1844

[miz3]

Hiram Edson got it from the Bible.

If you want primary sources as proof that there was a world-wide global awakening, read J.N. Loughborough's "The Second Great Advent Movement", and LeRoy Froom's Volume 4 of "The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers". Froom provides all the primary sources from around the world. I was discussing these topics with a Church Historian over the phone the other day, and he and I both agreed that people like you are completely aloof to what really went on during these time periods because you don't study the material.

And for the record, I have all 4 volumes sitting on my desk right now. Just volume 4 is 1295 pages long.

NO. It was Hiram Edson's human excuse thinking mind that dreamed up the excuse because the Bible and the Bible only said absolutely nothing about 1844/Heavenly Sanctuary.

Second since you have such voluminous data from Loughborough and Froom then you should be able to give us a little sample of your data. Say give us five world events from areas other than Europe and North America that were "world stunning" events that the whole world would know it. You made the claim now back it up and prove it or accept that you just made up those facts to suit your argument.

Third, since you also said that seventy-five expositors from "all over the world" also independently came up with the SDA Church .org position on the Sanctuary/IJ concept give us six expositors from areas of the world other than Europe/North America that came to this same conclusion.

Given your claim of such "voluminous source material" these two little tasks should not be too difficult to do and verify.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

...they make up stories and don't just rely on the Bible.

Where have SDAs made up stories?

We do rely on the Bible but the Bible is not our only authority. Our official doctrines tell you that Ellen White is also an authority. We believe her to be a genuine prophet of God.

So are claims made for Mary Baker Edy and Joseph Smith.

There has been no Biblical evidence presented that shows that the Bible predicted and/or claimed a prophet would appear in 1844 let alone point directly to Ellen White.

[BibleOnly]

More important is the fact that Revelation ends with curses to anyone who 'adds to this book'. Sure she did not add to the book of revelation, but she certainly adds to the scripture, and to the prophecies made in Revelation, so either way, she is guilty, and so are all who follow her over Christ. You cannot follow Christ and Ellen White.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

2 - He was changed after He died, so now He can be

2Th 3:16 ¶ Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord [be] with you all.

Jesus can be with us through His Spirit, but His death didn't change Him so that He can be everywhere at once.

You don't know what Jesus Christ who is in every way God as He is in every way human can or cannot do/be.

The Bible and the Bible only says that "nothing is impossible with God". That is a direct quote.

Since Jesus Christ is God in every way possible then Jesus Christ can do the "impossible". So Jesus Christ can be "everywhere" at once if Jesus Christ were to want to. The Bible and the Bible only does not limit Jesus Christ in the least little bit just because Jesus Christ is at the same time fully God and fully human(man).

You again get these erroneous concepts not from the Bible and the Bible only but from Ellen White.

Oh, and don't quote those texts where Christ says I will leave and send you the Comforter. These do not prove that Christ is "limited in any way, shape, or form". They only state that God will send them God which will be called the Holy Spirit.

Again such statements are NOT ABOUT ANY LIMITING POWERS OF JESUS CHRIST.

[12tribes]

More important is the fact that Revelation ends with curses to anyone who 'adds to this book'. Sure she did not add to the book of revelation, but she certainly adds to the scripture, and to the prophecies made in Revelation, so either way, she is guilty, and so are all who follow her over Christ. You cannot follow Christ and Ellen White.

Do you have any proof that Ellen white adds to scripture, that is says something other than what the Bible teaches?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

You think Jesus was always and will always be a man, in human form?

When Jesus returns for His Church, does He return as a man?

What was Christ when He left? Was He a man?

The angels-- who cannot lie-- said that "this same Jesus" will return in the same way as the disciples saw Him go into heaven.

How did they see Him go? Was He omnipresent at that time?

Look at these verses:

Acts 4:10

let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well.

2 Tim. 2:8

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel,

1 Tim. 2:5

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Rev. 19:11-16

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. [12] His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. [13] He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. [14] And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. [15] From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. [16] On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

NOTE: Jesus Christ will forever be THE GOD-MAN.

1 John 1:1

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—

2 John 1:7

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

NOTE: The Greek indicates that Jesus Christ continues to come in the flesh.

1. The Bible and the Bible only never ever says that Jesus Christ gave up being God. In FACT the Bible supports that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human(man). John chapter one which you cite also says that the Word never stopped being the Word when the Word also took on being also fully human. This is a demonstration of God doing the "impossible" just as the Bible states.

2. When God to visit Abraham God came to Abraham as a "man" but that didn't mean God ceased to be God.

3. Again, for emphasis the Bible never ever says that Jesus Christ ever stopped being God. Read Philippians chapter two.

4. I am shocked that you believe that Jesus Christ is no longer "Divine" but is merely just a human.

I don't think that is the Official SDA Church .org position.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

More important is the fact that Revelation ends with curses to anyone who 'adds to this book'. Sure she did not add to the book of revelation, but she certainly adds to the scripture, and to the prophecies made in Revelation, so either way, she is guilty, and so are all who follow her over Christ. You cannot follow Christ and Ellen White.

Do you have any proof that Ellen white adds to scripture, that is says something other than what the Bible teaches?

It's self evident in statements like 'Of course not everything EW teaches can be found in the Bible', and the fact that SDA quote EW instead of the Bible to refute what the Bible says.

If she doesn't add to the Bible, you don't need her.

[12tribes]

Do you have any proof that Ellen white adds to scripture, that is says something other than what the Bible teaches?

It's self evident in statements like 'Of course not everything EW teaches can be found in the Bible', and the fact that SDA quote EW instead of the Bible to refute what the Bible says.

If she doesn't add to the Bible, you don't need her.

Then why don't you start a new thread showing proof so that we can see it and discuss it in more detail?

[BibleOnly]

I'd prefer someone to explain to me where the Bible says what you claim about 1844, that's my core goal. I posted a number of statements from the article I was told to read, and challenged them from the bible. I'd prefer people answer that, on this thread. I've done an EW thread and I know it's pointless, you guys just have no idea how prophecy works in the NT, and can't believe anything that is not ratified by your false prophet.

[12tribes]

I'd prefer someone to explain to me where the Bible says what you claim about 1844, that's my core goal. I posted a number of statements from the article I was told to read, and challenged them from the bible. I'd prefer people answer that, on this thread. I've done an EW thread and I know it's pointless, you guys just have no idea how prophecy works in the NT, and can't believe anything that is not ratified by your false prophet.

Even if people show you the Bible would you believe it or do you have your mind set?

[miz3]

What was He, and why can't He be that again after rising from the dead ?

You have to understand that SDA and SDA Church .org is full of confusion and contradictions because of their belief in Ellen White.

Thus, it is common as we have seen on this thread and currently with the discussion on the Nature of Christ that you get contradictory and confused statements backed by texts that are irrelevant to the issue.

Then these same SDA and SDA Church .org claim they have found the Truth and that is backed by the Bible and the Bible only.

It is an amazing trick. Some SDA are better at this "shell" game than others.

There are however some very honest sincere SDA who truly believe this stuff to be true and they honestly don't see the contradictions and confusion.

The raising of Ellen White to "canon" status is the root of the problem just as is the same to be said for those who believe in "canon" status for Mary Baker Edy and Joseph Smith.

[miz3]

I've read it. It's plain wrong.

"It is clear, therefore, that the Scriptures present the heavenly sanctuary as a real place (Heb. 8:2, NEB), not a metaphor or abstraction.4 The heavenly sanctuary is the primary dwelling place of God."

If Revelation is factual, then heaven means being turned to stone and used to build a building. Revelation is a book of word pictures, not a home movie where everything is exactly as it is stated. Even then, Rev does not state what you believe started to happen in 1844. No Bible verse does that, in typical SDA fashion, it's some verses, some assumptions and a chain of human logic, leading to human conclusions.

Very True.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I'd prefer someone to explain to me where the Bible says what you claim about 1844, that's my core goal. I posted a number of statements from the article I was told to read, and challenged them from the bible. I'd prefer people answer that, on this thread. I've done an EW thread and I know it's pointless, you guys just have no idea how prophecy works in the NT, and can't believe anything that is not ratified by your false prophet.

Even if people show you the Bible would you believe it or do you have your mind set?

That's a silly question. If the Bible says it, I believe it. But, you guys claim the same thing and when drawn to long discussion on passages like 1 Cor 14, claim that they say the opposite of what they say in plain English. So, no-one sincere about the Bible would ever claim that they would reject something if they are shown where the Bible says it.

[BibleOnly]

Then these same SDA and SDA Church .org claim they have found the Truth and that is backed by the Bible and the Bible only.

It is an amazing trick. Some SDA are better at this "shell" game than others.

There are however some very honest sincere SDA who truly believe this stuff to be true and they honestly don't see the contradictions and confusion.

The raising of Ellen White to "canon" status is the root of the problem just as is the same to be said for those who believe in "canon" status for Mary Baker Edy and Joseph Smith.

Yes, the person who got me interested in the SDA, defriended me and said she'd never talk to me again, b/c I kept pointing out what the Bible says, but her reply was always 'I'm not good with chapters and verses, but I know I am doing what the Bible says, even though I can't explain it'. Which, to me, is tragic.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

More important is the fact that Revelation ends with curses to anyone who 'adds to this book'. Sure she did not add to the book of revelation, but she certainly adds to the scripture, and to the prophecies made in Revelation, so either way, she is guilty, and so are all who follow her over Christ. You cannot follow Christ and Ellen White.

Do you have any proof that Ellen white adds to scripture, that is says something other than what the Bible teaches?

It has been shown throughout this thread.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Then these same SDA and SDA Church .org claim they have found the Truth and that is backed by the Bible and the Bible only.

It is an amazing trick. Some SDA are better at this "shell" game than others.

There are however some very honest sincere SDA who truly believe this stuff to be true and they honestly don't see the contradictions and confusion.

The raising of Ellen White to "canon" status is the root of the problem just as is the same to be said for those who believe in "canon" status for Mary Baker Edy and Joseph Smith.

Yes, the person who got me interested in the SDA, defriended me and said she'd never talk to me again, b/c I kept pointing out what the Bible says, but her reply was always 'I'm not good with chapters and verses, but I know I am doing what the Bible says, even though I can't explain it'. Which, to me, is tragic.

Very tragic and too often typical of the general SDA person.

[John317]

Tell what you believe SDAs claim happened in 1844?

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I can't make much sense of it, but somehow God started to judge people in preparation for the second coming, either to establish who is saved, or to show the devil who is saved. I'm not sure of the details, it's obviously a little nuts. In the absence of Bible verses to explain any of this in detail, I think it depends on whose story I am listening to, and isn't really clear at all.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

Study the following chapter:

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-23.htm

When you've read it and attemped to understand it, come back and we can talk about it.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I've read it. It's plain wrong.

The first thing is to understand what SDAs teach regarding 1844 and the Investigative Jugdment. Your statement above shows you haven't come close to understanding it.

You may not agree with SDAs but you should at least be able to tell us what we believe.

You conclude that the chapter is "plain wrong." What is your reasoning and evidence for the conclusion? Be specific.

Since you are confused about what we believe, naturally you can't tell what's wrong with the belief.

[BibleOnly]

I've made two or three more posts covering parts of the article and why I disagree with it. I guess you're reading in sequence ? Keep going, you'll see I've been specific. However, again, I keep asking you to tell me exactly what you believe and where the Bible says it, the lack of response is not my fault :-)

[John317]

Where have SDAs made up stories?

We do rely on the Bible but the Bible is not our only authority. Our official doctrines tell you that Ellen White is also an authority. We believe her to be a genuine prophet of God.

Originally Posted By: miz3

So are claims made for Mary Baker Edy and Joseph Smith.

Mere claims in themselves are nothing. The Bible itself speaks of false prophets and shows the differences between the the false and the genuine.

Have you read the writings and studied the lives of Eddy and Joseph Smith?

What is the essential difference between the writings and claims of Ellen White and the writings and claims of those other two individuals?

[BibleOnly]

None, really. In all cases, their followers quote them as having priority over scripture.

[John317]

Ellen White's writings do NOT have priority over Scripture.

[BibleOnly]

But she says things that the Bible does not say. So, therefore, she adds to the Bible and is free to do so. The rest is a word game. Esp when you guys quote EW to prove bible passages wrong, as has happened to me several times.

This is off topic, I've done a thread on it. Let's focus on where the Bible says the things you claim about 1844. I've posted some specifics from the SDA site, answers to those posts are what I'd like most to see.

[Woody]

Ellen White's writings do NOT have priority over Scripture.

That's kind of deceptive.

Because - many SDAs don't bother to try to determine what scripture says. They rely on EGW as a crutch rather than searching the Bible. ANd of course many actually believe that it is impossible for her to have an opinion that is outside of the Bible. So, it's clear to see why non SDAs would think that it is she who is the priority over scripture.

[John317]

None, really.

Then how can you say that the claims made for Ellen White are the same as those made for Eddy and Jospeh Smith? Your claim is simply untrue, but you won't know this until you've compared them.

Just because those two are false prophets is no evidence that Ellen White was a false prophet or that God did not raise up a true prophet in these last days.

You're speaking out of ignorance rather than out of knowledge.

The first thing to do is know what Ellen White said regarding her relationship to Scripture. Does she ever suggest that her writings take priority over the Bible?

Compare her statements about this to the statements made by Eddy and Joseph Smith.

[John317]

Esp when you guys quote EW to prove bible passages wrong, as has happened to me several times.

Show examples of where her writings have been quoted to prove the Bible wrong.