1844

[Lysimachus]

Gerry,

I think BibleOnly has a point. Much of the reason anything happened in 1844 was because of the knowledge of when the 2300 began.

[Lysimachus]

Another super article:

The Sanctuary and Its Cleansing ~ by Angel Manuel Rodriguez

[BibleOnly]

But Gerry, this is the issue. The 70 weeks, we can demonstrate what happened when it ended, and thus prove that God spoke the truth and that Jesus was who He claimed to be. If you know the start, and nothing happened at the end that you can actually point to and say 'see, it happened', then this prophecy works, in your view, differently to all the other prophecies in the Bible, and to a different purpose.

[BibleOnly]

Lysimachus (Marcos ?), I'll try to get to this, but I am packing to go away for 10 days. So it's possible this will resume when I come back from my vacation.

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus (Marcos ?), I'll try to get to this, but I am packing to go away for 10 days. So it's possible this will resume when I come back from my vacation.

Sounds good BibleOnly. You enjoy your vacation!

Have a Happy New Year! :)

[BobRyan]

The hallmark of the SDA, as far as I can see, is that people who don't accept what you say right away, are written off, which is interesting.

Many SDAs today are from among those who used to ignore the details of Dan 2 and Dan 7,8,9 - but now choose to read, study and accept those details. For them the issue is not to write people off - but rather to work with the fact that God has given to each person free will.

As Christ said in John 16 "I have many MORE things to tell you but you cannot accept them now".

However as we learn in John 16 - those who choose to accept the work of the Holy Spirit - find Him to be the "Spirit of truth" who leads into more truth - rather than confirming them in errors of the past.

in Christ,

Bob

[BibleOnly]

And how do you know that you have the Spirit of Truth in you, Bob ?

[BobRyan]

Jesus said in John 14 "I AM the way the truth and the life".

In John 16 "the Holy Spirit of truth - will guide you into all truth".

Those who choose to accept truth - no matter how it conflicts with man-made traditions are showing the fruits of the Spirit. The Gal 5 fruits of the Spirit are evidence that the Holy Spirit is in you. In fact no one comes to Christ except the Holy Spirit first draws them (John 3) and then fills them creating the "New Birth" where old things pass away and all things become new.

And in that regard - "The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God" -- Rom 8:15-16.

By contrast to the Gal 5 fruits of the Spirit where all saints must have all of the fruits of the Spirit -- we have the 1Cor 12 "Gifts of the Spirit" that NOT all have - and certainly all do not have ALL the gifts. In fact that text points out that ALL do not have tongues just as ALL do not have the gift of prophecy.

in Christ,

Bob

[BibleOnly]

" The Gal 5 fruits of the Spirit are evidence that the Holy Spirit is in you"

Then my atheist grandfather was most certainly saved. And Acts is full of lies, but that doesn't matter.

"And in that regard - "The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God" -- Rom 8:15-16."

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Why did you refer to 15 but not quote it ? How do you call God 'father' in two languages ?

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Do you have any idea what this verse means ?

[BobRyan]

"And in that regard - "The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God" -- Rom 8:15-16."

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Why did you refer to 15 but not quote it ? How do you call God 'father' in two languages ?

The text of Romans 8 was written in Greek (which I do not speak) and the quote of vs 16 includes both Greek and Hebrew (another language I do not speak).

To be hung up on speaking Greek and Hebrew as if this is the point of Romans 8:15-16 where the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God - who walk in obedience to the Law of God - is to miss the point of the entire chapter.

in Christ,

Bob

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

"And in that regard - "The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God" -- Rom 8:15-16."

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Why did you refer to 15 but not quote it ? How do you call God 'father' in two languages ?

The text of Romans 8 was written in Greek (which I do not speak) and the quote of vs 16 includes both Greek and Hebrew (another language I do not speak).

To be hung up on speaking Greek and Hebrew as if this is the point of Romans 8:15-16 where the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God - who walk in obedience to the Law of God - is to miss the point of the entire chapter.

in Christ,

Bob

Abba is in fact Aramaic. That's why it's not translated, the insertion of an Aramaic word obviously was meant to mean something.

Your point is that if someone thinks they have the Spirit, then they must do. That's not really true, no matter how you look at it. Certainly, in Acts 8, it doesn't seem likely that the only way they knew they didn't have the Spirit, is that they knew they didn't. Paul says in 1 Cor that 'the manifestation of the Spirit' is given to everyone. You don't think it's given at all, instead you think it's emotions that every person on earth is capable of having.

[BobRyan]

Abba - originally Aramaic and borrowed into Hebrew. None of which helps with your arguments about the 1Cor 12 gift of tongues NOT given to everyone according to 1Cor 12. (Even though everyone CAN read Rom 8:16)

Christ said in 1Cor 14 that the peace that comes from the Holy Spirit is "not that which the world has to give" - and in Gal 5 the list of the fruits of the Holy Spirit starts not with "tongues" for tongues are NOT given to everyone according to 1Cor 12 - rather the list of the fruits of the Spirit (that are given to everyone who has the Spirit) begins with "Love Joy Peace" -- the peace that the world cannot give.

Your claim above is of the form "that is not good enough".

Ok - well that is a free will choice of yours to make.

Meanwhile 1Cor 12 is clear that just as all are not prophets so all do not speak in tongues.

in Christ,

Bob

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

For John317, Lysmachus, and anyone else who can.

Here are the questions again, so you won't lose track of what to answer.

List the grievances satan has against God and Jesus Christ. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

Book: Revelation Chapter: 12 Verse: 10 He is called "the accuser". What are his accusations?

Book: Genesis Chapter: 2 & 3 Verse: 2:16; 3:1-4

As with any rebellion, there are issues by the rebels whether legitimate or totally unfounded. It takes a little bit of digging to flesh them out. Here are a few.

(1) God is a liar. He does not mean what He says. Book, chapter & verse is Gen 3:1-3. Of one Tree God had this to say: ESV | ‎Ge 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, ‎17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Satan directly contradicted what God said: a) He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” ESV | ‎Ge 3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

MOST of the world still believe these two Satanic lies. God said, "Remember the Sabbath..." and people think He doesn't mean it. He said if you eat the fruit, "you shall surely die." Even most Christians don't believe what God said. They believe instead the devil's lie that they don't really die.

(2)God's created beings serve Him only out of fear or because of the goodies He gives them. ESV | ‎Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? ‎10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. ‎11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.”

(3) A believer/follower of God will sacrifice loyalty to God to save his/her life. ESV | ‎Job 2:4 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.”

(4) Supremacy. Book: Isaiah Chapter: 14 Verse: 12-14

(5) Pride. Book: Ezekiel Chapter: 28 Verse: 14-17

Quote:

2. Where in the Bible does it say the angels and the unfallen beings had doubts about God and Jesus Christ and thus, the Investigative Judgment was intended to answer their questions and doubts. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

Book: Revelation Chapter: 12 Verse: 7-12

"Now war arose in heaven," 12:7. War over what? See the answers to ?#1. The dragon/Satan took with him in his rebellion 1/3 of the angels, 12:4. Now do a little thinking. If he could deceive or persuade 1/3 of the angels, is it unreasonable to think that there were some who developed some doubts or questions about God but did not join in the rebellion?

Quote:

3. Or do you admit that because you said that the angels and unfallen beings no longer have questions and doubts then their is no need of an Investigative Judgment?

Please give Scripture Book, Chapter, and verse and clarification of which way it is.

1. God's truthfulness has to be proven. That people have been dying since A & E ate the fruit proves His truthfulness. The ultimate vindication comes with the eradication of sin & sinners from the universe, Rev 20.

2. Job and many saints have proven Satan wrong that believers serve God out of fear or for the goodies they receive, or that their lives are more important than loyalty to God.

3. Whatever doubts the angels that did not rebel may have had about God was dispelled when the Creator hang on the Cross. Jn 12:31

Much more could be said, but that requires much more time & words that this format does not allow.

Thank you Gerry. At least you tried which is more than others have done to this point.

1. You are correct about Genesis where Satan does indeed call God a liar. You have listed one of satan's grievances/accusations.

However, we do not need an IJ to show that God is not a liar. There is plenty of evidence in the history of the Bible that demonstrates to all beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is not a liar.

Although you listed a legitimate grievance this still does not prove the necessity of an IJ.

Second the Job incident was also settled and needs no IJ to show the Truth about God. Besides the Bible does say something about "fear being the beginning of wisdom" Psalm 111:10.

See also Psalm 2:11; Psalm 19:9; Psalm 25:14; Psalm 33:8.

Third "the skin for skin" issue was also settled back then and needs no IJ in order to know the Truth.

Fourth, Supremacy is not a grievance/accusation.

Fifth, self-Pride is also not a grievance/accusation.

2. Revelation chapter twelve does not show in any way (except in the human imagination) that the unfallen angels had any doubts whatsoever.

You say do a "little thinking". That is precisely the problem. Humans are always putting in the Word their thoughts and thinking. This always leads to "ERROR".

We need to take the Word of God for exactly what it says. When we "add" our thinking/thoughts we are telling God that He did not do a good enough job of explaining Truth and thus He needs our help. I find that position abhorrent.

God did not leave anything out nor does God's Word need any additions and/or corrections from humans.

3. Doesn't you Prophet Ellen White say that the unfallen beings and the angels who were loyal to God finally saw satan and evil for what it was at the Cross.

If this is true then there would be no need for an IJ. There minds are already settled; Or was your Prophet Ellen White wrong in her statement about the Cross.

4. SDA Church .org and their doctrines are full of contradictions and made up stuff because they:

a. Use human additions of human thought.

b. Use their Prophet to interpret the Bible.(in spite of their denials to the contrary).

[Gerr]

4. SDA Church .org and their doctrines are full of contradictions and made up stuff because they:

a. Use human additions of human thought.

b. Use their Prophet to interpret the Bible.(in spite of their denials to the contrary).

It's very easy to make charges or accusations, so please show where any of the 28 SDA fundamental beliefs contradict the Bible or contradict each other. If you can show a more biblically consistent church, let me know so I can join it.

In case you didn't notice, not once did I invoke any extra-biblical sources in my response to your challenge.

BTW, you yourself can do some thinking but I'm supposed to park my brain somewhere when I approach the Bible?

[Lysimachus]

1. You are correct about Genesis where Satan does indeed call God a liar. You have listed one of satan's grievances/accusations.

However, we do not need an IJ to show that God is not a liar. There is plenty of evidence in the history of the Bible that demonstrates to all beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is not a liar.

[Guest]

Amen!

[Kevin H]

Our Investigative Judgment doctrine is not perfect, I'm sure that it has wheat and chaft mixed together. We need to study more the original contexts of the 2300 evenings-mornings (the last 2300 days of Babylon, the last 2300 days of the 70 weeks) seeing what could have happened.

But I find it a very joyful doctrine that I really love. It is related to the issues of the Great Controversy, the gifts that God has given us of being able to study the Bible like never before, the true nature of hell fire. It is a message that we are all in this together, and that God works with all people, we are either developing a friendship with Jesus (as we understand the personal aspect of God) or further in rebellion. Too often the critics of the Investigative Judgment have an attitude of "Say the magic words about Jesus and be saved." I have some close friends and former girlfriends who live in Israel, Japan, Thailand, who are automatically lost by the method of being saved that is critica of the Investigative Judgment, while the Investigative Judgment leaves room for them in heaven. The Investigative Judgment says that God is working with all of us, Christians, Jews, etc. people who may not have said the magic words about Jesus may still be responding positively to the Holy Spirit, and our job is since we are all here together is to encourage each other to continue to grow and to learn more. I don't understand why anyone would want to criticize this joyful doctrine, which was brought to us by the same God who gave us the birth of Jesus and the Resurection. Why do the critics not allow God to continue to do nice things for us? Why do the critics want me to give up a doctrine that gives me a lot of joy and is very freeing?

Note to Miz3: I noticed that while you say that you do not have time to read the works we have recommended, saying you only want to read inspired sources and that archaeologists, linguists, people who studied at say Harvard or teach at Hebrew University etc. are just heathen. However you seem to find a lot of time to read those who are critical of the Investigative Judgment. I'm sorry but I did not realize that Walter Rea and these others were inspired. But they must be since you don't use your excuses for not reading works that support and explain the investigative judgment against not reading them. Or am I misunderstanding your logic as to why you have pleanty of time to read and quote critics of the Investigative Judgment, but that you can't read the other side of the issue?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

1. You are correct about Genesis where Satan does indeed call God a liar. You have listed one of satan's grievances/accusations.

However, we do not need an IJ to show that God is not a liar. There is plenty of evidence in the history of the Bible that demonstrates to all beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is not a liar.

But you are denying that there is indeed a court proceeding nonetheless, whether we may understand why it is transpiring or not. Why is Christ vindicating the saints before the Father than and accusing Satan if Christ is already finished demonstrating Satan as a liar?

What "judgment" is being spoken about in Revelation 14:7?

"He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (Revelation 14:7)

This is long before the Second Coming! 3 more angels haven't come! His Judgment "HAS" comes, not WILL come.

Satan is the one that brings up our problems in the judgment. The judgment does not remove the necessity for the judgment. God knows best. He does it for our benefit. Paul wasn't kidding when he said: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10)

How do we all appear before the judgment seat of God? We appear in the book records! We appear before God in our records! This is a judgment that transpires BEFORE the Second Advent, clearly expressed in Revelation 22:11,12.

Let us remember that the Investigative Judgment is related to the cleansing/blotting out of sins that are now in God's "ball park", not the blotting out of sins from the sinner. The sins are now in a controlled environment where they are now God's problem, not our problem. We were already forgiven, and the sins were already purged from the sinner, but now they are taken into the sanctuary's controlled environment where God deals with them.

From Revelation 16 we learn that God's judgment will also conclude prior to Christ's second coming. Revelation 16 describes seven last plagues that will devastate the world immediately prior to Christ's return. Notice what verses 5 and 6 say:

"You are righteous, O Lord, The One who is and who was and who is to be, Because You have judged these things. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. Fr it is their just due." (Revelation 16:5,6.)

These are the words of an angel following the outpouring of the third plague, and here the judgment is clearly an event in the past because the angel says that God has "judged"--past tense. And since the seven last plagues occur before the second coming of Christ, the judgment that precedes these plagues must both begin and end prior to His return (see also Revelation 19:1, 2). Adventists understand this to be the judgment that is described in Daniel 7:9,10).

So, Revelation also leaves absolutely no doubt that a judgment will occur in heaven prior to Christ's second Advent. I conclude, therefore, that the Adventist teaching ab out a pre-Advent Investigative Judgment is thoroughly biblical.

I would therefore propose, miz3, then instead of argument whether a judgment is necessary, to accept the Biblical proof that a pre-Advent judgment commences and terminates prior to the 7 last plagues. The Judgment that arrives in Revelation 14 is prior to the 7 last plagues. No question about it! Therefore, your only arguments left should not be "whether" a pre-advent judgment occurs, but "how" it proceeds, and learning the "nature" of the judgment.

There is TOO MUCH QUESTIONING about whether there needs to be a pre-Advent judgment or not for an all-knowing-God. It's time to KNOCK these thoughts OUT of our heads and quit questioning God!

1. There is one judgment (Revelation chapter fourteen) and that is after the Second Coming. God does on an ad hoc basis make judgments throughout history. Such as God judging King Saul as being lost and rejected. In this case God made a judgment by fiat without consulting any other entity.

You make the "assumption" which is not in the Bible that the Three Angels of Revelation chapter fourteen are "historically consecutive" events. These Angels of Revelation chapter fourteen have only one purpose----that purpose being to give a message. These are not historical events. They are messages only.

The Three Angels says nothing about satan bringing up any grievances/accusations against anyone.

As to the phrase "has come" it does not mean that this "judgment" is "about to take place".

It does not say that the "judgment" has already taken place or is currently taking place.

This is an an announcement of what is coming soon.

You are putting your bias (maybe taken from Ellen White) on the meaning of this text.

Like I said this announcement is a "warning" of what is coming and the consequences of not heeding this warning. This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with an IJ before the Coming of Jesus Christ.

2. Your Revelation chapter sixteen text clearly takes place after the Second Coming and after the judgment has been rendered.

If take some time to study Revelation chapter fifteen you will notice that the Saints (all the good people) are already in Heaven and on the "sea of glass". Also in Revelation chapter fifteen we see the Angels who pour out the "seven last plagues" are getting prepared for their work of "pouring".

Also notice that the Bible states these are called the last plagues because "last, because with them God’s wrath is completed." Revelation 15:1.

The plagues fall on the wicked as part of God's punishment of the wicked. It says absolutely nothing about the "Righteous" receiving and/or being near the wicked when the plagues fall. It says only the wicked are present on the earth to receive the plagues. It also states in Revelation chapter fifteen that the Righteous are in Heaven and watch the seven Angels get ready to pour out the plagues.

This is what the Bible says and it says things are completely different from what you say.

Paul is not saying that this judgment will take place before the Second Coming. Neither does Revelation chapter twenty-two say that such a judgment takes place before the Second Coming.

You are grabbing at texts and trying to string them together to say something these texts do not say at all. This is not proper Biblical study. Anyone can string texts together to say things the Bible never ever intended to be said. SDA are known for accusing others of doing exactly what you, yourself have here done in stringing Paul in Corinthians with Revelation "judgment" texts to say things the Bible does not actually say.

3. The blotting out/cleansing of the Temple which mimics the Day of Atonement comes when Sin (including human sinners), Satan, and Death are thrown into the Lake of Fire. When these are gone then and only then will the Universe and/or everything therein be "cleansed" forever from evil.

The Day of Atonement does and never has taken place before the Second Coming. It cannot because at the Second Coming sin, satan, and death are not yet destroyed.

In the Old Testament the Day of Atonement was to be a day of rejoicing because it typified the Final Cleansing of Everything. After that there was nothing more to cleanse.

Thus, based on the OT Sanctuary alone the Second Coming and/or events leading up to the Second Coming cannot possibly in anyway be part of the Day of Atonement because clearly by even your own reckonings "sin, satan, death have not been cleansed.

You appear to hold your position based on preconceived notions either by your own thoughts and/or the thoughts you have received from other humans.

We know Ellen White got it wrong. Did you get your ideas from her, perhaps?

Bottom line is that you are in a major way wrong in your belief that Revelation demonstrates a "pre-advent judgment" because as I have just shown this is in FACT impossible.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Although you listed a legitimate grievance this still does not prove the necessity of an IJ.

Basically, you're saying then that God is just plain too dumb and stupid when he mentions of a judgment that arrives in Revelation 14, and a judgment that is past in Revelation 16. You are questioning things that you should not be questioning. It's okay to entertain thoughts of why God does things in a certain way, but we should never question in the sense that it must not be true if we cannot make sense out of it. Because the Bible plainly says so.

You should read again my words in the previous post which clearly demonstrate the absurdity of your position and the enormous fallacies of your Bible study.

I am not calling God "dumb" in way shape or form. Please read the posts carefully.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Second the Job incident was also settled and needs no IJ to show the Truth about God. Besides the Bible does say something about "fear being the beginning of wisdom" Psalm 111:10.

See also Psalm 2:11; Psalm 19:9; Psalm 25:14; Psalm 33:8.

But we are talking of a different dispensation. We're not dealing with God's remnant here. We're not dealing with the final dispensation. We're talking about the LAST judgment phase for mankind, not any of the other previous judgments. The Bible is very plain that there is a future judgment from Bible times, yet is terminated prior to the outpouring of the 7 last plagues:

"He hath appointed a DAY, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man who he hath ordained whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." (Acts 17:31)

"He reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment TO COME." (Acts 24:25)

While Paul puts the judgment "TO COME", Revelation 14:7 places it as "HAS COME".

"God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Romans 2:16)

I suppose you could argue why God has to do this if He's already all knowing, but I prefer to go by what the Bible says.

"The Lord SHALL judge his people." (Hebrews 10:30.

All of this is placed in the FUTURE!

Yet Revelation 16:4-6 places it IN THE PAST.

This judgment BEGAN "with the house of God" (1 Peter 4:17).

And how do we prove that probation is closed for humanity, and there is no hope for salvation prior to the outpouring of the 7 last plagues?

"And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled." (Revelation 15:7,8)

Psalms 77:13 declares-- "Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary".

This means that salvation is only through the sanctuary. All those who accept Christ follow Him by faith into the sanctuary. This is why Paul emphatically states:

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:16)

But in Revelation 15:7,8, NO MAN is able to enter into the temple TILL the seven last plagues have poured out. This is when Christ steps OUT of the Most Holy Place, and declares "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (Revelation 22:11,12)

The cases of all humanity have been decided PRIOR to Christ's Second Advent. This means that a judgment must have transpired in heaven BEFORE Christ's Second Coming, yet FUTURE to the time of the Apostles.

Is it coincidence that the 2300 years terminating in 1844 happens to be SMACK between the time of the Apostles and the time of the Second Advent? Coincidence?

I don't think so! If not, where in-between are you going place this final-phase judgment? Where?

I say the most viable and logical place to put it is at the terminus of the longest time prophecy, and that is the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14.

There is only "One Judgment" and that comes after the Second Coming. The "righteous" need no judgment because Christ has already paid there penalty John Chapter Ten says that God/Jesus Christ holds the Righteous in His Hand and no one can pluck them out of His Hand. Thus God needs no judgment of the Righteous. It is the "wicked" who God wants to put on display and have everyone see that they are indeed wicked and deserve the punishment of the "seven last plagues" and then their final end in the Lake of Fire. The "seven last plagues" are a punishment not and end for the wicked.

Nothing can be "cleansed" until the wicked are destroyed. The wicked are not destroyed in full till after the Second Coming and after the Judgment of the wicked and after the punishment of the "seven last plagues" (while the Righteous are in Heaven--see Revelation chapters 15 and 16) and the final demise of the wicked.

You have the wrong sequence my friend because it based on the beliefs of human thinking and not on what the Bible actually says.

Your final words above condemn you that you are using your own wisdom and knowledge to figure things out instead of using the Bible and what it actually says.

Placing your wisdom/knowledge as the tool to interpret the Bible is a faulty method at best and at worst leads where you do not want to go.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

2. Revelation chapter twelve does not show in any way (except in the human imagination) that the unfallen angels had any doubts whatsoever.

You say do a "little thinking". That is precisely the problem. Humans are always putting in the Word their thoughts and thinking. This always leads to "ERROR".

We need to take the Word of God for exactly what it says. When we "add" our thinking/thoughts we are telling God that He did not do a good enough job of explaining Truth and thus He needs our help. I find that position abhorrent.

God did not leave anything out nor does God's Word need any additions and/or corrections from humans.

The angel's have not seen the mystery of iniquity work out to its fullest extent yet, and the fact that Satan was able to deceive 1/3rd of them only proves that angels are not infallible. They can be deceived too.

Vindicating God's judgments before the onlooking universe, the angels, and all the other unfallen worlds with created beings, is not over yet.

Without question, angels have questions. Marvin Moore gave the following:

Originally Posted By: Marvin Moore, The Case for the Investigative Judgment: Its Biblical Foundation

Adventists have always said that the transfer of sins to the sanctuary in the antitype refer to the fact that, throughout world history, the sins of God's professed have been written in heaven's record books so that they will be available for consideration at the time of the investigative judgment.

I agree, and I will suggest a reason why this is necessary. Revelation 12:10 tells us that Satan is the accuser of God's people, and we have narrative examples of this in both Job 1 and Zechariah 3. And in both cases, the evidence suggests that angels were present to hear the accusations. The biBible tells us that Satan accused Job at a time when "the sons of God" (Job 1:6, KJV, NASB, NKJV), "the angels" (NIV), had come together for a conference.

This is also evident in the story about Josua and the angel in Zechariah 3. Verse 4 says, "The angel said to those who were standing before him, 'Take off his [Joshua's] filthy clothes'" (NIV; emphasis added). We can reasonably assume that "those who were standing before" were God's angels. We can also reasonably assume that Satan is still accusing all of God's people before the loyal angels of being unworthy of God's favor. Satan has been doing this throughout the centuries and millennia of earth's history.

Let's consider an imaginary exchange between Satan and a heavenly angel whom I will call Raphael. this "converstion" took place some three thousand years ago.

Satan approaches Raphael as he is about to make his way back to heaven, and Satan says, "Can I have a word with you, please?"

Raphael stops and looks at Satan, and there's an uncomfortable pause. Finally, Raphael responds, "Well?"

Satan steps closer, a gleam in his eye and a sneer in his voice. "I understand Your Master has accepted King David. Surely you're aware of his adultery."

"I've heard about it."

"And your Master plans to keep this miserable wretch of a sinner as one of His own?"

"He says David has repented."

"Ha! Repentance! And then he marries the woman and sleeps with her the rest of her life. David's repentance was as flimsy as a piece of papyrus! I have people on my side who haven't been a fraction as devil as David is, but because DAvid is your Master's favorite, he's forgiven! How fair is that?"

"I'll convey your objection to my Master," Raphael says, and he turns and wings his way toward heaven.

Reaching the HOly City, Raphael hurries to find Michael, the Archangel, whom we know as Jesus. He finds Him at the entrance to the heavenly throne room, and he bows low. Then he speaks. "Michael," he says, "I just came from planet Earth, and Satan approached me complaining about Your forgiveness of King David. Satan challenged my statement that David had repented."

Michael smiles and puts a hand on Raphael's shoulder. "Thank you for letting Me know about Satan's objection," He says. "I'm not prepared to respond at the moment. But a day is coming---it will be many earth years from now---when I will open the record books of heaven for you and all of your angel friends to examine. At that time, I will give Satan all the time he needs to make hism ost convincing arguments in the presence of all the angels in My kingdom, and I will give you and your friends all the time you need to examine the records for yourselves. When you're through reviewing the evidence, I believe you will agree that I am right in the decisions I've made about David, and Satan is wrong."

Michael pauses to let Raphael think about what He's said. Then He continues. "Between now and the judgment, I'm taking personal responsibility for the sins of all My people." he puts a hand on Raphael's shoulder, looks into his eyes, and smiles." Until then," He says, "trust Me."

Gane pointed out that the transfer to the sanctuary means that "now the imperfection, in a contained controlled form, is in his 'ball partk,' that is, it is his problem." Gane is speaking of the earthly sanctuary and his point is that the transfer of the sinner's sin to the sanctuary meant that God assumed the responsibility for the sin until the Day of Atonement, when it would be removed from the sanctuary and transferred to the scapegoat.

I believe the same principle applies to the heavenly sanctuary. In the face of Satan's accusations against us, which raise serious questions in the minds of the angels, Jesus assumes the responsibility for our confessed and forgiven sins until the judgment. (Marvin Moore, The Case for the Investigative Judgment, pp. 179, 180)

1. You have one problem with this theory and that is your Prophet Ellen White says that at the Cross the Angels and the unfallen universe no longer had doubts and questions because they see the exact nature of sin, satan, etc. and what the end of such things would be.

Now I don't subscribe fully to everything Ellen White wrote but it is apparent you do. In that regard then there is no need for and IJ based on the view of your Prophet and what you believe about your Prophet's inspiration.

If the Angels and the unfallen universe have no questions and/or doubts since the Cross then you, Lysimachus, and the SDA Church .org cannot claim these same ones "need" the IJ because such makes no sense and is a contradiction.

Thus, either your Prophet is wrong about the Cross in which case we can have good reason to doubt her as an "inspired prophet" and/or your Prophet is wrong about the IJ and the need to answer the questions/doubts of the angels and unfallen universe.

Which is it? Regardless which you choose your Prophet comes out as not being "inspired" and therefore unreliable as a Prophet.

Second and most importantly the Bible does not say anything about the Angels and the unfallen universe ever having any doubts/questions about God in any way shape or form.

Thus, on both counts your theory goes gurgling down the drain.

Thirdly, you state that the Job incident is past and the IJ has nothing to do with it. Then you cite Marvin Moore who goes on cites Job as evidence there has to be an IJ.

Conflict, conflict, conflict. Gurgle, Gurgle.

Fourth, Marvin Moore like many SDA explainers keeps repeating "we can assume" such and such. If the Bible does not say explicitly then we cannot simply use "human assumptions" to make something true. If everyone did that then the Bible could never be truly known. This is also why there are soooooo many theories and church .orgs because they all make "assumptions" that they feel to them are reasonable because it fits their ultimate conclusions.

Thus, in this regard SDA Church .org is not different than all the other Church .orgs abundant on the planet, who all claim their version of the assumption is the Truth.

Fifth, then Marvin Moore thinking he bolsters his argument, which he does not, by creating "imaginary story" that is just that "imaginary within the human mind".

Is this what you think constitutes Truth? Is this the genius that you and others have urged me to read concerning this subject.

A book filled with "human assumptions" and "human imagination" and "human stories" to interpret the Bible the Sacred Word of God. Your kidding, right?

The "illustration" is demeaning to both the Intelligence and the Integrity of God and the Angels. It makes Them look like a bunch of clueless humans. I find such a portrayal sickening and disgusting. Let alone show what the Bible has said. There are no words to describe the weakness and horribleness of this illustration.

If you were kidding then I join you in a good laugh because that is exactly what Marvin Moore is.

If you weren't kidding then it explains why you are sooooo mixed up in regard to what the Bible says.

It would be tragedy if the SDA Church .org based its Doctrinal defense on this author(Marvin Moore).

WEAK, very WEAK. Actually, it is embarrassing.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

3. Doesn't you Prophet Ellen White say that the unfallen beings and the angels who were loyal to God finally saw satan and evil for what it was at the Cross.

If this is true then there would be no need for an IJ. There minds are already settled; Or was your Prophet Ellen White wrong in her statement about the Cross.

True, they comprehended at this point more than before, but the works of evil have still not fully worked out to its fullest extent.

Angel's trust God no doubt, but the work isn't finished. God has to ensure that not one question can remain or develop in the mind of anyone. Iniquity has not fully manifested itself.

We by faith accept that there is a judgment presiding in heaven--future to the New Testament writers, and PRIOR to the Second Coming. The 2300 days slam-dunks this time of the judgment in 1844, which is very near the end of the history of this world in light of the thousands of years that have transpired.

Where does it say that the "angels/unfallen universe" comprehended more but not all?

1. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

2. Does Ellen White say that the "angels and unfallen universe" comprehended more but not all?

If so please the quote and source from Ellen White that says this about the Cross and how she links this to the need for the IJ.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

4. SDA Church .org and their doctrines are full of contradictions and made up stuff because they:

a. Use human additions of human thought.

b. Use their Prophet to interpret the Bible.(in spite of their denials to the contrary).

I just used scripture. Ellen White only confirms these Biblical positions. The Biblical works of men like Hiram Edson, O.R. L. Crosier, Enoch Jacobs, Joseph Turner, Apollos Hale, and F.B. Hahn brought Adventism to the conclusions that it did concerning the pre-Advent judgment in heaven commencing in 1844. Ellen White's visions only "confirmed" that what these men had discovered WAS INDEED CORRECT---but her visions only "refined", "sharpened", and "illuminated" what had already been discovered through the STUDY OF THE SCRIPTURES ALONE.

This miz3 is a blazing, head-on--dead-on truth that you refuse to see.

You do not study.

You do not READ.

You are guilty for not reading the books and materials that we have recommended, because for YEARS you continue to repeat foolish nonsense that has been refuted and debunked EONS ago.

1. You used Scripture laced with human thought/theories.

2. You quoted a "joke" to bolster your position.

3. You cite a list of humans who interpreted the Bible based on their experiences and not on the Bible and the Bible only.

4. You cite a "prophet" who I demonstrated is full of contradictions, at least in regard to "angels and unfallen universe" about the Cross and the IJ.

5. I don't think your conclusions about the Bible, about me, and my views have any credibility at all.

6. Then you ask me to read an author (Marvin Moore) who is a JOKE with capital letters in his defense of the IJ. There is absolutely no Biblical basis for anything you quoted from him. Just laughable illustrations and unBiblical assumptions.

It looks like the SDA Doctrine of the Sanctuary and the IJ are in deep trouble. It is nothing but human assumptions and human mumbo jumbo. You string texts together that have no coherent compatibility in order to bolster your initial unBiblical assumption.

All this because SDA Church .org is trying to defend a failed prediction concerning the 1844 Second Coming and its resulting embarrassing Disappointment.

[BobRyan]

Currently miz3 seems to be stuck in the idea that angels are not all-knowing even though scripture says that the Bible itself contains mysteries and information "into which angels long to look" and that through the church God is making known the mysteries of the Gospel to principalities and powers in heaven.

And of course the "demonstration" of the truth of God's statements about Job was made before the sinless fallen beings of Job 1 and Job 2 showing once again that in a free will system - compelling data is how you reach consensus - even in a sinless context such as Job 1.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

There is only "One Judgment" and that comes after the Second Coming. The "righteous" need no judgment because Christ has already paid there penalty John Chapter Ten says that God/Jesus Christ holds the Righteous in His Hand and no one can pluck them out of His Hand. Thus God needs no judgment of the Righteous.

You are contradicting what is clearly written in Scripture.

ESV | ‎2 Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

ESV | ‎Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Why do ALL face Judgment? Because NOT ALL who say, "Lord, Lord" are known by Jesus or really know Jesus. Wheat & tares grow in the church. Good & bad fish are brought in by the net. The wheat kernel has to be separated from chaff. Ditto sheep from the goats, etc.

While ALL face judgment, the righteous will NOT be condemned. Judgment will VINDICATE them from the accusations of the devil who accuse them "day & night" before God, Rev 13. No judgment, no vindication. No judgment, no kingdom inheritance, Dan 7.

Quote:

Nothing can be "cleansed" until the wicked are destroyed.

Again, you are contradicting Holy Writ.

ESV | ‎1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If you are looking for cleansing from sin after Jesus comes, that will be too late for you, my friend.

NIV84 | ‎Heb 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.