1844

[Lysimachus]

But who is doing the 'investigating' ? Whoever it is, they must be seeking to establish something they did not know before, that's what 'investigating' is. What is the work that needs to be done before Christ can come ?

The Son of God is the one doing the investigating.

• "And all the churches shall know that I am He who investigates minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works." (Revelation 2:23).

It doesn't matter whether God needs to investigate us or not. He wrote it that way to get a point across. We need to flat out quit questioning why God has to investigate, and just take it with our pants down. God wrote it that way to get us to wake up. To gently and kindly slap us in the face. We need to take it.

[BibleOnly]

OK - so if God is pretending to need a space of time to investigate us, to make a point, how is that point clear ? I mean, what could someone observe to know this is happening now, without an SDA to explain it from the bible to them ?

I am still trying to find time to look in to Daniel 8 but, in the meantime, given your statement above that people being vastly disappointed proves something happened in 1844, I'm wondering if the whole thing is a circular argument built on a failed prediction. The JWs have one of those too, as I've said.

[Lysimachus]

OK - so if God is pretending to need a space of time to investigate us, to make a point, how is that point clear ? I mean, what could someone observe to know this is happening now, without an SDA to explain it from the bible to them ?

I am still trying to find time to look in to Daniel 8 but, in the meantime, given your statement above that people being vastly disappointed proves something happened in 1844, I'm wondering if the whole thing is a circular argument built on a failed prediction. The JWs have one of those too, as I've said.

It's just a point being made by God. He's searching our hearts. Makes sense to me!

It's a court scene for our benefit. It gets us moving....

It gets us thinking....

It gets us to search our hearts and find out where we are at spiritually. To find out whether we are really where God wants us to be.

We are to search our hearts and find out what God wants of us. Have we given up every idol in our life? Have we sacrificed all? Have we agonized to put away all self?

Why did God send a searching angel through the land of Egypt to see who had blood on their doorposts? To find out which doors to pass by and which doors to smite?

Why would God need to do this?

Who knows!

Didn't He just "know" already?

I'm sure. But why is that important to us?

We just by faith accept that He has a way of doing things to get us to think.

It's to instill the sense of urgency in us to not get passed by, and to be "found blameless".

It just is.

[BibleOnly]

OK, but, why do only people after 1844 need to think this way ? Surely everyone alive in 1844 is dead now, and therefore needed to think this way for the same reasons as the people who died in 1843 ?

God physically put blood on the doors. So, that's the question. If God did something to make us think about things, what was it ? All you've told me is that He didn't do what was expected and so people came up with a new theory after the fact to show that they were right, even if they were wrong.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

John317 I am still waiting for those Bible texts that:

1. List the grievances satan has against God and Jesus Christ. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

2. Where in the Bible does it say the angels and the unfallen beings had doubts about God and Jesus Christ and thus, the Investigative Judgment was intended to answer their questions and doubts. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

3. Or do you admit that because you said that the angels and unfallen beings no longer have questions and doubts then their is no need of an Investigative Judgment?

Please give Scripture Book, Chapter, and verse and clarification of which way it is.

1. A listing of actual grievances is irrelevant. What we know is that Satan is at war with God's people and hence he is at war with God Himself.

2. The investigative judgement is primarily for the human race. In fact, the Bible says that it is we who will judge angels and not the other way around.

3. Again, the investigative judgement is for us. If the unfallen beings can benefit from it as well then great, but whether or not they do is not important to the doctrine itself. And, without a doubt, they have great interest in our fate. One quick browse through the book of Revelation will reveal that.

Originally Posted By: miz3

If you don't have the Biblical answers in Book, Chapter, and verse then the only conclusion we can come to is that the Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is not Biblical but just simply the imagination and fill ins of SDA -.org human input.

None of your so-called arguments in anyway is important to the doctrine of the investigative judgement itself.

1. The list of grievances is relevant in that such grievances are a major reason SDA Church .org cites is the reason for the Investigative Judgment. Thus, unless you can list and show that satan had said grievances then there would be no reason for the IJ to exist.

Again, please list the grievances logged by satan against God and His Government that make the IJ a necessity. Book, Chapter, and verse, please.

2. If the Investigative Judgment is primarily for us humans who are on the earth then that is rather a difficult problem, as Bible Only has pointed out. We are here on earth and the IJ takes place in Heaven. How do you propose to overcome that hurdle since we cannot see what is going on?

Did you forget the IJ takes place (is taking place now) before the Second Coming? We are not in Heaven yet.

Could you be mistaken about this? It seems that you are?

3. See number two directly above this. How can we "investigate the books" while we are here on this earth and the IJ takes place in Heaven.

It seems that you are confused, my friend Windsor.

4. Everything I have asked for is vital to the issue of the Investigative Judgment. Without answers to my questions the Doctrine of the IJ is kaput because the IJ is not a Biblical Doctrine.

The IJ is a Doctrine that comes from sources other than the Bible and the Bible only.

[miz3]

On this subject of judgement as EGW states, remember this, His reward is with Him when He comes, The first resurrection is of those found to be the righteous.

EGW, speaks,

"The cleansing of the sanctuary . . . involves a work of investigation --a work of judgment. This work must be performed prior to the coming of Christ to redeem His people; for when He comes, His reward is with Him to give to every man according to his works." {FLB 207.5}

Who can argue against that? On what grounds?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

It is Ellen White's opinion. Such facts are not in the Bible and the Bible only.

This is the ground which makes the Doctrine of the IJ kaput.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

But who is doing the 'investigating' ? Whoever it is, they must be seeking to establish something they did not know before, that's what 'investigating' is. What is the work that needs to be done before Christ can come ?

The Son of God is the one doing the investigating.

• "And all the churches shall know that I am He who investigates minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works." (Revelation 2:23).

It doesn't matter whether God needs to investigate us or not. He wrote it that way to get a point across. We need to flat out quit questioning why God has to investigate, and just take it with our pants down. God wrote it that way to get us to wake up. To gently and kindly slap us in the face. We need to take it.

This is not the "Standard SDA Church .org" view of the IJ.

This might be your personal view and that is fine. You are entitled to your personal view. I am not interested in arguing with you about your personal views.

I am interested in the "Official SDA Church .org" view of the IJ which is completely different than what you are asserting up above.

The "Official SDA Church .org" view is found in Doctrine number twenty-four of the 28 Fundamentals.

It says that the IJ is important because it reveals to the "heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom." (direct quote).

According to the Official SDA Church .org Doctrine the "ones doing the 'investigating' are "heavenly intelligences".

THAT MEANS IT IS NOT GOD/JESUS CHRIST, IT IS NOT ANY HUMAN WHO HAS EVER AND/OR WILL EVER EXIST, ITS NOT ANYTHING ON EARTH, ETC.

Thus, the Fundamentals as stated in the Official SDA Doctrines differs substantially from what you say are your views.

Thus, I ask you again to defend the IJ by answer the three questions I have posed.

If you can not give me Book, Chapter, and verse in regard to the three questions then your SDA Official Doctrine as written is not Biblical in even the least little jot/tittle.

[miz3]

For John317, Lysmachus, and anyone else who can.

Here are the questions again, so you won't lose track of what to answer.

1. List the grievances satan has against God and Jesus Christ. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

2. Where in the Bible does it say the angels and the unfallen beings had doubts about God and Jesus Christ and thus, the Investigative Judgment was intended to answer their questions and doubts. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

3. Or do you admit that because you said that the angels and unfallen beings no longer have questions and doubts then their is no need of an Investigative Judgment?

Please give Scripture Book, Chapter, and verse and clarification of which way it is.

[BibleOnly]

My fundamental question, which I hope does not get lost, is that if God is doing this as an example to people, then how do people know that it's happening, the way they could see the blood on the lintel ?

[Lysimachus]

Why God commenced a special work in heaven in 1844 is simply the Antitype of the Day of Atonement.

Throughout the year, God's people were "investigated", of course. Throughout the year, their sins were forgiven, and blotted out from the sinner and transferred to the sanctuary to be cleansed. Throughout the year, God searched hearts.

But, beginning 1844 is a world-wide corporate judgment of the House of God. It is a symbol to know where we are at in prophetic history. It is a symbol to know that God is in his last phase of judgment and we better be ready before Jesus to come.

I was sharing this doctrine with a cousin of mine who just started to study this doctrine out for the first time. He wasn't making sense of it, until I explained it to him.

And he said, "so Jesus is now commencing his final phase of ministration in the Most Holy Place?" And I said, "yes". And then he said "whoah, Jesus is coming soon, not much to go". At that moment it hit me like a ton of bricks of just what this message does for people. It instills a sense of urgency of the need to unite with God's people, to prepare, to cleanse sin out of our lives, to afflict our souls, search our hearts, and get ready to meet our Maker, as our High Priest is ALMOST DONE!

God's Church is being weighed in the balances. Are we going to unite? Are we going to put away every known sin out of our lives?

Some might ask why Christ has been performing a Most Holy Place ministration for so long...167 years since 1844. But if you look at it from God's perspective of time, 167 years out of 6,000 some years of human history is like a drop in the bucket. While in a sense, we've kept Him waiting too long, he's also hardly been in there.

We are to hasten the Lord's coming according to Scripture. We can help Jesus come sooner!

"looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! (2 Peter 3:12, NASB)

More than all this, those who follow Jesus by faith into the Most Holy Place behold His Holy and Just Law. The Ark of the Covenant. When they behold the law, they will see just how much they need of a loving Saviour.

They look to find out what was in the Ark of the Covenant. The Ten Commandments!

And the Sabbath becomes important to them!

Interestingly, ALL those Adventist Christians who accepted the 1844 message that Christ had moved into the Most Holy Place, ended up accepting the Sabbath message, and then the Lord showed Sister White that the Sabbath would be an especially controverted point in the last days of this earth's history.

The Sabbath is the Sign, Seal, or Mark of His Creative Power and Redemptive Glory--the Seal of His Law.

[BibleOnly]

"And then he said "whoah, Jesus is coming soon, not much to go"."

So was the time that this final process would take, not known ?

"We are to hasten the Lord's coming according to Scripture. We can help Jesus come sooner! "

By what means, do you believe ?

"Interestingly, ALL those Adventist Christians who accepted the 1844 message that Christ had moved into the Most Holy Place, ended up accepting the Sabbath message, and then the Lord showed Sister White that the Sabbath would be an especially controverted point in the last days of this earth's history."

Well, the Sabbath is a lot more convoluted than this, I'd suggest that anyone who swallowed this story, would believe anything you told them after that.

"The Sabbath is the Sign, Seal, or Mark of His Creative Power and Redemptive Glory--the Seal of His Law."

How is the sign and seal of God's power that you don't earn money on Saturdays ? Where does the Bible say this ? When Paul says his preaching is in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, does he mean that people were impressed that he stopped working once a week ? Don't you claim they all were doing that ?

[Gerr]

4. Everything I have asked for is vital to the issue of the Investigative Judgment. Without answers to my questions the Doctrine of the IJ is kaput because the IJ is not a Biblical Doctrine.

Let me ask you, does the Bible teach that there will be a judgment?

[BibleOnly]

The bible teaches that Christians are judged day by day, and that the unsaved are judged at the end of the millennium. It never suggests, AFAIK, that God ever does not know what His judgement is, so if what you're discussing is real, then it's not for God to make His mind up. If it's for someone else to know, then they must be aware of what is happening right now, and if it's for our example and instruction, then we must see some physical evidence of what is happening, for it to be a sign to us.

[miz3]

The bible teaches that Christians are judged day by day, and that the unsaved are judged at the end of the millennium. It never suggests, AFAIK, that God ever does not know what His judgement is, so if what you're discussing is real, then it's not for God to make His mind up. If it's for someone else to know, then they must be aware of what is happening right now, and if it's for our example and instruction, then we must see some physical evidence of what is happening, for it to be a sign to us.

You have a good answer to Gerry's question.

[Windsor]

miz3

Here is the official wording of the investigative judgement:

"There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent."

Where does it mention Satan in there? Why do you think Satan is so important to the investigative judgement?

[BibleOnly]

What 'heavenly intelligences' ? Where are they described in the Bible ? Why are they 'heavenly' but bound by flesh so they need this period of time to perform this judgement ? If the completion of this ministry will cause Jesus to return, how can we make that happen faster, as someone indicated on this thread ?

I believe the starting point of asking things like 'surely God always knows who is saved' led to someone suggesting it was the devil who is being convinced in this period, that's how satan came in to the picture. Read the thread.

[miz3]

miz3

Here is the official wording of the investigative judgement:

"There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent."

Where does it mention Satan in there? Why do you think Satan is so important to the investigative judgement?

1. SDA have always said that the IJ was to answer the grievances and the accusations of satan against God. Your prophet Ellen White has also said so in her writings as well.

2. A reading of Fundamental Doctrine number eight also demonstrates a link to satan and his accusations and grievances against God. I give you this Fundamental Doctrine number eight in whole:

"All humanity is now involved in a great controversy between Christ and Satan regarding the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe. This conflict originated in heaven when a created being, endowed with freedom of choice, in self-exaltation became Satan, God's adversary, and led into rebellion a portion of the angels. He introduced the spirit of rebellion into this world when he led Adam and Eve into sin. This human sin resulted in the distortion of the image of God in humanity, the disordering of the created world, and its eventual devastation at the time of the worldwide flood. Observed by the whole creation, this world became the arena of the universal conflict, out of which the God of love will ultimately be vindicated. To assist His people in this controversy, Christ sends the Holy Spirit and the loyal angels to guide, protect, and sustain them in the way of salvation. (Rev. 12:4-9; Isa. 14:12-14; Eze. 28:12-18; Gen. 3; Rom. 1:19-32; 5:12-21; 8:19-22; Gen. 6-8; 2 Peter 3:6; 1 Cor. 4:9; Heb. 1:14.)"

Notice that both Fundamental Doctrine number eight and Fundamental Doctrine number twenty-four both state that God will be "vindicated".

"Vindicated" from what, from whom?

As I said SDA have always believed and stated that God would be "vindicated" from satan (whom)and satan's accusations/grievances (what).

They have also always linked this "vindication" to the IJ both in their Doctrines as shown above and in the writings of Ellen White. (see red highlighting above for both Doctrines).

Windsor, are you saying that SDA are wrong to believe that satan will accuse/bring grievances during the IJ?

[miz3]

miz3

Here is the official wording of the investigative judgement:

"There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent."

Where does it mention Satan in there? Why do you think Satan is so important to the investigative judgement?

Here is a quote direct from your Prophet Ellen White where she includes satan in the IJ process:

"While Jesus is pleading for the subjects of His grace, Satan accuses them before God as transgressors. The great deceiver has sought to lead them into skepticism, to cause them to lose confidence in God, to separate themselves from His love, and to break His law. Now he points to the record of their lives, to the defects of character, the unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer, to all the sins that he has tempted them to commit, and because of these he claims them as his subjects. {GC 484.1}"

So I guess in the SDA view of things, satan is in the IJ and needs to have whatever accusations/grievances satisfied.

Now again I ask you where in the Bible are these list of grievances against God's Government? Book, Chapter, and verse please.

[BibleOnly]

One other question in all of this - people keep saying to me 'if you do the math, this is how it works out, therefore 1844 is significant'. I presume that as we're talking about grade school math ( x + y = z ), there can be no question that the sum works out as explained. what needs to be established really, is the interpretation of the time period ( if it says 2300 evenings and mornings, isn't that 1650 days ? ) and the starting date. Those are the questions, not how to add 2300 to a number. Prophecy IMO is given more for us to see after the fact that God had a plan, that's why, for example, not many recognised Jesus when He came, despite the many prophecies regarding His coming. So, for this prophecy to mean anything, there needs to be visible evidence that it was fulfilled, otherwise it is meaningless. These are the issues that need to be addressed, along with the ones miz3 keeps asking.

[Gibs]

The text is saying there is 2300 of those evening mornings. that each set is one day. the starting time is made clear at the decree. Prophecy is future history and few understand it, Daniel says only the wise would. That is proven to be the case. No I can see you would not believe and so will not atempt to show you.

To argue or dicuss prophecy with people is useless so each to his own on it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Windsor]

Why are they 'heavenly' but bound by flesh so they need this period of time to perform this judgement ?

How else does something exist if there's no flesh? Are angels nothing but mist? Even mist has mass but the that's still preposterous. It's like those sci-fi shows where someone will suddenly be able to walk through walls but mysteriously enough they don't fall through the ground.

[Windsor]

"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down."

Revelation 12:10

To me, our continued existence on a sinful planet and really the Bible as a whole doesn't make total sense outside the concept of the great controversy. You won't find it written out so plainly in the Bible as it is in the book by that name, but you can find it in the Bible if you study it thoroughly.

[BobRyan]

Amen!

Daniel and Revelation (and of course the book of Genesis chapters 1-6) help us understand the concept of free will and the reasons that we have had 6000 years of sin and suffering - rather than "6 minutes of sin".

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

For John317, Lysmachus, and anyone else who can.

Here are the questions again, so you won't lose track of what to answer.

List the grievances satan has against God and Jesus Christ. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

Book: Revelation Chapter: 12 Verse: 10 He is called "the accuser". What are his accusations?

Book: Genesis Chapter: 2 & 3 Verse: 2:16; 3:1-4

As with any rebellion, there are issues by the rebels whether legitimate or totally unfounded. It takes a little bit of digging to flesh them out. Here are a few.

(1) God is a liar. He does not mean what He says. Book, chapter & verse is Gen 3:1-3. Of one Tree God had this to say: ESV | ‎Ge 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, ‎17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Satan directly contradicted what God said: a) He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” ESV | ‎Ge 3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

MOST of the world still believe these two Satanic lies. God said, "Remember the Sabbath..." and people think He doesn't mean it. He said if you eat the fruit, "you shall surely die." Even most Christians don't believe what God said. They believe instead the devil's lie that they don't really die.

(2)God's created beings serve Him only out of fear or because of the goodies He gives them. ESV | ‎Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? ‎10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. ‎11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.”

(3) A believer/follower of God will sacrifice loyalty to God to save his/her life. ESV | ‎Job 2:4 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.”

(4) Supremacy. Book: Isaiah Chapter: 14 Verse: 12-14

(5) Pride. Book: Ezekiel Chapter: 28 Verse: 14-17

Quote:

2. Where in the Bible does it say the angels and the unfallen beings had doubts about God and Jesus Christ and thus, the Investigative Judgment was intended to answer their questions and doubts. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

Book: Revelation Chapter: 12 Verse: 7-12

"Now war arose in heaven," 12:7. War over what? See the answers to ?#1. The dragon/Satan took with him in his rebellion 1/3 of the angels, 12:4. Now do a little thinking. If he could deceive or persuade 1/3 of the angels, is it unreasonable to think that there were some who developed some doubts or questions about God but did not join in the rebellion?

Quote:

3. Or do you admit that because you said that the angels and unfallen beings no longer have questions and doubts then their is no need of an Investigative Judgment?

Please give Scripture Book, Chapter, and verse and clarification of which way it is.

1. God's truthfulness has to be proven. That people have been dying since A & E ate the fruit proves His truthfulness. The ultimate vindication comes with the eradication of sin & sinners from the universe, Rev 20.

2. Job and many saints have proven Satan wrong that believers serve God out of fear or for the goodies they receive, or that their lives are more important than loyalty to God.

3. Whatever doubts the angels that did not rebel may have had about God was dispelled when the Creator hang on the Cross. Jn 12:31

Much more could be said, but that requires much more time & words that this format does not allow.

[BobRyan]

The text is saying there is 2300 of those evening mornings. that each set is one day. the starting time is made clear at the decree. Prophecy is future history and few understand it, Daniel says only the wise would.

Amen!

And what is interesting is that almost all denominations "get the point" that the 70 weeks of Daniel in Dan 9 (490 days) are in fact 490 years!

In Dan 8 this rule is used consistently as it is with Dan 9. In Dan 8 the question "how long is the vision" in 8:13 addresses the question of how long a period of time is covered by the vision of Dan 8.

Clearly it begins with a time before the Greek Empire has risen to power - a time of dominance for the Medo-Persian empire. This is explicit in the text. That start point requirement is sufficiently met by the Dan 9 specification that it starts it 457 B.C. at the time of the rebuilding of the city.

From the that point to the division of the Greek empire - is wayyy more than 7 or 8 literal years so we are way beyond claiming that the 2300 days of Dan 8 do not fit with the 490 days of Dan 9 in day-for-year fashion.

Simply cant be missed!

in Christ,

Bob