The Bible does engage in the "court of human opinion". That was all I was saying - God being tried in the court of human AND universal opinion! Quote: So such a thing is not Biblical. If it's not biblical, why then does God need to be justified & proved right? He doesn't need to be proved right/justified. Such a concept is not Biblical.
miz3 Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 Good point Gerry. Job 1 and 2 are the inspired record of events in heaven - as is Daniel 7. They all present judgment topics with non-God participants that happen before the 2nd coming --- where the saints are being evaluated. in Christ, Bob You have repeated this failed point before. I find no truth in what you assert. I find only empty claims with out any Biblical backing. I also find your words to be very high in insulting those who do not agree with you and your dislocated words.
BobRyan Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 I am thinking that the "Bible and the Bible only" demonstrates the point of the pre-advent judgment very clearly in Job 1, and Job 2 and Daniel 7. And in the case of Job 1 and 2 - it shows the extent to which "God is proven to be right" in the outcome of the judgment process. Even so - Christ said "By their fruits you shall know them" -- another testable statement but only in a Daniel 7 context. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
miz3 Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 I am thinking that the "Bible and the Bible only" demonstrates the point of the pre-advent judgment very clearly in Job 1, and Job 2 and Daniel 7. And in the case of Job 1 and 2 - it shows the extent to which "God is proven to be right" in the outcome of the judgment process. Even so - Christ said "By their fruits you shall know them" -- another testable statement but only in a Daniel 7 context. in Christ, Bob Your thinking would be wrong. Second you again proved my point.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 30, 2011 Moderators Posted December 30, 2011 Gerry: And for good reason. On the eve of His crucifixion, Jesus had this to say: ESV | ‎Jn 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. ‎‎NASB95 | ‎Jn 12:31 “Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. ‎‎NIV84 | ‎Jn 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. The "prince of this world (Satan) will be driven out," "cast out" from where? Not from this planet because he is still around. So cast out/driven out from where? What does the Bible and the Bible only say? You're a pretty smart guy, where do you think Satan was driven out from? I have not quoted you one passage from EGW. I have given you only the Bible, so why do you keep bringing this strawman?
Moderators Gerr Posted December 30, 2011 Moderators Posted December 30, 2011 He doesn't need to be proved right/justified. Such a concept is not Biblical. If God doesn't need to be justified or proven to be right in His judgments, why then does Paul say: NASB95 | ‎Ro 3:4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, “THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.” And HOW is God to be found true? Is it not by examining the evidence presented in the judgment?
miz3 Posted December 31, 2011 Posted December 31, 2011 Gerry: And for good reason. On the eve of His crucifixion, Jesus had this to say: ESV | ‎Jn 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. ‎‎NASB95 | ‎Jn 12:31 “Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. ‎‎NIV84 | ‎Jn 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. The "prince of this world (Satan) will be driven out," "cast out" from where? Not from this planet because he is still around. So cast out/driven out from where? Originally Posted By: miz What does the Bible and the Bible only say? You're a pretty smart guy, where do you think Satan was driven out from? I have not quoted you one passage from EGW. I have given you only the Bible, so why do you keep bringing this strawman? This is a great question Gerry in regard to John 12:31. The answer is that now satan will be driven out from our human lives because God gave us Jesus Christ to make us Justified before God apart from anything humans could do/have done (see Romans chapter five). Also as Romans chapter eight states we can be "more than conquerors" through Jesus Christ because God/Holy Spirit drives all the evil out (including satan). When Jesus Christ cast out the demons from people on this earth Jesus was fulfilling this very statement He made in John12:31. God/Holy Spirit fulfills this statement of John 12:31 today when He casts out our sins/satan from us and makes us "over comers" as Romans chapter eight states. Thus, those who will be saved will have satan cast out of their lives and will have God/Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit rule their lives instead. This to me is the "Good News"/"Gospel" of Jesus Christ. And it is GOOD NEWS INDEED! Thank you Gerry for giving me this wonderful opportunity to cite for you and others the Good News direct from God. No longer do we have to be slaves of sin/satan. He has been cast out except to those who continue to REJECT GOD'S SALVATION and continue to cling to their slavery to sin/satan. It is this GOOD NEWS that SDA/SDA Church .org should be giving to the whole world. Unfortunately the SDA/SDA Church .org continues to think/give the unBiblical and false news of their "sanctuary/IJ/eschatology which is not the GOOD NEWS of the Bible. You see Gerry no one knows whether we are near to Christ's Second Coming or how near because as the Bible and the Bible only states "no one knows the day or the hour". If we don't know when then how can we know that it is near or far. To say that it is "near" rests only upon Hiram Edson's cornfield explanation. Ellen White endorsed it and like magic the SDA Church .org doctrine of the sanctuary/IJ/eschatology/gospel appears out of no where and it certainly does not appear out the Bible. The FACT is this doctrinal debacle comes right out of a failed prediction regarding the Second Coming of Christ and then an attempt to salvage the whole untruth and magically make what is not something to be something. Only God can take "nothing" and make "something". This is a failed human attempt to take "nothing" and make it "something". It is not based on the Bible and the Bible only. The FACTS of the documented story tell us that this doctrine (twenty-four in the SDA Church .org Fundamentals) came from the human mind(Hiram Edson) and Ellen White ratified it. This history alone debunks the claim that the doctrine is Biblical. In fact it actually demonstrates for all to see that this doctrine is unBiblical and is only the creation of the human mind trying to weasel out of a failed prediction which itself is also unBiblical and not based on correct Biblical Principles. Again Gerry I thank you for asking this great question which gives me the opportunity to share the Truth.
miz3 Posted December 31, 2011 Posted December 31, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 He doesn't need to be proved right/justified. Such a concept is not Biblical. If God doesn't need to be justified or proven to be right in His judgments, why then does Paul say: NASB95 | ‎Ro 3:4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, “THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.” And HOW is God to be found true? Is it not by examining the evidence presented in the judgment? We already answered this question, Gerry. In fact we answered this question using the "whole context of the passage" rather than just citing a single verse and taking its words totally out of the context and the point Paul was trying to make. Paul took the original quote of Psalm 51:4 and used to say something far different than the original text(Psalm 51) was saying. Because Paul is an inspired part of the Canon Paul can do this. Ellen White is NOT PART OF THE INSPIRED CANON and as such, like you and I, she cannot do this. Please Gery go back and read our analysis of this passage which is part of this thread. Please don't quote this text out of context. You must include Paul's context to see what Paul is actually saying. Paul is NOT SAYING WHAT YOU ARE IMPLYING.
Lysimachus Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 Miz3, Why is it so difficult to just take Romans 3:12 as it reads? The context of Romans 3 does not deter whatsoever from the point that God is judged. The verse is plain and simple. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
BobRyan Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 I am thinking that the "Bible and the Bible only" demonstrates the point of the pre-advent judgment very clearly in Job 1, and Job 2 and Daniel 7. And in the case of Job 1 and 2 - it shows the extent to which "God is proven to be right" in the outcome of the judgment process. Even so - Christ said "By their fruits you shall know them" -- another testable statement but only in a Daniel 7 context. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Lysimachus Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 This is a great question Gerry in regard to John 12:31. The answer is that now satan will be driven out from our human lives because God gave us Jesus Christ to make us Justified before God apart from anything humans could do/have done (see Romans chapter five). Also as Romans chapter eight states we can be "more than conquerors" through Jesus Christ because God/Holy Spirit drives all the evil out (including satan). When Jesus Christ cast out the demons from people on this earth Jesus was fulfilling this very statement He made in John12:31. God/Holy Spirit fulfills this statement of John 12:31 today when He casts out our sins/satan from us and makes us "over comers" as Romans chapter eight states. Thus, those who will be saved will have satan cast out of their lives and will have God/Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit rule their lives instead. This to me is the "Good News"/"Gospel" of Jesus Christ. And it is GOOD NEWS INDEED! Thank you Gerry for giving me this wonderful opportunity to cite for you and others the Good News direct from God. No longer do we have to be slaves of sin/satan. He has been cast out except to those who continue to REJECT GOD'S SALVATION and continue to cling to their slavery to sin/satan. It is this GOOD NEWS that SDA/SDA Church .org should be giving to the whole world. Unfortunately the SDA/SDA Church .org continues to think/give the unBiblical and false news of their "sanctuary/IJ/eschatology which is not the GOOD NEWS of the Bible. You see Gerry no one knows whether we are near to Christ's Second Coming or how near because as the Bible and the Bible only states "no one knows the day or the hour". If we don't know when then how can we know that it is near or far. To say that it is "near" rests only upon Hiram Edson's cornfield explanation. Ellen White endorsed it and like magic the SDA Church .org doctrine of the sanctuary/IJ/eschatology/gospel appears out of no where and it certainly does not appear out the Bible. The FACT is this doctrinal debacle comes right out of a failed prediction regarding the Second Coming of Christ and then an attempt to salvage the whole untruth and magically make what is not something to be something. Only God can take "nothing" and make "something". This is a failed human attempt to take "nothing" and make it "something". It is not based on the Bible and the Bible only. The FACTS of the documented story tell us that this doctrine (twenty-four in the SDA Church .org Fundamentals) came from the human mind(Hiram Edson) and Ellen White ratified it. This history alone debunks the claim that the doctrine is Biblical. In fact it actually demonstrates for all to see that this doctrine is unBiblical and is only the creation of the human mind trying to weasel out of a failed prediction which itself is also unBiblical and not based on correct Biblical Principles. Again Gerry I thank you for asking this great question which gives me the opportunity to share the Truth. The Hiram Edson argument actually favors Adventist doctrine, because then we cannot be accused that we got it from "Ellen White". Critics of Adventism have always accused us of getting our ideas of the Investigative Judgment and that Christ entered into the Most Holy Place in 1844 "from Ellen White", and that it came from no one else. The fact is, Hiram Edson did get it from scriptures. Although he was in a field, he was meditating upon certain scriptures he had remembered in his mind, and suddenly it dawned on him what Luke 12:34 meant - "And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." This prove that the wedding commences prior to Christ's Second Coming, and spells the death-knell against 1. That Christ went straight into the Most Holy Place to commence the Antitypical Day of Atonement at His ascension, and 2. That the Wedding consummates AT the Second Coming. 1844 lines up PRECISELY with this Bible verse, and it makes perfect sense. The wedding is now being consummated, as the Father marry's Christ to His Church. However, with all this said, you I want you to know that you are very wrong with your assessment of Hiram Edson. Did you know that a large portion of these 75 expositors world-wide who believed the 2300 days terminated in 1843/1844/1847 did not believe that the Second Coming would occur at the terminus of this time period? Did you know that? So what did many of them believe? Many of them believed that this time period marked the commencement a "great revival" among God's people, a return to "apostolic times", when God's people would be cleansed and revived in preparation for Christ's soon return! Hiram Edson simply perceived a deeper understand of this, because revival and reformation coincides with Yom Kippur, a cleansing of the people. The Heavenly Sanctuary MIRRORS or REFLECTS what is going on in the earth with God's people. The literal things in heaven mirror the spiritual things on earth and vice versa. If you would like a wonderful sermon on this, I recommend the following: ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
BibleOnly Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 OK, I am back. I've read Dan 8 several times and can't see where it says anything specific to relate to the details of what you're saying. I can see how it could be a jumping point for a description of a time when a process described elsewhere in the Bible might take place, so, where does the Bible explain the IJ in detail ? "The wedding is now being consummated, as the Father marry's Christ to His Church. " Where does the Bible say this ? Christ marries Israel, not the church. Rev 21:9 ¶ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, If this is the church, how can it be married to Christ now ? The dead in Christ rise when He returns, not before. The living in Christ are plainly not yet joined to Him in the eternal sense ? So, where does the Bible explain all of this ?
Moderators Gerr Posted January 2, 2012 Moderators Posted January 2, 2012 He doesn't need to be proved right/justified. Such a concept is not Biblical. It's not enough, miz, just to declare something unbiblical. Again, I ask you - If it's not biblical, why then does God need to be justified & proved right? Isn't that what the psalmist & Paul are saying? Look, you have already admitted that Satan had laid a charge against God, i.e. that He is a liar. Doesn't He have an obligation to clear His name? And how does He do that? The Judgment, the IJ included, will not only clear the saints of Satan's accusations (Rev 12:10, Job 1 & 2), but it will also clear His name from all the lies Satan has charged against Him?
Moderators Gerr Posted January 2, 2012 Moderators Posted January 2, 2012 "The wedding is now being consummated, as the Father marry's Christ to His Church. " Where does the Bible say this ? Christ marries Israel, not the church. So, where does the Bible explain all of this ? Israel & the church are one & the same. The OT church was Israel. The NT church is just a continuation of the same. Book, chapter, & verse? ESV | ‎Ro 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. ESV | ‎Ro 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, ESV | ‎Ga 6:16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. ESV | ‎Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— ‎12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. ‎13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. ESV | ‎Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, ‎20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, ‎21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. ‎22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
BobRyan Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Israel & the church are one & the same. The OT church was Israel. The NT church is just a continuation of the same. Book, chapter, & verse? ESV | ‎Ro 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. ESV | ‎Ro 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, Yes - that makes it clear. Romans 9:8 makes the point that the promises are now applicable to the "Children of the promise" - not the children of the flesh. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Moderators Gerr Posted January 2, 2012 Moderators Posted January 2, 2012 And for good reason. On the eve of His crucifixion, Jesus had this to say: ESV | ‎Jn 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. ‎‎NASB95 | ‎Jn 12:31 “Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. ‎‎NIV84 | ‎Jn 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. The "prince of this world (Satan) will be driven out," "cast out" from where? Not from this planet because he is still around. So cast out/driven out from where? Miz3: What does the Bible and the Bible only say? You're a pretty smart guy, where do you think Satan was driven out from? I have not quoted you one passage from EGW. I have given you only the Bible, so why do you keep bringing this strawman? Miz3: This is a great question Gerry in regard to John 12:31. The answer is that now satan will be driven out from our human lives because God gave us Jesus Christ to make us Justified before God apart from anything humans could do/have done (see Romans chapter five). Also as Romans chapter eight states we can be "more than conquerors" through Jesus Christ because God/Holy Spirit drives all the evil out (including satan). There are two places that I recall that mentions Satan being cast out. (1) KJV 1900 | ‎Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (2) KJV 1900 | ‎Jn 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. Rev 12:9 was a past event in Jesus' time, while Jn 12:31 was future. Therefore, these are not one & the same. Yes, we can begin to cast out the demons from our lives, yes, that's true, but as you can see, the devil is still in this planet. Think about this. Satan/Lucifer may have very well been the highest angel in heaven, next to Michael. As such he must have been loved by the rest of the angels. So I would suggest to you that Satan was also cast out as Jesus hang on the Cross from the hearts of the loyal angels for whatever lingering affections they may have had for him from their previous fellowship with him. They saw him for the liar and murderer and deceiver that he really was.
Lysimachus Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 OK, I am back. I've read Dan 8 several times and can't see where it says anything specific to relate to the details of what you're saying. I can see how it could be a jumping point for a description of a time when a process described elsewhere in the Bible might take place, so, where does the Bible explain the IJ in detail ? ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
BibleOnly Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly "The wedding is now being consummated, as the Father marry's Christ to His Church. " Where does the Bible say this ? Christ marries Israel, not the church. So, where does the Bible explain all of this ? Israel & the church are one & the same. The OT church was Israel. The NT church is just a continuation of the same. Book, chapter, & verse? ESV | ‎Ro 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. ESV | ‎Ro 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, ESV | ‎Ga 6:16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. ESV | ‎Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— ‎12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. ‎13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. ESV | ‎Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, ‎20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, ‎21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. ‎22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. Sorry, this is plain wrong. God did not break His promises to Israel and instead marry the church. In the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, the virgins are not getting married, they are attending the marriage, and they are us. Jesus told the Apostles they would rule and reign over Israel. How could that be, if they, as the church, would BECOME Israel ( I know they were both, but, His statements were about all Christians, not just the 12 ). Lots of scriptures explain this.
BibleOnly Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 Scriptures detail a "future judgment", and Revelation 14 describes this "hour of judgment". Adventists attached the term "Investigative", kind of like other Christians utilize the term "trinity" or "prevenient grace", or "Arminianism", etc. etc., even though these terms are not in the Bible "per say". They are "concepts" derived from scriptures. It is based on understanding the "nature" of the Day of Atonement in the Old Testament with the pre-Advent judgment that occurs before the Second Coming. The term "investigative" is a term added to emphasize the import and nature of this judgment--that it is a "searching" judgment, and a necessary process for the benefit of mankind so that they might prepare themselves and be ready for when the Bridegroom comes out to meet the Bride.
Lysimachus Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Wow, BibleOnly. Looks like we're going to have to take you through a thorough study proving that all the saints go to heaven, not earth, at the Second Coming. And it looks like we're going to have to give you all the verses proving there will be no people on the earth during the millennium. You would save us a lot of time if you would read Adventist materials on this on the web, and ask more pointed questions once you get the basics down. I thought we have been over all of this. I even gave you a link that I wrote on the Millennium, but you probably did not read it. I can see why a lot of your conclusions are based on other layers that have not even been settled. You will find a lot of the answers to your questions on eschatology found here: http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/ ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
BibleOnly Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 I think we should just stop. You believe God is going to break His promises to Israel, Jesus lied about us ruling over Israel, and you think that the millennium is some period of 1000 years where what happens exactly, if everyone on earth is dead, satan is bound ( so he can't deceive dead people ) and we're up in 'heaven' somewhere ? At the core, the main question is, how can you tell that something happened in 1844 ? Prophecy is useless if it explains something that we would otherwise not even know was happening, and as far as I can see, your doctrine is based on some people frantically searching the bible to make up a story to cover a failed prediction. There is no passage that describes the process you're talking about, only a long chain of logic that is predicated on 'something must have happened in 1844'.
Lysimachus Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 I think we should just stop. You believe God is going to break His promises to Israel, Jesus lied about us ruling over Israel, and you think that the millennium is some period of 1000 years where what happens exactly, if everyone on earth is dead, satan is bound ( so he can't deceive dead people ) and we're up in 'heaven' somewhere ? At the core, the main question is, how can you tell that something happened in 1844 ? Prophecy is useless if it explains something that we would otherwise not even know was happening, and as far as I can see, your doctrine is based on some people frantically searching the bible to make up a story to cover a failed prediction. There is no passage that describes the process you're talking about, only a long chain of logic that is predicated on 'something must have happened in 1844'. God did not break his promise to Israel. Israel broke its promise to God. Israel's promises are now realized in the Church. Why do you think Paul says: "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29) and "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Romans 9:8) The promise has not been repealed. The promise to Israel was conditional upon obedience, but that same promise stands to anyone who becomes a part of Israel--the true seed of Abraham. Anyone who accepts Christ Jesus is taking hold of that promise. You are revealing that you are a Dispensationalist after all. A Dispensationalist is anyone who thinks there is a distinction between Israel and the Church, or anyone who thinks that Israel will be saved separately from the Church. This is Jesuit inspired theology. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
BibleOnly Posted January 2, 2012 Author Posted January 2, 2012 God made unconditional promises to Israel. He made some that were conditional, too, but, you're saying He's free to break His Word, and WOULD break His Word, when He made unconditional promises, knowing that Israel would walk away ? I don't care about labels. I am a Biblist. Jesuits invented futurism and Preterism. They did not invent the idea that God does not lie.
Recommended Posts