1844

[miz3]

Note to Miz3: I noticed that while you say that you do not have time to read the works we have recommended, saying you only want to read inspired sources and that archaeologists, linguists, people who studied at say Harvard or teach at Hebrew University etc. are just heathen. However you seem to find a lot of time to read those who are critical of the Investigative Judgment. I'm sorry but I did not realize that Walter Rea and these others were inspired. But they must be since you don't use your excuses for not reading works that support and explain the investigative judgment against not reading them. Or am I misunderstanding your logic as to why you have pleanty of time to read and quote critics of the Investigative Judgment, but that you can't read the other side of the issue?

These other sources are indeed not inspired. However they do shed some light which balances the "self claiming" statements used by SDA Church .org.

Second it does raise issues as to whether Ellen White is really a prophet.

Third the Bible does not talk in any way shape or form about Ellen White specifically so we have only these nonBiblical sources to evaluate Ellen White.

Fourth Ellen White's critics are often too much the other way just as her supporters are too much their way. Often her critics are just acting out of hate and some of their criticisms are just plain junk. On the other hand her supporters are sooooo fanatical about her that they will do anything to defend her including the ridiculous.

Fifth given the fanatical at both ends it is difficult to cull through the junk to find anything both sides say that is credible. I have in my quoting of her critics tried to use only that which makes sense and appears to be verifiable and true.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

There is only "One Judgment" and that comes after the Second Coming. The "righteous" need no judgment because Christ has already paid there penalty John Chapter Ten says that God/Jesus Christ holds the Righteous in His Hand and no one can pluck them out of His Hand. Thus God needs no judgment of the Righteous.

You are contradicting what is clearly written in Scripture.

ESV | ‎2 Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

ESV | ‎Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Why do ALL face Judgment? Because NOT ALL who say, "Lord, Lord" are known by Jesus or really know Jesus. Wheat & tares grow in the church. Good & bad fish are brought in by the net. The wheat kernel has to be separated from chaff. Ditto sheep from the goats, etc.

While ALL face judgment, the righteous will NOT be condemned. Judgment will VINDICATE them from the accusations of the devil who accuse them "day & night" before God, Rev 13. No judgment, no vindication. No judgment, no kingdom inheritance, Dan 7.

Quote:

Nothing can be "cleansed" until the wicked are destroyed.

Again, you are contradicting Holy Writ.

ESV | ‎1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If you are looking for cleansing from sin after Jesus comes, that will be too late for you, my friend.

NIV84 | ‎Heb 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1. 2Corinthians 5:10 which you quote above is not talking about the Investigative Judgment. This text merely states that there will be a Judgment and that God will Judge everyone according to His Will. This Judgment is ongoing and has been since the Fall of Adam. For example God Judged King Saul to be lost way back in the days before even King Saul died. He Judged King Saul lost while King Saul was alive.

God also Judged King David to among the saved see 1Kings chapter 14 verse eight. God also Judged Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as being saved see Matthew 8:11. Again, at the Last Supper Jesus told the Disciples that they also would be saved apparently they had already been Judged.

There will also be Judgment after the Second Coming when all who have ever lived will gather before God.

The bottom line is that 2Corinthians chapter five verse ten is NOT TALKING ABOUT THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT.

The same thing is true about the Hebrews 9:27 text. It is not talking about the Investigative Judgment at all.

2. John 1:9 does say that God will forgive us and thus we are made clean by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

I should have in both these cases you are raising used better communications. Of course we sinners are made clean now. However the Universe itself is not fully clean until the wicked, satan, death are destroyed forever. As long as the wicked, satan, death exist the Universe will have in it pollution.

This still does not show that there is an Investigative Judgment.

In fact the cases of King Saul, King David, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the Disciples show that their is no Investigative Judgment because their Judgment came in the long, long ago. Some like the Disciples and King Saul were Judged even before they saw death.

[Gerr]

Where does it say that the "angels/unfallen universe" comprehended more but not all?

1. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

2. Does Ellen White say that the "angels and unfallen universe" comprehended more but not all?

If so please the quote and source from Ellen White that says this about the Cross and how she links this to the need for the IJ.

ESV | ‎1 Co 4:9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men.

NASB95 | ‎Ro 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; ‎25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

When God "displayed publicly" His Son "to demonstrate His righteousness," do you think the angels, men, and the inhabitants of other worlds learned anything? When you look at/to the Cross, do you learn anything?

[Gerr]

1. 2Corinthians 5:10 which you quote above is not talking about the Investigative Judgment. This text merely states that there will be a Judgment and that God will Judge everyone according to His Will. This Judgment is ongoing and has been since the Fall of Adam. For example God Judged King Saul to be lost way back in the days before even King Saul died. He Judged King Saul lost while King Saul was alive.

God will have a judgment but no investigation of the facts? That kind of judgment takes place, to my knowledge, only in tyrannical countries. But even there, they try to present some semblance of investigating the facts. Is God a tyrant so as to make judgments without presenting the facts?

Yes, King Saul was judged and found wanting by the "watchers", just like King Belshazzar. But their judgment only had to do with the present life they then had. Their judgment with reference to the second death is yet future.

Quote:

God also Judged King David to among the saved see 1Kings chapter 14 verse eight. God also Judged Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as being saved see Matthew 8:11. Again, at the Last Supper Jesus told the Disciples that they also would be saved apparently they had already been Judged.

As was previously pointed out, the Judgment is NOT to inform God or for God to discover who is saved and who is not. God knew/knows before hand. But the Judgment including the IJ, will show why an adulterer and murderer like David has the right to be in the kingdom. It will also show why Saul who, from a human point of view, seemed to have committed less heinous crimes and yet won't be there.

Quote:

There will also be Judgment after the Second Coming when all who have ever lived will gather before God.

Now, tell me how the righteous could receive their crowns & rewards at the Second Coming BEFORE they are judged to have the right to the first resurrection or glorification only to be judged AFTER the Second Coming? IOW, how can God give a verdict for the righteous before a judgment? Read Dan 7 again. The righteous receive their kingdom inheritance ONLY after their vindication in a judgment.

Quote:

The bottom line is that 2Corinthians chapter five verse ten is NOT TALKING ABOUT THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT.

Rendering a verdict/judgment without investigation is prejudice. A righteous Judge would never do that.

Here is HOW God runs His court:

NIV84 | ‎Dt 17:2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, ‎3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, ‎4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel,

NASB95 | ‎Dt 19:18 “The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness and he has accused his brother falsely,

Quote:

The same thing is true about the Hebrews 9:27 text. It is not talking about the Investigative Judgment at all.

Then what judgment is Heb 9:27 talking about if it does not include an investigation?

Quote:

2. John 1:9 does say that God will forgive us and thus we are made clean by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

I should have in both these cases you are raising used better communications. Of course we sinners are made clean now. However the Universe itself is not fully clean until the wicked, satan, death are destroyed forever. As long as the wicked, satan, death exist the Universe will have in it pollution.

Agreed.

Quote:

This still does not show that there is an Investigative Judgment.

In fact the cases of King Saul, King David, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the Disciples show that their is no Investigative Judgment because their Judgment came in the long, long ago. Some like the Disciples and King Saul were Judged even before they saw death.

See my comments above.

[BobRyan]

There is only "One Judgment" and that comes after the Second Coming. The "righteous" need no judgment because Christ has already paid there penalty John Chapter Ten says that God/Jesus Christ holds the Righteous in His Hand and no one can pluck them out of His Hand. Thus God needs no judgment of the Righteous.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Where does it say that the "angels/unfallen universe" comprehended more but not all?

1. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

2. Does Ellen White say that the "angels and unfallen universe" comprehended more but not all?

If so please the quote and source from Ellen White that says this about the Cross and how she links this to the need for the IJ.

ESV | ‎1 Co 4:9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men.

NASB95 | ‎Ro 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; ‎25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

When God "displayed publicly" His Son "to demonstrate His righteousness," do you think the angels, men, and the inhabitants of other worlds learned anything? When you look at/to the Cross, do you learn anything?

1. 1 Corinthians 4:9 does not say that the Angels learned more about about the Cross than they did before. It just says that they are observing what is going on. I never ever said that the Angels were not observing. They certainly are observing as this text points out. But it does not say that they learned more than they did before.

Saying that the Angels "learned more than before" is a human addition to the text. The text itself does not say that.

2. Romans 3:24 also does not say that the Angels learned more than they did before. It does say that God operated out in the open for all to see. But again, it says absolutely nothing about Angels learning more than they knew before.

3. Yes, Gerry, we humans learn more. How do we know that? We know by our own experience of knowing more as well as the testimony of other humans saying they have learned more.

However, as to Angels and the unfallen universe they have never ever testified that they have learned more than they knew before. At least the Bible and the Bible only does not reveal that these "heavenly beings" learned any more than they did before.

Ellen White your Prophet says such beings "learned more" however Ellen White is not the Bible. She is not part of the "canon". Many SDA Church .org persons have made/use Ellen White as if she were part to the "canon" but she is not. She is also not inspired like the those who wrote the "canon".

Ellen White and all those "scholars/expositors/etc. that predated their views before 1844 are not "inspired" and are not part of the "canon" and they do not carry any more weight in the discussion than you or I.

4. I will personally testify before you and everyone else that I indeed learn more and more every time I look/study the Cross/God/Jesus Christ from the Bible and the Bible only.

[miz3]

God will have a judgment but no investigation of the facts? That kind of judgment takes place, to my knowledge, only in tyrannical countries. But even there, they try to present some semblance of investigating the facts. Is God a tyrant so as to make judgments without presenting the facts?

Yes, King Saul was judged and found wanting by the "watchers", just like King Belshazzar. But their judgment only had to do with the present life they then had. Their judgment with reference to the second death is yet future.

1. God will have a Judgment but no investigation because God does not need an investigation to know the Truth. God is the Truth. For God all knowledge is always "present". God does not need to wait for some future to "know".

God is not obligated in the least at all to present the FACTS. You and I are obligated because we are the peans. The Creator is never ever obligated to justify Himself to the Creation.

Using Paul's illustration in Romans chapter nine. Does the sculptor ever ever justify what he/she is doing to the clay? The answer is NO! NO! NO!.

Gerry, we humans are literally(not figuratively) clay and God is the Sculptor(not figuratively but literally) and as such God does not tell us nor does God let us know all the FACTS. This has always been true.

You define "tyrant" as a person who does not tell all the FACTS. I think "tyrant" means something completely different.

If God does not tell you all the FACTS about the Creation as found in Genesis do you call Him a "Tyrant" for that? If God does not tell you why He allowed millions of Jews/other humans to die horrible deaths in WWII do you call God a "Tyrant"?

Do you every time God does not tell you the whole FACTS so you know exactly what He knows all the time, do you call God a "Tyrant"?

Surely you can see how ridiculous this concept is? The FACT is you will never ever know all that God knows no matter if you live with God for "eternity". God will always have FACTS that you are not and never will be privy to. Are you still going to maintain that God is a "Tyrant" because you don't know everything God knows?

2. King Saul was judged by God to be "lost forever" and burn in Hell like all the other wicked.

The "watchers" did not judge King Saul. God is the only Judge. His view is the only view that counts. If God's Creation differs from God that is too bad, because God's Judgment is still the only One that counts.

If you differ from God you will burn too. That is just the way it is.

God's Judgment of King Saul had to do with more than this Life. It had to do with Eternity. Read the story again, you will find that God "Rejected Saul" permanently. God did not say "later in heaven I will change my judgment and you will have a chance to be saved". NO, Gerry the sentence on Saul was/is irrevocable. Saul the King will be lost forever.

[miz3]

As was previously pointed out, the Judgment is NOT to inform God or for God to discover who is saved and who is not. God knew/knows before hand. But the Judgment including the IJ, will show why an adulterer and murderer like David has the right to be in the kingdom. It will also show why Saul who, from a human point of view, seemed to have committed less heinous crimes and yet won't be there.

That Judgment takes place after the Second Coming.

In addition according to SDA Church .org Doctrine King Saul would not come up in the Investigative Judgment. Only the "so-called" people of God come up then.

The wicked are judged, according SDA Church .org orthodoxy after the Second Coming.

You are correct that God does not need any "investigation" to know anything because God already knows everything.

As we pointed out previously God does not tell the "clay" everything. God does not tell the Angels and unfallen universe everything either. God does not ask them to "ratify" His Judgment because no such "ratification" is stated anywhere in the Bible and the Bible only.

Other sources (extra Biblical) yes, the Bible and the Bible only, NO.

[miz3]

Now, tell me how the righteous could receive their crowns & rewards at the Second Coming BEFORE they are judged to have the right to the first resurrection or glorification only to be judged AFTER the Second Coming? IOW, how can God give a verdict for the righteous before a judgment? Read Dan 7 again. The righteous receive their kingdom inheritance ONLY after their vindication in a judgment.

Because as you and I and others have pointed out already that God needs not "judgment process" to know who is saved or lost. Thus, God simply acts on His Knowledge.

This is why God could say that David is saved and King Saul is lost. This why God could say in the Bible that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were saved. This why God could say that the Disciples were saved also.

God is the ONLY ONE deciding who is saved and who is lost.

No one else is deciding anything.

The Judgment as stated in the Bible and the Bible takes place after the Second Coming. This Judgment is not for your benefit and/or mine and/or anyone else. It is for the benefit of God so that He can make a display of His Greatness/Mercy to the saved and a display of His Anger/Hatred against the wicked. It is not so you/I/anyone else will be "informed"/"ratify" God's moves.

It appears to me that you have a very "human centric" view of God. IOW you explain God as if God is some "equal" with us humans and as such needs to be watched so that we know every move and all of its ramifications or we might develop "doubts/question" about God and His Government.

God is not like that at all. God is way above us. God is because He is. God is beyond questioning/doubting/watching.

We watch our human leaders because they cannot be trusted. If you cannot trust/will not trust God completely the Bible says that those humans will burn in Hell. They burn in Hell because they trust something else other than God.

To trust God means, trusting in Him whether God tells you stuff or not.

The Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is nothing more than saying God cannot be trusted so we need to keep a hawk eye on Him or we will develop doubts/questions and thus our trust will deteriorate.

This evil unBiblical Doctrine actually accuses the Angels/unfallen universe of not completely "trusting in God" which the Bible and the Bible only states is a sin and those who engage in this sin will burn in Hell.

This IJ/Sanctuary Doctrine of the SDA Chruch .org is indefensible from the Bible and the Bible only. In fact it is a blasphemy against God and the Holy Angels of Heaven.

[miz3]

Rendering a verdict/judgment without investigation is prejudice. A righteous Judge would never do that.

Here is HOW God runs His court:

NIV84 | ‎Dt 17:2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, ‎3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, ‎4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel,

NASB95 | ‎Dt 19:18 “The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness and he has accused his brother falsely,

You are correct Gerry that a verdict/judgment without investigation is prejudiced.

The FACT is Gerry that God is prejudiced. He is prejudiced against evil and prejudiced for good. God is not a "neutral party" like we expect our human judges to be. If you think God is "neutral" then you do not know God and you do not know the God of the Bible and the Bible only.

In fact Matthew chapter 7 and Matthew chapter 25 both state that the only basis upon which humans are saved is if "God knows them" and the only basis on which they are lost(burn in Hell) is if "God does NOT KNOW THEM".

God does not make his Judgments like we do in a "human court". This is not Biblical.

Likening God and His Judgment to the sinful practices we humans do on this earth is insulting and blasphemous to God/Jesus Christ.

As I pointed out earlier that Revelation in speaking of the Judgment does so in terms of God showing His Mercy/Greatness to the Righteous(saved) and His Hatred/Anger to the Evil(lost) who will burn in Hell.

You see Gerry the Bible and the Bible only demonstrate that God does not run His "court" the same way we are to and do run our courts on this sinful old earth. Like Paul says that is to bring God down to our putrid level.

Again, your words demonstrate that you have a "human centric" view of God instead the Bible and the Bible only view of God which is "God centric". There is a infinite difference between these two views of God by Christians/nonchristians on this planet.

One view paints God as being merely humanlike. The other view places God way above humans who acts/speaks like God which is far above the ways of humanity (see Isaiah chapter fifty-five).

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

You are contradicting what is clearly written in Scripture.

ESV | ‎2 Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ' date=' so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

ESV | ‎Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Why do ALL face Judgment? Because NOT ALL who say, "Lord, Lord" are known by Jesus or really know Jesus. Wheat & tares grow in the church. Good & bad fish are brought in by the net. The wheat kernel has to be separated from chaff. Ditto sheep from the goats, etc.

While ALL face judgment, the righteous will NOT be condemned. Judgment will VINDICATE them from the accusations of the devil who accuse them "day & night" before God, Rev 13. No judgment, no vindication. No judgment, no kingdom inheritance, Dan 7.[/color']

Quote:

Nothing can be "cleansed" until the wicked are destroyed.

All true.

Both Dan 7 and Rev 14:6-7 make it very clear that the future investigative judgment happens before the 2nd coming.

Originally Posted By: miz3

1. 2Corinthians 5:10 which you quote above is not talking about the Investigative Judgment.

No - in fact it is talking about the Dan 7 investigative judgment because Paul (the author of 2Cor 5:10) makes it very clear in Roaans 2:13-16 that the future judgment that is part of the Gospel he claims to be preaching - is in fact the Dan 7 investigative judgment where "it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the doers of the Law WILL BE justified...on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of all mankind".

the Bottom line is that Paul's future judgment (future Gospel Judgment) was the very same thing as we find in scripture in Dan 7 -- the future investigative judgment.

in Christ,

Bob

Incoherent, confused, gibberish, etc.

[Gerr]

ESV | ‎1 Co 4:9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men.

NASB95 | ‎Ro 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; ‎25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

So what's the point of all that public demonstration of His righteousness by allowing His Son to suffer shame publicly for the angels also to see if they had nothing to learn about God's love and God's righteousness? Remember the devil's accusations that I presented? One of the charges was that God is a liar. Paul says, ‎‎ESV | ‎Ro 3:4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.”

God being judged? How is that? In a sense God is being tried in the universe of public opinion whether Satan's charges are true or not. So when you glibly claim that the angels learned nothing when they observed Jesus hanging on the Cross boggles my mind, considering that 1/3 of the angels believed Satan's accusations.

God does not make his Judgments like we do in a "human court". This is not Biblical.

Likening God and His Judgment to the sinful practices we humans do on this earth is insulting and blasphemous to God/Jesus Christ.

[color:blue]

So you would not be the least bit curious if your pastor or if your father or mother whom you thought to be most godly, winds up in hell? Heaven forbid that that should happen, but I'm just wondering what your reaction would be if that were to happen. Or wouldn't you be the least bit curious why Hitler or Stalin are in heaven if they were to be there?

I don't know why you keep dragging EGW into the discussion. I have not made one reference to her writing. ALL I have given you are: book, chapter, & verse from Scripture.

[BobRyan]

As was previously pointed out, the Judgment is NOT to inform God or for God to discover who is saved and who is not. God knew/knows before hand. But the Judgment including the IJ, will show why an adulterer and murderer like David has the right to be in the kingdom. It will also show why Saul who, from a human point of view, seemed to have committed less heinous crimes and yet won't be there.

[BobRyan]

Now, tell me how the righteous could receive their crowns & rewards at the Second Coming BEFORE they are judged to have the right to the first resurrection or glorification only to be judged AFTER the Second Coming? IOW, how can God give a verdict for the righteous before a judgment? Read Dan 7 again. The righteous receive their kingdom inheritance ONLY after their vindication in a judgment.

[miz3]

ESV | ‎1 Co 4:9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men.

NASB95 | ‎Ro 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; ‎25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

So what's the point of all that public demonstration of His righteousness by allowing His Son to suffer shame publicly for the angels also to see if they had nothing to learn about God's love and God's righteousness? Remember the devil's accusations that I presented? One of the charges was that God is a liar. Paul says, ‎‎ESV | ‎Ro 3:4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.”

God being judged? How is that? In a sense God is being tried in the universe of public opinion whether Satan's charges are true or not. So when you glibly claim that the angels learned nothing when they observed Jesus hanging on the Cross boggles my mind, considering that 1/3 of the angels believed Satan's accusations.

Originally Posted By: miz

God does not make his Judgments like we do in a "human court". This is not Biblical.

Likening God and His Judgment to the sinful practices we humans do on this earth is insulting and blasphemous to God/Jesus Christ.

[color:blue]

So you would not be the least bit curious if your pastor or if your father or mother whom you thought to be most godly, winds up in hell? Heaven forbid that that should happen, but I'm just wondering what your reaction would be if that were to happen. Or wouldn't you be the least bit curious why Hitler or Stalin are in heaven if they were to be there?

I don't know why you keep dragging EGW into the discussion. I have not made one reference to her writing. ALL I have given you are: book, chapter, & verse from Scripture.

1. Romans 3:4 does not say that God will be judged.

"What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:

“So that you may be proved right when you speak

and prevail when you judge."

Romans 3:3-4. (NIV)

The text says, that God will be the Judge.

Again let us look at the whole passage from the Version you used, the English Standard Version (ESV).

"Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, (A)the Jews were entrusted with (B)the oracles of God. 3 ©What if some were unfaithful? (D)Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! (E)Let God be true though (F)every one were a liar, as it is written,

(G)“That you may be justified in your words,

and prevail when you (H)are judged.”

5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict (I)wrath on us? ((J)I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could (K)God judge the world? 7 But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, (L)why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not (M)do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just."

Romans 3:1-8.

The underlined portion in verse four does not refer to God/Jesus Christ. It refers to the human entity that is a liar.

Notice the next sentence refers to our "unrighteousness" as serving to show the "glory of God and His Righteousness". Notice also that verse six states that God will judge the whole world and that even though our "unrighteousness" actually served to enhance God's Righteousness God is still just in destroying the "unrighteous".

This text is not saying in any way, shape, or form that God is on trial and will be judged. It is saying that the "unrighteous human" is being judged and Judged by God.

God does not govern by public opinion. God is the Creator, as such He does not need our approval anymore than the Sculptor needs the approval of the clay.

The Sculptor decides whether the clay is good or bad. The Sculptor never ever lets the clay decide anything about anything. (See Romans chapter nine). The "clay" never ever decides whether the Sculptor is doing a good job or a bad job.

And thus, neither do any of God's Creation decide whether God is doing a good job and or a bad job.

Humans only get the "information" God wants them to see anyway. We could never be sure that God is giving us all the information. There is no "unbiased" broker who holds all the info between God and us. God controls all the flow of information existent. He alone decides who and what gets what information.

Thus, no matter what God showed you, even if God said that is all the info I have, you could never ever be sure that God is not holding some tid bit or two back that would make Him look bad. This is not only true about us humans but is true for all the Creation. We can never ever be actually sure we are getting the whole story.

God being God could hide voluminous amounts of data and no one in the entire universe would ever know. God could plant evidence and no one would never ever know that it was planted and did not actually happen. God could easily make you think that it was real when in truth it was not real. There would nothing you could do about it.

In the end the bottom line is that we have to "TRUST" God because we can never ever really be sure that we have all the info. Thus, an Investigative Judgment is a "USELESS" device. It would prove nothing. It would not prove that God is trustworthy because you will/could never ever sure that you are seeing all the data. You have to "TRUST" God that He is giving you all the data and that is the same thing as TRUSTING GOD NOW WITHOUT AN INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT.

Trust is trust regardless of the quantity of information/data. We have enough data/info now to TRUST God. We don't need any more data/info. (Doesn't Ellen White your Prophet say something like that as well, that we have enough info to Trust God even though not every question is answered).

If your Prophet says something like that why cannot you be like her?

The IJ is not Biblical nor is it logical.

2. No I would not be curious why Hitler/Stalin was in Heaven. Nor would I be curious about loved ones who were lost. You see I trust God right now fully. He does not owe me an explanation. If God gives me one fine, but God is under no obligation even if I were curious.

I trust God's Judgment to anyone else's judgment. So I would prefer to let God Judge and everyone else including me be quiet.

That does not mean I understand God's Judgment. It means only that I TRUST God's Judgment and have no need/desire to check God to see if He made the correct decision.

That is the fundamental thing wrong with the IJ. It says God cannot be trusted so we need to have the Angels and the unfallen universe check up on God to make sure that God did it right. Besides those Angels and the unfallen universe don't trust God because they have doubts/questions that need to be relieved and satisfied so they can "trust" again.

The Bible and the Bible never ever says that God cannot be trusted at any moment of anyone's existence under any circumstances.

Surely you can see how ridiculous and horrid this doctrine is. How insulting to the God of Heaven. How insulting and treacherous it is to paint the Angels and unfallen universe as not trusting totally in God.

Yet that is exactly what the Bible and the Bible only tells us humans on earth to do, and that is "TRUST GOD WITH OUR HEART (TOTALLY) AND WITHOUT ANY RESERVATION WHATSOEVER".

If the Bible and the Bible says that then the Bible and Bible only cannot on the other hand contradict itself by saying except in the Investigative Judgment.

3. I keep dragging Ellen White into it for two reasons:

a. To show you that SDA Doctrine/SDA humans in practice do not agree with Ellen White.

b. To show also how wrong Ellen White is because she disagrees with the Bible.

In addition it is because of Ellen White and the 1844 Disappointment that SDA Church .org believe in the Investigative Judgment to cover their failed belief of October 22, 1844 and the huge embarrassment that ensued. The Bible and the Bible only has nothing to do whatsoever with it. It was all about trying to explain the huge error and make themselves legitimate.

Instead of admitting their mistake they concocted a story that has no Biblical basis and then tried to fit texts that were never ever meant to used in such a manner to fit this horrid IJ/Sanctuary doctrine which is so insulting to God, the Angels/unfallen universe and the Bible.

The saying is true in this case:

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.

[Gerr]

1. Romans 3:4 does not say that God will be judged.

"What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:

“So that you may be proved right when you speak

and prevail when you judge."

Romans 3:3-4. (NIV)

The text says, that God will be the Judge.

The NIV translation of the verse is problematic because the verb krinesthai is in the passive voice.

Check it out. Therefore the correct translation is as rendered in:

ESV - “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.”

NASB - “THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”

KJV - That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Young's Literal Translation: ‘That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.’

Look at what the verse is itself saying. If God is not being judged, why does He need to be JUSTIFIED in His words?

The judgment of public opinion was that Judge Ito was not very competent in the OJ trial. God must "demonstrate His righteousness" in His disposition of sin & sinners in a way that engenders confidence, otherwise, if there are any doubts about His competence & righteousness, sin could arise again.

[Gerr]

In the end the bottom line is that we have to "TRUST" God because we can never ever really be sure that we have all the info. Thus, an Investigative Judgment is a "USELESS" device. It would prove nothing. It would not prove that God is trustworthy because you will/could never ever sure that you are seeing all the data. You have to "TRUST" God that He is giving you all the data and that is the same thing as TRUSTING GOD NOW WITHOUT AN INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT.

One of Satan's charges was that God is a liar; He could not be trusted. He doesn't tell the truth. God is trying to clear His name and establish His credibility. And all you could say is for Him to proclaim: "Just trust Me?" How much better to lay everything out in the OPEN where even the very secret thoughts are laid bare? How many times has God been blamed for all kinds of calamities as, "acts of God?" How many times has God been questioned by even faithful Christians, "WHY?"

No, no. All of God's decisions regarding sin & sinners will be laid out in the open. No secrets, so that there will never be any doubts about His righteousness whatsoever.

You may not be curious why your godly parents are lost (I'm not saying that they are, but if they were), but others who lose loved ones who they thought for sure are saved might want to know. For the victims of Hitler & Stalin, they might want to know.

Quote:

The Bible and the Bible never ever says that God cannot be trusted at any moment of anyone's existence under any circumstances.

But He has an enemy who claims that God cannot be trusted. Even the angels are amazed at God's plan of salvation:

ESV | ‎1 Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

"It is all so wonderful that even the angels are eagerly watching these things happen." NLT

"Eagerly watching these things happen," why?

"These are things which even the angels would like to understand." GNT

Contrary to your notion that angels had/have nothing to learn about the Cross, there are many things "which even the angels would like to understand."

Quote:

In addition it is because of Ellen White and the 1844 Disappointment that SDA Church .org believe in the Investigative Judgment to cover their failed belief of October 22, 1844 and the huge embarrassment that ensued. The Bible and the Bible only has nothing to do whatsoever with it. It was all about trying to explain the huge error and make themselves legitimate.

Instead of admitting their mistake they concocted a story that has no Biblical basis and then tried to fit texts that were never ever meant to used in such a manner to fit this horrid IJ/Sanctuary doctrine which is so insulting to God, the Angels/unfallen universe and the Bible.

The saying is true in this case:

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.

That there is a Judgment Day is a basic Christian doctrine that practically ALL churches that I know of subscribe to. What you are denying is the fact that this judgment is not done secretly but that it is done openly. Look at the judgment scene in Dan 7. ALL THE BOOKS ARE OPENNED, WITNESSED BY MYRIADS & MYRIADS OF ANGELS. All secrets are laid bare. To separate goats from the sheep, the Judge HAS to investigate and check out thoroughly if there are goat in sheep's clothing.

If you can't see the necessity of an open judgment that others see, that doesn't mean it's not there.

"Now we see through a glass darkly," or to paraphrase another translation, "now we see only puzzling reflections in a mirror," but then face to face." "Now we KNOW IN PART, but then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

BTW, you have been questioning SDA doctrines every chance you have, claiming it's full of contradictions and errors. I have asked you to show me the church whose doctrines are most consistently Biblical so I can join it, so far you haven't done it. Is there such a one?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz

1. Romans 3:4 does not say that God will be judged.

"What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:

“So that you may be proved right when you speak

and prevail when you judge."

Romans 3:3-4. (NIV)

The text says, that God will be the Judge.

The NIV translation of the verse is problematic because the verb krinesthai is in the passive voice.

Check it out. Therefore the correct translation is as rendered in:

ESV - “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.”

NASB - “THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”

KJV - That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Young's Literal Translation: ‘That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.’

Look at what the verse is itself saying. If God is not being judged, why does He need to be JUSTIFIED in His words?

The judgment of public opinion was that Judge Ito was not very competent in the OJ trial. God must "demonstrate His righteousness" in His disposition of sin & sinners in a way that engenders confidence, otherwise, if there are any doubts about His competence & righteousness, sin could arise again.

It doesn't matter God is still not the one being judged.

Humans are the ones being judged in this passage.

[Kevin H]

1. You have one problem with this theory and that is your Prophet Ellen White says that at the Cross the Angels and the unfallen universe no longer had doubts and questions because they see the exact nature of sin, satan, etc. and what the end of such things would be.

Even though they made the decisions that closed their probabation at the cross, that still does not mean that they learned everything. The plan of redemption will be our study through out eternity. The Investigative Judgment is where they get to review for deeper understanding, and we get to study the Bible like never before for deeper understanding.

And no, we don't just base on Marvin Moore, but have others who study, both from more conservative and more liberal approaches. We are not an isolated religion that just holds our ideas independent of anyone else and not conserned about other Bible study. We study and work in other educational institutions, we have retired ministers who pastor non-adventist churches which could not afford a pastor was it not for this volunetter. We have a huge interdeniominational chaplancy program for the military healthcare prisons etc. as well as others who have inderdenominational ministeries. Also, we have non-adventists study at our Seminary for advance degrees and we need to remain credible to all of them. We are active in the society of Biblical literature, archaeological societies and other Biblical Scholarship societies and have had to prove to them that we are credible. Other denominations are realizing that the don't have a developed doctrine of the judgment and a number of them are coming to us to study the investigative judgment and using that as a frame work to build their own doctrine of judgment on.

Why do you read and quote, not a scholar, but a pastor who was a simple Fundamentalist and disgruntelled that he was not voted conference president, and realized that Mrs. White did not fit his fundamentalist presupositions and brought up the same arguments that Canright brought up, except that Canright lived with out the archaeologicl discoveries that Rea lives in ignorance of, and Canright did a much better job and was much more honest and was using the best knowlege avalible to him (and again Rea has ingored the evidence avalible to him). Why not check out those who are in diologue with other denominations and the Society of Biblical Literature etc.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz

In the end the bottom line is that we have to "TRUST" God because we can never ever really be sure that we have all the info. Thus, an Investigative Judgment is a "USELESS" device. It would prove nothing. It would not prove that God is trustworthy because you will/could never ever sure that you are seeing all the data. You have to "TRUST" God that He is giving you all the data and that is the same thing as TRUSTING GOD NOW WITHOUT AN INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT.

One of Satan's charges was that God is a liar; He could not be trusted. He doesn't tell the truth. God is trying to clear His name and establish His credibility. And all you could say is for Him to proclaim: "Just trust Me?" How much better to lay everything out in the OPEN where even the very secret thoughts are laid bare? How many times has God been blamed for all kinds of calamities as, "acts of God?" How many times has God been questioned by even faithful Christians, "WHY?"

No, no. All of God's decisions regarding sin & sinners will be laid out in the open. No secrets, so that there will never be any doubts about His righteousness whatsoever.

You may not be curious why your godly parents are lost (I'm not saying that they are, but if they were), but others who lose loved ones who they thought for sure are saved might want to know. For the victims of Hitler & Stalin, they might want to know.

Quote:

The Bible and the Bible never ever says that God cannot be trusted at any moment of anyone's existence under any circumstances.

But He has an enemy who claims that God cannot be trusted. Even the angels are amazed at God's plan of salvation:

ESV | ‎1 Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

"It is all so wonderful that even the angels are eagerly watching these things happen." NLT

"Eagerly watching these things happen," why?

"These are things which even the angels would like to understand." GNT

Contrary to your notion that angels had/have nothing to learn about the Cross, there are many things "which even the angels would like to understand."

Quote:

In addition it is because of Ellen White and the 1844 Disappointment that SDA Church .org believe in the Investigative Judgment to cover their failed belief of October 22, 1844 and the huge embarrassment that ensued. The Bible and the Bible only has nothing to do whatsoever with it. It was all about trying to explain the huge error and make themselves legitimate.

Instead of admitting their mistake they concocted a story that has no Biblical basis and then tried to fit texts that were never ever meant to used in such a manner to fit this horrid IJ/Sanctuary doctrine which is so insulting to God, the Angels/unfallen universe and the Bible.

The saying is true in this case:

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.

That there is a Judgment Day is a basic Christian doctrine that practically ALL churches that I know of subscribe to. What you are denying is the fact that this judgment is not done secretly but that it is done openly. Look at the judgment scene in Dan 7. ALL THE BOOKS ARE OPENNED, WITNESSED BY MYRIADS & MYRIADS OF ANGELS. All secrets are laid bare. To separate goats from the sheep, the Judge HAS to investigate and check out thoroughly if there are goat in sheep's clothing.

If you can't see the necessity of an open judgment that others see, that doesn't mean it's not there.

"Now we see through a glass darkly," or to paraphrase another translation, "now we see only puzzling reflections in a mirror," but then face to face." "Now we KNOW IN PART, but then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

BTW, you have been questioning SDA doctrines every chance you have, claiming it's full of contradictions and errors. I have asked you to show me the church whose doctrines are most consistently Biblical so I can join it, so far you haven't done it. Is there such a one?

1. You cannot be sure everything is on the up and up. You have "faith" that God is telling you everything. You do not actually know.

If it is "faith" upon which you rest then you don't have to know everything. Thus, the IJ is not necessary. Second the IJ is not Biblical.

Daniel chapter seven is the Judgment after the Second Coming. That passage in Daniel seven does not say that Judgment takes place before the Second Coming.

No where in Scripture does any big Judgment scene take place before the Second Coming. All references refer to the Judgment scenes taking place after the Second Coming.

After the Second Coming everything will be laid out. Not before.

2. You are "assuming" that the Angels are looking so as to learn something "new about God". Angels are looking so as to learn "how we respond to God's saving message" and they are wondering why not all humans respond to God's more than free and generous Salvation. Angels are not looking to learn new things about God.

You are assuming something the Bible texts are not saying. The fact that they are looking does not mean there is only one reason for their looking and that reason is the one you are asserting.

I just gave you another possible reason why Angels might be looking. That reason is just as good as your reason.

The bottom line is the Bible does not say "why" the Angels are looking so any reason you and/or I give is just our human speculation and is not Bible FACT.

You got your reason from Ellen White and that's her opinion. The Bible and the Bible only says nothing about the reason the Angels are looking.

The Bible and the Bible only is God's counter to the accusations against God. If you still believe satan then you will burn. There is no need for an IJ because already have God's Word to counter the lies of the devil.

You make it sound as if satan goes unchallenged. That is not so. The Bible and the Bible only is God's answer. In that Bible and the Bible only we also Jesus Christ and His answer to satan. You don't need any more than this.

If you reject God and His Word you will burn Hell. Such things will come out in the Judgment after the Second Coming.

3. I have never ever said that there would not be a Judgment Day. What I did say is that there is no Investigative Judgment. I also said that the Judgment Day would occur after the Second Coming.

So we are not arguing about whether or not there is a Judgment Day but "when" the Judgment Day occurs.

You say it occurs before the Second Coming and I say it occurs after the Second Coming.

The Bible and the Bible only supports the FACT that the Judgment Day takes place after the Second Coming. Thus, no IJ.

4. I have not attacked "every" SDA Church .org Doctrine. I have attacked some of the SDA Church .org doctrines that are not Bible and Bible only.

As such there are only four SDA Church .org doctrines that are not Bible and Bible only. Those would be Doctrine number eight, Doctrine number thirteen, Doctrine number eighteen, and Doctrine number twenty-four.

Other than these four Doctrines the SDA Church .org holds doctrines that are indeed Biblical for the most part.

As a personal opinion I find the SDA Church .org to be closest to the Bible of any Christian .org now existent.

Thus, it is a warped view to say that I trash everything about the SDA Church .org. I do not. I disagree with the SDA Church .org only where it does not agree with the Bible and the Bible only.

It is highly unfortunate that the SDA Church .org has allowed Ellen White and her writings to have such a dominant sway in what SDA believe. The SDA Church .org has raised Ellen White and her writings to "ABOVE CANON STATUS". They have allowed her to supersede the Bible even though they deny they do. This can be seen by their actions/behavior which tells us there denial words mean nothing.

[Woody]

I think miz3 - that what has happened here - is that you have attacked some of the beliefs that are more unique to our church. And it's possible that there could be a little pride in those that we deem "ours". ????

[miz3]

I think miz3 - that what has happened here - is that you have attacked some of the beliefs that are more unique to our church. And it's possible that there could be a little pride in those that we deem "ours". ????

I think you are correct.

The question is, does that make them true merely because they are ours and are unique?

Does that also mean that they are supported by the Bible and the Bible only just because they are ours and they are unique?

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: miz

1. Romans 3:4 does not say that God will be judged.

"What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:

“So that you may be proved right when you speak

and prevail when you judge."

Romans 3:3-4. (NIV)

The text says, that God will be the Judge.

The NIV translation of the verse is problematic because the verb krinesthai is in the passive voice.

Check it out. Therefore the correct translation is as rendered in:

ESV - “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.”

NASB - “THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”

KJV - That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Young's Literal Translation: ‘That Thou mayest be declared righteous in Thy words, and mayest overcome in Thy being judged.’

Look at what the verse is itself saying. If God is not being judged, why does He need to be JUSTIFIED in His words?

The judgment of public opinion was that Judge Ito was not very competent in the OJ trial. God must "demonstrate His righteousness" in His disposition of sin & sinners in a way that engenders confidence, otherwise, if there are any doubts about His competence & righteousness, sin could arise again.

I would agree Gerry. Here's what the Jewish Bible says on Romans 3:4 Heaven forbid! God would be true even if everyone were a liar! - as the Tanakh says, "so that you, God, may be proved right in your words and win the verdict when you are put on trial."

[Gerr]

Wow! Thanks, PK. That's as explicit as you can get. But, even when you quote Scripture, miz3 may still not believe it if it goes against his belief system.

[Lysimachus]

I would agree Gerry. Here's what the Jewish Bible says on Romans 3:4 Heaven forbid! God would be true even if everyone were a liar! - as the Tanakh says, "so that you, God, may be proved right in your words and win the verdict when you are put on trial."

SUPER!!!