1844

[Lysimachus]

God made unconditional promises to Israel. He made some that were conditional, too, but, you're saying He's free to break His Word, and WOULD break His Word, when He made unconditional promises, knowing that Israel would walk away ?

I don't care about labels. I am a Biblist. Jesuits invented futurism and Preterism. They did not invent the idea that God does not lie.

They were conditional.

[BibleOnly]

Genesis 13

:14 And the LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him. Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward.

:15 For all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever.

:16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered.

:17 Arise, walk about the land through its length and breadth, for I will give it to you.

Gen 15:18 On that day THE LORD MADE A COVENANT WITH ABRAM saying, 'To your descendants I have given THIS LAND, from the river of Egypt, to the great river, the river Euphrates.

Genesis 17 THE COVENANT OF CIRCUMCISION

:3 - :4 As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you. And you shall be the father of a multitude of nations.

:5 No longer will shall your name be called Abram; but your name shall be Abraham. For I will make you the father of many nations.

:6 And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you.

:7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

:8 And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, THE LAND of your sojournings, ALL THE LAND OF CANAAN, FOR AN EVERLASTING POSSESSION, and I will be their God.

Deuteronomy 30

:1 So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all the nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

:2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today you and your sons,

:3 then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you.

:5 And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; an He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.

2nd Samuel 7 (THE DAVIDIC COVENANT)

:12 When your days [David] are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.

:13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

:14 I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men.

:15 but My loving-kindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.

:16 And your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever.

God made national promises, which were not conditional. Jesus said:

Mat 19:28 And 1161 Jesus 2424 said 2036 unto them 846, Verily 281 I say 3004 unto you 5213, That 3754 ye 5210 which 3588 have followed 190 me 3427, in 1722 the regeneration 3824 when 3752 the Son 5207 of man 444 shall sit 2523 in 1909 the throne 2362 of his 846 glory 1391, ye 5210 also 2532 shall sit 2523 upon 1909 twelve 1427 thrones 2362, judging 2919 the twelve 1427 tribes 5443 of Israel 2474.

Luk 22:30 That 2443 ye may eat 2068 and 2532 drink 4095 at 1909 my 3450 table 5132 in 1722 my 3450 kingdom 932, and 2532 sit 2523 on 1909 thrones 2362 judging 2919 the twelve 1427 tribes 5443 of Israel 2474.

What does this mean, if the church IS Israel ?

[Lysimachus]

BibleOnly,

If you're really interested, you will read the materials on the web. You're going way off topic from 1844 now, and I really do not have the time. It's all documented if you're interested.

Genesis 13 - realized in church through the spiritual seed

Genesis 17 - realized in the Church, antitypically

Deuteronomy 30 - realized in the Church (see Deuteronomy 28 also)

2nd Samuel 7 - realized in the Church -- the Davidic Covenant began when Christ sat on the Davidic Throne in heaven. We are living in the New Davidic Covonent, which is homogeneous with the New Covenant. These prophecies are now realized, antitypically, not typically.

The 12 tribes they are to rule are the Church. All of it is the Church! YES.

http://hearingthetruth.org/Table_of_Contents.htm -- please read, especially Chapter 3: "Israel of God" and Chapter 4: "Davidic Covenant"

From now on, I will only focus on issues pertaining to 1844 in this thread. If you want to make any rationale out of what we are saying, you're going to have to go WAYY back and do your own research, because your beliefs are built on so false premises, it is impossible for you to understand what is being said.

Here is another article I wrote:

The Antitypical Fulfillment of Old Testament Typology Concerning Ancient Israel

[BibleOnly]

"The 12 tribes they are to rule are the Church. All of it is the Church! YES."

This plainly makes no sense. The church all rule each other ? Do we take turns ? And, it's clear that Jesus was lying, at least in the sense that His hearers would have assumed a promise regarding Israel.

Honestly, I've lost interest. It's clear that 1844 is just a long winded explanation by the SDA for a failed prediction. There's no Biblical evidence for the details of what you claim, or at least, I don't believe it's been provided when I asked for it. And, I have no interest in the claims that God is a liar, I've read them and I reject them. Thanks for your time, I think we can call this chapter closed.

[Lysimachus]

Scriptures detail a "future judgment", and Revelation 14 describes this "hour of judgment". Adventists attached the term "Investigative", kind of like other Christians utilize the term "trinity" or "prevenient grace", or "Arminianism", etc. etc., even though these terms are not in the Bible "per say". They are "concepts" derived from scriptures. It is based on understanding the "nature" of the Day of Atonement in the Old Testament with the pre-Advent judgment that occurs before the Second Coming. The term "investigative" is a term added to emphasize the import and nature of this judgment--that it is a "searching" judgment, and a necessary process for the benefit of mankind so that they might prepare themselves and be ready for when the Bridegroom comes out to meet the Bride.

[BibleOnly]

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The heavens does not mean a literal place called heaven, ever. God is dealing with man on earth.

". We have quoted to you Daniel 7 and Revelation 14 enough to know that there is a literal event that transpires in heaven, where the Son of Man comes before the Ancient of Days. Are you going to deny that this transpires simply because it is "invisible" to the human eye? What ever happened to faith? What about what Jesus said to Thomas, that blessed are those that believe and have not seen? I have already given plenty of scriptures proving a judgment that precedes the Second Coming."

Like 1 Cor 12-14, you're reading what you believe, and not what it says. You obviously spent a long time writing this and I'm sorry, I have a lot of work to do and don't have time to study it, but I think I'm right in assuming it's more of the same. Faith has nothing to do with it. Prophecy is given so when we see something happen, we can see that God planned it. We saw nothing happen in 1844. No Bible verse I know of says that what you believe, will happen. Rev 14 is not about a judgement in heaven, nor does any verse I know of state that God ever didn't know if Paul was saved, or had to prove it to satan or anyone else. These are all inventions.

[Lysimachus]

Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

I don't think you believe this. I think you believe that those of the OT had access to the same promise that a Christian does today, even though Jesus said the Spirit could not come until after He died. Yes, the need for Jesus to die existed from the foundation of the world, God always had the same plan. But, the OT was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, He didn't play mind games by coming along to die for the sins of people saved by Him before He had even lived on the earth. It's not sci fi. If that was able to happen, it would have happened from the start, not retrospectively.

You need to quit saying "mind games". Because it isn't true. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned according to Scripture, and are we going to accuse the Bible of playing mind games? Not so. The reason they reason they received not the promise was because they failed to live up to the covenant promises. Read my paper in my previous post on the Antitypical Fulfillment of Old Testament Typology.

All the land promises to Israel will be fully realized at the end of the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem physically settles down on the Mount of Olives. This commences the earthly reign.

Allow me to clarify: I do believe the land-promises will be fulfilled, but at the end of the millennium. In other words, I believe that the New Jerusalem will descends from heaven and physically settle in Palestine, on the Mount of Olives, and Israel, the embodiment of all the saints from all ages, will physically, and literally inherit the land. What I do not believe, however, is that this takes place at the beginning of the millennium. I do not believe it makes sense for wicked people to be amidst Christ and His people for 1000 years. What nuisances--who wants wicked people all over prancing about the surface of the earth in a time of "peace"? I don't believe that the term "reigning" means we will reign over wicked people, because Revelation 22:5 tells us that the saints will "reign for ever and ever" after the earth has been made new. Unless we are to conclude that wicked people will exist forever, even in the earth made new? I could not imagine even a less learned dispensationalist concluding such a ridiculous notion. I believe that every verse that every Bible verse that Dispensationalists use to apply to an earthly reign is to be applied at the end of the millennium.

It is my belief that this is how the Old Testament types will be fulfilled. When Paul wrote to the Corinthian Church regarding the many mishaps of the Children of Israel, he began in 1 Corinthians 10:1 and 2 with the following:

• "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea."

The first thing to note here is that Paul tells the Gentile Corinthian Church that the Israelites were “our fathers.” In so doing, he is automatically establishing that the Gentiles are also the "Children of Israel". Did you catch that?

And after describing the many mistakes they made, Paul in verse 11 continues by stating the following:

• "And all these things as TYPES did happen to those persons, and they were written for OUR admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come." (1 Cor 10:11--YLT)

  Romans 5:14 says... "But the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a TYPE of him who is coming." (YLT)

Regarding the days of Noah and the Ark being saved in the flood waters, Peter declares baptism as an "ANTITYPE" of those eight survivors who were baptized in the flood:

• "Also to which an ANTITYPE doth now save us -- baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 3:21—YLT)

The Greek words here are "tupos" (type) and "antitupos" (antitype).

Remember, a "type" is a pattern while an "antitype" is something formed after the pattern.

We see therefore why it becomes vastly important to realize that the New Testament employs itself as the antitype of Old Testament types. This means that the New Testament employs itself as the focal point in fulfillment of Old Testament patterns. Exodus 25:9-40 describes on how the Sanctuary materials were made after a pattern, and the Hebrew for pattern is "tabniyth", and it means a form, plan, figure, image, and is equivalent to "tupos" in the Greek.

In Hebrews 8:5 the sanctuary was an "example" and "shadow" of heavenly things. In Greek, the word for “example” is "hupadeigma", which means an "example, an imitation, a figure, a copy", and the word for shadow is "skia" means an "image cast by an object and representing the form of that object." These words are very similar to "tupos" and "antitupos".

So in essence, the Mosaic sanctuary was a pattern, a type of heavenly things. With this in mind, it becomes clear that the local and literal settings of the land of Palestine, Jerusalem, the Temple, and the Jews, were a type of the worldwide saints with the Heavenly Jerusalem being the capital of the saints. The saints of the New Covenant make up the spiritual Davidic Sanctuary, and the New Testament Saints come to God through the Priestly Ministry of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary--the Antitypical interpretation shows that the literal settings of Ancient Israel served as a Type, or a Pattern, of worldwide Spiritual Israel.

With the above imagery depicted, it should not be difficult for Dispensationalists to discern that the New Testament Church is clearly the Antitypical world-wide spiritual Israel of the Old Testament Typical local and literal Israel in literal Palestine, and uplifted to a much higher spiritual conflict in the book of Revelation. If the Old Testament earthly sanctuary was a figure or pattern of the Heavenly Antitypical Sanctuary where Christ mediates in the New Covenant dispensation, and the Church saints come before God through the High Priestly Ministry of Christ by faith in the Heavenly Sanctuary (like the Jews came before God at the door of the tabernacle through the earthly priestly ministration), then clearly consistency demands the typology to indicate that the Church Saints are the realization of Antitypical, New Testament spiritual Israel.

Dispensationalists like to somehow graft Gentiles all into the same stock for the benefits of salvation, yet at the same time, keep them distinct. If all are grafted into the "salvation" benefits of the Abrahamic Covenant via the olive tree and made possible by Christ's atonement, what point is there to still continue making a distinction? Why reinstitute sacrifices for the Jews in the 70th week when all they have to do is Accept the Messiah just like anyone? Some say this is for land benefits. I don't know about how anyone else may feel, but the land of Israel leaves something to be desired. To me it would be pretty irresponsible of God to have the Israelites inherit that warn-torn-down land. That whole land needs to be refurbished—and what better way than to renew the whole earth? Why do you think that Christ constantly told the Jews "My kingdom is not of this World"? (John 18:36)

Take notice to what Hebrews 11:11-16 has to say concerning the land promises:

• "(11)Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. (12) Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. (13) These ALL DIED in faith, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES, but having seen them AFAR OFF, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (14) For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. (15) And truly, if they had been MINDFUL OF THAT COUNTRY from whence they came out, THEY MIGHT HAVE HAD OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE RETURNED. (16) But NOW they desire a BETTER COUNTRY, that is, an HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them A CITY."

If Dispensationalists could only grasp and discern the spiritual implications of this impressive passage in Hebrews! Paul is, without question, establishing how the land promises to literal Israel will now be fulfilled antitypically! It is now going to be fulfilled in a Heavenly Country with a Heavenly City (that’s right, NOT in the SAME exact way described in Ezekiel anymore!!!). And yes, this will meet its fulfillment when the Church is taken to heaven in the New Jerusalem for 1000 years, and will reach its acme of fulfillment in the earth made new when the New Jerusalem returns at the end of the 1000 years. The Conditional Types are now meeting their Unconditional Antitypes!

It should be clearer now why Hebrews 11:13-16 becomes so important, because Paul clarifies regarding the old country (Palestine)—how they would have had opportunity to have returned had they been mindful of it. But now they desire a much better country--which is heavenly--a place where God has prepared for them a City! Then Galatians 4:22-31 make it so clear that the Old Jerusalem is in bondage, and reflects Hagar...the bondwoman who was "cast out". Paul unambiguously establishes that Hagar represents the Old Covenant, and Sarah (the freewoman) represents the New Covenant. In so doing, he also forcefully drives the point home that the Old Jerusalem was the focal point of the Old Covenant, and the New Jerusalem the focal point of the New Covenant.

[BibleOnly]

Sorry, I am still not in a position to read all this, that's why I tried to tell you once before, so you don't waste your time writing these sort of epic posts when I just don't have time to read them. A simple explanation of how 1844 was a visible event, and how the Bible explains the details of what you claim, I will read.

[Lysimachus]

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The heavens does not mean a literal place called heaven, ever. God is dealing with man on earth.

". We have quoted to you Daniel 7 and Revelation 14 enough to know that there is a literal event that transpires in heaven, where the Son of Man comes before the Ancient of Days. Are you going to deny that this transpires simply because it is "invisible" to the human eye? What ever happened to faith? What about what Jesus said to Thomas, that blessed are those that believe and have not seen? I have already given plenty of scriptures proving a judgment that precedes the Second Coming."

Like 1 Cor 12-14, you're reading what you believe, and not what it says. You obviously spent a long time writing this and I'm sorry, I have a lot of work to do and don't have time to study it, but I think I'm right in assuming it's more of the same. Faith has nothing to do with it. Prophecy is given so when we see something happen, we can see that God planned it. We saw nothing happen in 1844. No Bible verse I know of says that what you believe, will happen. Rev 14 is not about a judgement in heaven, nor does any verse I know of state that God ever didn't know if Paul was saved, or had to prove it to satan or anyone else. These are all inventions.

So God will never take ANY of His people, ever, to visit His home in heaven? Why would God do that? That doesn't even make any sense!

There is a Heavenly Reign (during the 1000 years), and there is an Earthly Reign (after the 1000 years). You will not find one single text that says the reign with Christ is on the earth during the 1000 years. Every text alluding to the earthly reign is pointing to the New Earth. I'll give you $20 if you can find me a single verse that says the reign with Christ during the 1000 years is on the earth.

We did see momentous events transpire in 1844. There is a HUGE list of critical events that transpired in that year the world-over.

Also, it is not a judgment in heaven, but a judgment FROM heaven CONCERNING the earth.

[Lysimachus]

Sorry, I am still not in a position to read all this, that's why I tried to tell you once before, so you don't waste your time writing these sort of epic posts when I just don't have time to read them. A simple explanation of how 1844 was a visible event, and how the Bible explains the details of what you claim, I will read.

I copied and pasted it from my book. My book is approximately 200 pages so far, dealing and answering all your questions over the last 3 years, long before you asked them. I'm familiar with all of your arguments, I've dealt with all of them, and have answered all of them. I've spent a good portion of my years worshiping and fellowshiping with non-Adventists, and examining their doctrines inside and out.

I'm even a good friend to a Dispensational family nearby here, and his father is the author of books, and believes very similar to you regarding Israel.

[BibleOnly]

So God will never take ANY of His people, ever, to visit His home in heaven? Why would God do that? That doesn't even make any sense!

There is a Heavenly Reign (during the 1000 years), and there is an Earthly Reign (after the 1000 years). You will not find one single text that says the reign with Christ is on the earth during the 1000 years. Every text alluding to the earthly reign is pointing to the New Earth. I'll give you $20 if you can find me a single verse that says the reign with Christ during the 1000 years is on the earth.

We did see momentous events transpire in 1844. There is a HUGE list of critical events that transpired in that year the world-over.

God has no literal home in a physical place called heaven, that is natural thinking.

What is your list of events that were foretold in the bible and happened in 1844 ?

[Gerr]

Sorry, this is plain wrong. God did not break His promises to Israel and instead marry the church. In the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, the virgins are not getting married, they are attending the marriage, and they are us. Jesus told the Apostles they would rule and reign over Israel. How could that be, if they, as the church, would BECOME Israel ( I know they were both, but, His statements were about all Christians, not just the 12 ). Lots of scriptures explain this.

What part is "plain wrong?".

1) Are/were God's promises to Israel conditional or not? See Dt 28 & 29.

2) Are you saying that the true Israel is different from the church of the NT?

3) Who is the "Israel of God" that Paul was referring to in Gal 6?

[BibleOnly]

I'd prefer you answer me on topic, what worldwide visible events happened in 1844 in direct fulfilment of prophecy ?

[Gerr]

I don't understand why you would bother to raise questions if you don't want to take the time to read the answers.

[Gerr]

I'd prefer you answer me on topic, what worldwide visible events happened in 1844 in direct fulfilment of prophecy ?

I don't know to whom you are directing your questions because it looks like you are responding to yourself. But since your post followed mine, can I assume that it was directed at me?

Look at Daniel 7. That is a court scene that takes place in heaven. Just because you don't/didn't see something happen doesn't mean the event did not take place!!! Look at Job 1 & 2 again. Job was totally oblivious to what was happening behind the scenes, but that doesn't mean God & the devil did not have a confrontation about Job!

[Lysimachus]

God has no literal home in a physical place called heaven, that is natural thinking.

What is your list of events that were foretold in the bible and happened in 1844 ?

Natural thinking? What you have is IDEALISTIC thinking, where you spiritualize and mystify the plain sense reading of God's Word!

We have no reason whatsoever to spiritaulize the New Jerusalem in heaven. God made a literal earth, why wouldn't he have a literal city in heaven? Are we to conclude that God and the angels are just floating in outer-space like stupid ghosts?

What foolishness!

Satan did not copy God with the cities on earth? Where do you think Satan got it from?

John goes through all that work describing the dimensions of the city, yet somehow, it's just nothing but "air"?

Historic Adventism believes that the SPIRITUAL things on earth mirror the LITERAL things in heaven.

Here is the Biblical, Adventist, Pioneer view. We are living in the Dispensation of the Holy Spirit, and under this Dispensation, we have the following:

• The things of God up in heaven have a literal application, the things of God on earth have a spiritual application. As long as you remember this principle, you will save yourself a lot of confusion and error.

  1. In heaven, God is a Literal God. On earth, God is a Spiritual God--through the Holy Spirit.

  2. Christ in heaven is present Literally. On earth He is present with you Spiritually.

  3. In heaven there is a Literal Holy City. On earth there is a Spiritual Holy City--the Christian Church.

  4. In heaven there is a Literal Temple. On earth there is a Spiritual Temple--the Temple of the Christian Church--believers--each believer is a Spiritual Temple. And all believers together make up a vast glorious Spiritual Temple made up of spiritual living stones.

  5. In heaven there is a Literal Throne. On earth, there is a Spiritual Throne--the throne of the heart.

  6. In heaven there are Literal Stones that are a part of the Holy City. On earth there are Spiritual Stones--each believer is a living stone.

  7. In heaven there is a Literal Priesthood--Christ and the 24 elders. On earth there is a Spiritual Priesthood of believers--we are spiritual creatures.

  8. In heaven there is a Literal Intercessor--the man Christ Jesus. On earth there is a Spiritual Intercessor--the Holy Spirit--who makes intercession with groanings and utterances.

  9. In heaven there is a Literal Alter of Incense. On earth there is a Spiritual Alter--the Altar of the Heart.

  10. In heaven there is Literal Incense. On earth there is Spiritual Incense, which represents the prayers of the saints.

  11. In heaven there is a Literal offering of Christ's blood and His righteousness. On earth there are Spiritual offerings--the offerings of prayer, praise, and thanksgiving according to 1 Peter 2:5.

  12. In heaven there are Literal lampstands. On earth there are spiritual lampstands representing the Church--the 7 churches.

  13. In heaven there is Literal light in the lampstands. On earth there is Spiritual light in the Church--the light of the Holy Spirit, the light of truth.

  14. In heaven there is a Literal shewbread. On earth there is a Spiritual shewbread--the Word of God.

  15. In heaven there is a Literal Tree of Life. On earth, there is a Spiritual Tree of Life--the Word of God, the leaves of the Bible.

  16. In heaven there is a Literal River of Life. On earth there is a Spiritual River of Life--the Holy Spirit (John 7:38,39)

  17. In heaven there is a Literal resurrection of believers--when we enter the Kingdom of Glory there is a Literal resurrection. On earth there is a Spiritual resurrection of believers that are being born again.

  18. In heaven there is Eternal Life for the believer Literally. On earth now we have Eternal Life Spiritually.

  19. In heaven God's law is on Literal Tables in a Literal Temple. On earth God's law is on Spiritual Tables of the Spiritual Temple of the believer.

  20. In heaven believers will sit Literally with Christ sharing His throne. On earth now believers sit with Christ in heavenly places in the Spiritual sense according to Ephesians 2.

  21. In heaven it's a Literal Kingdom of Glory. On earth it's a Spiritual Kingdom of Grace.

  22. In heaven Jesus is king--Literally king. On earth He is a Spiritual king now in the Kingdom of Grace.

  (Principles derived from Austin P. Cooke)

This Adventist understanding was a revolutionary, God-ordained understanding that totally turns Evangelical thought upside down. It completely overturns their literalistics perspectives of an earthly reign. Such individuals looking forward to a literal reign on the earth during the millennium are repeating the mistakes of the Pharisees who thought Christ was going to establish a literal reign on a literal throne in literal Jerusalem.

[Gerr]

Amen. Amen. Amen.

[Lysimachus]

I should also mention the words of Paul:

"For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him." (Isaiah 64:4)

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (1 Cor. 2:9)

"Hath prepared" = past tense!

In heaven, God has already literally prepared things that we have not yet seen! Obviously then, in heaven, there are going to be things to SEE. Literal things!

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I'd prefer you answer me on topic, what worldwide visible events happened in 1844 in direct fulfilment of prophecy ?

I don't know to whom you are directing your questions because it looks like you are responding to yourself. But since your post followed mine, can I assume that it was directed at me?

Look at Daniel 7. That is a court scene that takes place in heaven. Just because you don't/didn't see something happen doesn't mean the event did not take place!!! Look at Job 1 & 2 again. Job was totally oblivious to what was happening behind the scenes, but that doesn't mean God & the devil did not have a confrontation about Job!

But, was there a prophecy foretelling that what happened to Job, was going to happen ? What's the point of a prophecy that is invisibly fulfilled ?

I just read Dan 7. Where does this talk about a secret process of judgement ?

[BibleOnly]

I don't understand why you would bother to raise questions if you don't want to take the time to read the answers.

I've kept focusing on what my core question is. And I am just very busy, which is why I tried, in fairness, to forewarn you that I didn't have time for long posts, today.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I don't understand why you would bother to raise questions if you don't want to take the time to read the answers.

I've kept focusing on what my core question is. And I am just very busy, which is why I tried, in fairness, to forewarn you that I didn't have time for long posts, today.

That's fine and good. All understandable. Same thing happens to me a lot. What we have to do is just jot down on a notepad that we can always come back and look over the old posts later.

[Gerr]

But, was there a prophecy foretelling that what happened to Job, was going to happen ? What's the point of a prophecy that is invisibly fulfilled ?

I just read Dan 7. Where does this talk about a secret process of judgement ?

The only difference is that one was reporting an event that happened behind the scenes while the other was reporting a future behind-the-scenes event. So, just because you didn't see the event doesn't mean it didn't happen. Most of the things that happened in history, you didn't see. That doesn't mean they didn't happened.

Bible fact: There IS a sanctuary in heaven. There IS a High Priest doing intercessory work for us there. We don't see these realities except by faith, but it doesn't mean they are not there.

[BibleOnly]

It's possible that we know these things by faith. You've not shown where the bible says them, of course, but they may be true. That is a separate question to the question of why God would use prophecy for us to decode something that we cannot see, which is different to how prophecy works everywhere else in the Bible.

[BobRyan]

OK, I am back. I've read Dan 8 several times and can't see where it says anything specific to relate to the details of what you're saying. I can see how it could be a jumping point for a description of a time when a process described elsewhere in the Bible might take place, so, where does the Bible explain the IJ in detail ?

As even the NIV points out in study notes - Daniel 7 and 8 are addressing the same periods of time - and can be used in an almost templated overlay fashion.

Thus - Medo-Persia in Dan 8 lines up with the second kingdom (the bear) in Dan 7 (the one that follows Babylon) and Greece in Dan 8 lines up with the leopard in Dan 7.

The saints are persecuted by the little horn in Dan 8 just as they are in Dan 7. And the Dan 7 solution to the problem (explicitly stated in chapter 7 to be the judgment) is the same solution being identified in Dan 8.

in Christ,

Bob

[BibleOnly]

I'm not sure that I regard the NIV study notes as proof of anything, but the core point is, what Bible verse explains the need for this secret judgement period and explicitly states it would take place ? And once we establish that it is real, the next question is, why would God give us a prophecy of something that He's going to do in secret, that we cannot see ?

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 7:26 ¶ But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

I know you make much of the 'changing of times' and think it's Sunday. Let's ignore that for now. Where does this say that the judgement will sit for an extended period, prior to the dominion of the worldly kingdom being taken away ? Where does it explain what you believe ?