BobRyan Posted December 29, 2011 Posted December 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz 1. Romans 3:4 does not say that God will be judged. "What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge." Romans 3:3-4. (NIV) The text says, that God will be the Judge. The NIV translation of the verse is problematic because the verb krinesthai is in the passive voice. Check it out. Therefore the correct translation is as rendered in: ESV - “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.” NASB - “THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.” KJV - That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Young's Literal Translation: ‘That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.’ Look at what the verse is itself saying. If God is not being judged, why does He need to be JUSTIFIED in His words? The judgment of public opinion was that Judge Ito was not very competent in the OJ trial. God must "demonstrate His righteousness" in His disposition of sin & sinners in a way that engenders confidence, otherwise, if there are any doubts about His competence & righteousness, sin could arise again. All true. It is just as we see in Job 1 and Job 2 - when Job is tested and judged - we also see that God's own claims are also being tested and Judged. In Matt 7 Jesus said "by their fruits you shall know them". Rom 2:13-16 explains how those words are tested in the future pre-advent judgment. (Future to Romans 2) in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
miz3 Posted December 29, 2011 Posted December 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz 1. Romans 3:4 does not say that God will be judged. "What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge." Romans 3:3-4. (NIV) The text says, that God will be the Judge. The NIV translation of the verse is problematic because the verb krinesthai is in the passive voice. Check it out. Therefore the correct translation is as rendered in: ESV - “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.” NASB - “THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.” KJV - That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Young's Literal Translation: ‘That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.’ Look at what the verse is itself saying. If God is not being judged, why does He need to be JUSTIFIED in His words? The judgment of public opinion was that Judge Ito was not very competent in the OJ trial. God must "demonstrate His righteousness" in His disposition of sin & sinners in a way that engenders confidence, otherwise, if there are any doubts about His competence & righteousness, sin could arise again.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 29, 2011 Moderators Posted December 29, 2011 Miz3: Because as you and I and others have pointed out already that God needs not "judgment process" to know who is saved or lost. Thus, God simply acts on His Knowledge. So then, since God is all-knowing and knows who is saved & who is lost, what is the point of a Judgment? miz3: No one else is deciding anything. Really? It is written, again!: ESV | ‎1 Co 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? ESV | ‎1 Co 6:3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! miz3: It appears to me that you have a very "human centric" view of God. IOW you explain God as if God is some "equal" with us humans and as such needs to be watched so that we know every move and all of its ramifications or we might develop "doubts/question" about God and His Government. God is not like that at all. God is way above us. God is because He is. God is beyond questioning/doubting/watching. That's because you do not understand the condescension of God! ESV | ‎Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, ‎6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, ‎7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. ‎8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. You don't think the angels learned something when they saw the Creator, the Commander of the angelic host, humble Himself to become not just a man but a servant, and then die the most ignominious death on a cross? Do you think they did not learn anything when He stooped down, the Creator, to wash the dirty feet of His disciples? You don't think they learned anything when they saw the contrast of His condescension with Satan's rebellion for supremacy? Quote: To trust God means, trusting in Him whether God tells you stuff or not. The Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is nothing more than saying God cannot be trusted so we need to keep a hawk eye on Him or we will develop doubts/questions and thus our trust will deteriorate. This evil unBiblical Doctrine actually accuses the Angels/unfallen universe of not completely "trusting in God" which the Bible and the Bible only states is a sin and those who engage in this sin will burn in Hell. This IJ/Sanctuary Doctrine of the SDA Chruch .org is indefensible from the Bible and the Bible only. In fact it is a blasphemy against God and the Holy Angels of Heaven. On the contrary, the Judgment, including the Investigative Judgment, will prove to the entire angelic host, the unfallen worlds in the universe, and to the saints who put their trust in God even against at times overwhelming observable evidence that He seemed could not be trusted, will see that their faith in God was not based on just His say so - "Trust Me." The lost rebellious angels and all the lost people who joined in their rebellion will see the evidence laid out in the open in the IJ/Judgment, that they has swallowed Satan's lies. Even the lost, including Satan himself, will bow the knee and acknowledge that God was/is right after all. What you are doing, miz, is like what many non-Adventists are doing. Because SDAs keep the Sabbath, they are earning their way to heaven, when keeping the Sabbath is the open declaration of SDAs of the very opposite - that they cannot save themselves - that God alone can make them holy. That because SDAs keep the law, they are legalists. Now you are calling evil & unbiblical the very method that God is using to clear His name of all the charges that Satan has heaped on Him. Beware, my friend, of calling light darkness & darkness light; calling good evil & evil good.
miz3 Posted December 29, 2011 Posted December 29, 2011 Quote: ESV | ‎Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, ‎6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, ‎7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. ‎8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Gerry this text is talking about Jesus Christ. It is God the Father who will be the Judge. So condescension has nothing to do with it. Besides the Bible does not teach what you are asserting.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 29, 2011 Moderators Posted December 29, 2011 Gerry this text is talking about Jesus Christ. It is God the Father who will be the Judge. You are half correct. Here's Holy Writ: ESV | ‎Jn 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
miz3 Posted December 29, 2011 Posted December 29, 2011 So then, since God is all-knowing and knows who is saved & who is lost, what is the point of a Judgment? Gerry we have already answered this question before. God holds the Judgment, after the Second Coming, because God wants to demonstrate to everyone His Greatness, His Mercy toward the righteous, His Hatred of the wicked, His Hatred of sin, His Glory, His hatred of satan. I don't know if my list is exhaustive or not, I suspect that God has more to show us about Himself. Maybe we should say that the Judgment after the Second Coming is done by God so God can display Himself to the whole Universe (and let God give the list). This why the Judgment (which takes place only after the Second Coming) is being staged by God.
miz3 Posted December 29, 2011 Posted December 29, 2011 You don't think the angels learned something when they saw the Creator, the Commander of the angelic host, humble Himself to become not just a man but a servant, and then die the most ignominious death on a cross? Do you think they did not learn anything when He stooped down, the Creator, to wash the dirty feet of His disciples? You don't think they learned anything when they saw the contrast of His condescension with Satan's rebellion for supremacy? I am not saying they didn't learn anything. What I am saying is they didn't learn anything that would change their view of "loyalty" toward God because it never ever was a possibility that they would have "reason to be disloyal". In other words, these Angels did not have nay questions/doubts in regard to "loyalty" that needed to be answered. A part from "the loyalty question" I am sure the Angels learned a lot about God the Father and God Jesus Christ. Such learning though HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH LOYALTY. The Angels already knew that satan was a jerk.
miz3 Posted December 29, 2011 Posted December 29, 2011 What you are doing, miz, is like what many non-Adventists are doing. Because SDAs keep the Sabbath, they are earning their way to heaven, when keeping the Sabbath is the open declaration of SDAs of the very opposite - that they cannot save themselves - that God alone can make them holy. That because SDAs keep the law, they are legalists. Now you are calling evil & unbiblical the very method that God is using to clear His name of all the charges that Satan has heaped on Him. I am not doing what you say. I have not mentioned the Sabbath and or anything about SDA being "legalistic". Thus, you make a false and a diversionary accusation (I know you are not personally attacking me, at least I don't think you are. I would be very disappointed if you were.). I am only attacking the Investigative Judgment as not being a Biblical Truth. I am also saying the concept of an Investigative Judgment is the product of human imaginations. Please don't try and divert this discussion away from the IJ into a discussion of SDA and their critics who accuse them of being legalistic. Such a diversion would disappoint me very much.
miz3 Posted December 29, 2011 Posted December 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz Gerry this text is talking about Jesus Christ. It is God the Father who will be the Judge. You are half correct. Here's Holy Writ: ESV | ‎Jn 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, That text is not talking about the Judgment after the Second Coming. The Judgment after the Second Coming will be presided over by God the Father.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 29, 2011 Moderators Posted December 29, 2011 You are half correct. Here's Holy Writ: ESV | ‎Jn 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, miz3: That text is not talking about the Judgment after the Second Coming. The Judgment after the Second Coming will be presided over by God the Father. Now I'm going to ask you what you have been asking as to do. Where is that found? Book, chapter, & verse, please.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 29, 2011 Moderators Posted December 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo What you are doing, miz, is like what many non-Adventists are doing. Because SDAs keep the Sabbath, they are earning their way to heaven, when keeping the Sabbath is the open declaration of SDAs of the very opposite - that they cannot save themselves - that God alone can make them holy. That because SDAs keep the law, they are legalists. Now you are calling evil & unbiblical the very method that God is using to clear His name of all the charges that Satan has heaped on Him. I am not doing what you say. I have not mentioned the Sabbath and or anything about SDA being "legalistic". Thus, you make a false and a diversionary accusation (I know you are not personally attacking me, at least I don't think you are. I would be very disappointed if you were.). I am only attacking the Investigative Judgment as not being a Biblical Truth. I am also saying the concept of an Investigative Judgment is the product of human imaginations. Please don't try and divert this discussion away from the IJ into a discussion of SDA and their critics who accuse them of being legalistic. Such a diversion would disappoint me very much. I was making a comparison of what others are doing with our doctrine of the law & the Sabbath with what you are doing with out teaching about the IJ/Judgment.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 29, 2011 Moderators Posted December 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo You don't think the angels learned something when they saw the Creator, the Commander of the angelic host, humble Himself to become not just a man but a servant, and then die the most ignominious death on a cross? Do you think they did not learn anything when He stooped down, the Creator, to wash the dirty feet of His disciples? You don't think they learned anything when they saw the contrast of His condescension with Satan's rebellion for supremacy? I am not saying they didn't learn anything. What I am saying is they didn't learn anything that would change their view of "loyalty" toward God because it never ever was a possibility that they would have "reason to be disloyal". In other words, these Angels did not have nay questions/doubts in regard to "loyalty" that needed to be answered. A part from "the loyalty question" I am sure the Angels learned a lot about God the Father and God Jesus Christ. Such learning though HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH LOYALTY. The Angels already knew that satan was a jerk. So what you are saying is that even though 2/3 of the angels remained loyal and 1/3 believed Lucifer's lies, you don't for one moment even suspect that there were loyal angels who may have entertained some thought that perhaps, even just one tiny bit, Lucifer's charges may have some merit?
Moderators Gerr Posted December 29, 2011 Moderators Posted December 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo So then, since God is all-knowing and knows who is saved & who is lost, what is the point of a Judgment? Gerry we have already answered this question before. God holds the Judgment, after the Second Coming, because God wants to demonstrate to everyone His Greatness, His Mercy toward the righteous, His Hatred of the wicked, His Hatred of sin, His Glory, His hatred of satan. I don't know if my list is exhaustive or not, I suspect that God has more to show us about Himself. Maybe we should say that the Judgment after the Second Coming is done by God so God can display Himself to the whole Universe (and let God give the list). This why the Judgment (which takes place only after the Second Coming) is being staged by God. "God has more to show us about Himself?" Interesting! If God's Judgment is done in secret & we are just to take His word, "I know, trust Me," what is He going to show? Can't He just say, "Trust Me, I'm right?" No, no. That's not what He does. He lays out ALL THE BOOKS OPEN for all to see, as depicted in Dan 7 & Rev 20. No secrets. No, "just trust Me" kind of stuff. Even now He has given us sufficient evidence that we can trust Him, but when He lays bare all the books of heaven for all to see, there will be overwhelming evidence that our faith & trust was not all in vain.
miz3 Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 You don't think the angels learned something when they saw the Creator, the Commander of the angelic host, humble Himself to become not just a man but a servant, and then die the most ignominious death on a cross? Do you think they did not learn anything when He stooped down, the Creator, to wash the dirty feet of His disciples? You don't think they learned anything when they saw the contrast of His condescension with Satan's rebellion for supremacy?
miz3 Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo So then, since God is all-knowing and knows who is saved & who is lost, what is the point of a Judgment? Gerry we have already answered this question before. God holds the Judgment, after the Second Coming, because God wants to demonstrate to everyone His Greatness, His Mercy toward the righteous, His Hatred of the wicked, His Hatred of sin, His Glory, His hatred of satan. I don't know if my list is exhaustive or not, I suspect that God has more to show us about Himself. Maybe we should say that the Judgment after the Second Coming is done by God so God can display Himself to the whole Universe (and let God give the list). This why the Judgment (which takes place only after the Second Coming) is being staged by God.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 30, 2011 Moderators Posted December 30, 2011 My friend Gerry Cabalo let us look at the text upon which you rest so heavily to show that "God is to be judged". Your analysis of the text is faulty. Here is the text in full context...... "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest." Psalm 51:4. (KJV). I hope you also noticed that I used the King James Version for your benefit. Okay, we seem to have a little bit of a problem. You are correct that the original text that was quoted in Ps 51:4 is in the Hebrew in the ACTIVE voice. And the "you" in Psalms is addressed to GOD by David. Here are more modern translations than the KJV: ESV | ‎Ps 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. NASB95 | ‎Ps 51:4 Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge. NIV84 | ‎Ps 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge. That God is the Judge and the One doing the judging of sinners, we are agreed. But as I have already pointed out, God & His actions are IN A SENSE ON TRIAL IN THE COURT OF UNIVERSAL OPINION. How? Look at the words the psalmist uses - "justified when you speak", "blameless when when you judge", or "proved right when you speak, and justified when you judge." For one to be "proved right", pronounced "blameless" when he judges, or "justified when you judge" clearly points to the fact that somebody is doing the judging to make such a verdict as "justified", or "blameless", or "proved right". Miz, I don't know what kind of hermeneutics you are using to arrive at the conclusion that the "you" which was referring to God in Ps 51, now refers to man in Rom 3:4. The fact that Paul has turned what was in the active voice in psalms into the passive voice in Romans, indicates to me that Paul saw the same thing that I am pointing out to you, i.e. that for God to give the verdict that He was "justified" & "blameless" means that He is/was being judged.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 30, 2011 Moderators Posted December 30, 2011 What you say is contradictory. First you say that there is already sufficient evidence, in FACT there is more than overwhelming evidence, then you say there is not enough evidence to be convincing. No contradiction at all. The abundance or the dearth of evidence is in the eye of the beholder. If "in FACT there is more than overwhelming evidence," as you say, why are there so many skeptics about His fairness, goodness, or even His very existence? Sufficient evidence is not = to ALL the evidence are in! Otherwise, why are we still living by faith rather than sight if all the evidene are in? Quote: If there is sufficient evidence for the Angels now. Then there is no necessity for more evidence. Either the evidence is "convincing" or the evidence is "not convincing". Whatever doubts about God's truthfulness some of the unfallen angels ever had, were probably dispelled when their Commander hanged on the Cross. But are they still learning something new about the love & justice of God? The Apostle Peter seems to think so when he wrote: 10 It was concerning this salvation that the prophets made careful search and investigation, and they prophesied about this gift which God would give you. 11They tried to find out when the time would be and how it would come. This was the time to which Christ’s Spirit in them was pointing, in predicting the sufferings that Christ would have to endure and the glory that would follow. 12God revealed to these prophets that their work was not for their own benefit, but for yours, as they spoke about those things which you have now heard from the messengers who announced the Good News by the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. These are things which even the angels would like to understand. American Bible Society. (1992). The Holy Bible : The Good news Translation (2nd ed.) (1 Pe 1:10–12). New York: American Bible Society. Quote: It cannot be both. Either we "trust" God or we "don't trust" God. There is no middle ground. Even the "slightest" doubt and you "don't trust". You don't think there are degrees of trust? Do we all have the same measure of faith/trust? If you do, there are some mountains some people might want you to move. Quote: I never ever said no "books were open". I am saying that any "open books", any Judgment scene, any court like proceeding takes place only AFTER THE SECOND COMING. The Bible does not say anything about a "pre-advent judgment scene" (the IJ) at all. Daniel seven and Revelation twenty all take place after the Second Coming. ESV | ‎Ps 58:11 Mankind will say, “Surely there is a reward for the righteous; surely there is a God who judges on earth.” ESV | ‎Re 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. So tell me, how can the righteous receive their reward at the Second Coming if their judgment takes place AFTER the Second Advent?
miz3 Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 My friend Gerry Cabalo let us look at the text upon which you rest so heavily to show that "God is to be judged". Your analysis of the text is faulty. Here is the text in full context...... "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest." Psalm 51:4. (KJV). I hope you also noticed that I used the King James Version for your benefit. Okay, we seem to have a little bit of a problem. You are correct that the original text that was quoted in Ps 51:4 is in the Hebrew in the ACTIVE voice. And the "you" in Psalms is addressed to GOD by David. Here are more modern translations than the KJV: ESV | ‎Ps 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. NASB95 | ‎Ps 51:4 Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge. NIV84 | ‎Ps 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge. That God is the Judge and the One doing the judging of sinners, we are agreed. But as I have already pointed out, God & His actions are IN A SENSE ON TRIAL IN THE COURT OF UNIVERSAL OPINION. How? Look at the words the psalmist uses - "justified when you speak", "blameless when when you judge", or "proved right when you speak, and justified when you judge." For one to be "proved right", pronounced "blameless" when he judges, or "justified when you judge" clearly points to the fact that somebody is doing the judging to make such a verdict as "justified", or "blameless", or "proved right". Miz, I don't know what kind of hermeneutics you are using to arrive at the conclusion that the "you" which was referring to God in Ps 51, now refers to man in Rom 3:4. The fact that Paul has turned what was in the active voice in psalms into the passive voice in Romans, indicates to me that Paul saw the same thing that I am pointing out to you, i.e. that for God to give the verdict that He was "justified" & "blameless" means that He is/was being judged. Nope.
miz3 Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 Whatever doubts about God's truthfulness some of the unfallen angels ever had, were probably dispelled when their Commander hanged on the Cross. The Bible does not say this. Ellen White says this but the Bible is totally silent about this.
miz3 Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 My friend Gerry Cabalo let us look at the text upon which you rest so heavily to show that "God is to be judged". Your analysis of the text is faulty. Here is the text in full context...... "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest." Psalm 51:4. (KJV). I hope you also noticed that I used the King James Version for your benefit. Okay, we seem to have a little bit of a problem. You are correct that the original text that was quoted in Ps 51:4 is in the Hebrew in the ACTIVE voice. And the "you" in Psalms is addressed to GOD by David. Here are more modern translations than the KJV: ESV | ‎Ps 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. NASB95 | ‎Ps 51:4 Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge. NIV84 | ‎Ps 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge. That God is the Judge and the One doing the judging of sinners, we are agreed. But as I have already pointed out, God & His actions are IN A SENSE ON TRIAL IN THE COURT OF UNIVERSAL OPINION. How? Look at the words the psalmist uses - "justified when you speak", "blameless when when you judge", or "proved right when you speak, and justified when you judge." For one to be "proved right", pronounced "blameless" when he judges, or "justified when you judge" clearly points to the fact that somebody is doing the judging to make such a verdict as "justified", or "blameless", or "proved right". Miz, I don't know what kind of hermeneutics you are using to arrive at the conclusion that the "you" which was referring to God in Ps 51, now refers to man in Rom 3:4. The fact that Paul has turned what was in the active voice in psalms into the passive voice in Romans, indicates to me that Paul saw the same thing that I am pointing out to you, i.e. that for God to give the verdict that He was "justified" & "blameless" means that He is/was being judged. Tortured logic.
miz3 Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 The Bible does NOT engage in the "court of human opinion". So such a thing is not Biblical.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 30, 2011 Moderators Posted December 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Whatever doubts about God's truthfulness some of the unfallen angels ever had, were probably dispelled when their Commander hanged on the Cross. The Bible does not say this. Perhaps not as explicitly as you might want, but.... Quote: Ellen White says this but the Bible is totally silent about this. And for good reason. On the eve of His crucifixion, Jesus had this to say: ESV | ‎Jn 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. ‎‎NASB95 | ‎Jn 12:31 “Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. ‎‎NIV84 | ‎Jn 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. The "prince of this world (Satan) will be driven out," "cast out" from where? Not from this planet because he is still around. So cast out/driven out from where?
Moderators Gerr Posted December 30, 2011 Moderators Posted December 30, 2011 Tortured logic. I agree. When the original quote clearly had God referred to in the "you", and then you change it to mean that it was referring to man, THAT is tortured logic & hermeneutics.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 30, 2011 Moderators Posted December 30, 2011 The Bible does engage in the "court of human opinion". That was all I was saying - God being tried in the court of human AND universal opinion! Quote: So such a thing is not Biblical. If it's not biblical, why then does God need to be justified & proved right?
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