1844

[phkrause]

Lysimachus that was excellent research, its what I have also come up with. 1844 is when Jesus went into the most holy from the holy. Very good points man.

[BibleOnly]

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

OK - do we agree this is about Jesus ? Are you saying that chapter 8 is about the same events as chapter 9 ? Chapter 9 gives a different time scale to chapter 8, doesn't it ?

[John317]

Yes, but who is being judged here ? Rev 20 is after the saints have risen to be with Jesus, this is the judgement, according to works, of the unsaved.

There are two judgments: the judgment of the dead and living prior to Christ's return; and then during and after the 1000 years, the judgment of the wicked.

All judgments have 3 portions: 1) the investigative; 2) the verdict and the sentencing; and 3) the execution.

The Investigative Judgment (also called the Pre-advent Judgment) only deals with those who have made a claim to believe in Christ or in God, from Adam down to the last person just before the second coming of Christ.

[BibleOnly]

I'm not sure of what your answer means. Rev 20 - who is being judged ? Where are these three steps laid out ?

[John317]

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

OK - do we agree this is about Jesus ?

Yes, Daniel 9: 24-27 is primarily about the Messiah, Jesus.

It tells us exactly when Christ would be anointed and when He would die.

This was precisely fulfilled. It is the reason we know the dating method is correct.

He was anointed by the Holy Spirit and by John the Baptizer in the Spring of 27 AD, and He was "cut off" 3 1/2 years later, in 31 AD. Jesus died the very hour that the evening sacrifice was offered on Passover.

3 1/2 years after that, in 34 AD., the probationary period of Israel came to an end when the Jews largely rejected the gospel, and killed Stephen. At that time the gospel went to the gentiles. See Acts 7 to 9.

[John317]

I'm not sure of what your answer means. Rev 20 - who is being judged ? Where are these three steps laid out ?

We believe the Bible teaches that the wicked dead are judged by the rightous living (together with Christ) during the 1000 years. Then the wicked are raised and at that point they recieve their sentence and the sentence is executed. The wicked are shown the reason they are excluded from heaven, and they acknowledge God's goodness and justice.

[BibleOnly]

OK - I disagree, I think that we restore israel and judge the living, I don't think that God needs our help to evaluate and judge the dead. But, I'm glad we agree that Rev 20 is not the judgement of the righteous

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

OK - do we agree this is about Jesus ?

Yes, Daniel 9: 24-27 is primarily about the Messiah, Jesus.

It tells us exactly when Christ would be anointed and when He would die.

This was precisely fulfilled. It is the reason we know the dating method is correct.

He was anointed by the Holy Spirit and by John the Baptizer in the Spring of 27 AD, and He was "cut off" 3 1/2 years later, in 31 AD. Jesus died the very hour that the evening sacrifice was offered on Passover.

3 1/2 years after that, in 34 AD., the probationary period of Israel came to an end when the Jews largely rejected the gospel, and killed Stephen. At that time the gospel went to the gentiles. See Acts 7 to 9.

And Jerusalem was destroyed some 40 years after that. OK, because a lot of people think that the 3 1/2 years is a reference to the anti christ and a coming tribulation.

[John317]

3 1/2 years after that, in 34 AD., the probationary period of Israel came to an end when the Jews largely rejected the gospel, and killed Stephen. At that time the gospel went to the gentiles. See Acts 7 to 9.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

And Jerusalem was destroyed some 40 years after that.

Yep. 70 AD. That was another sign that the Jews had passed their probationary period and that the sanctuary service on earth was finished. It fulfilled much that Christ predicted and Daniel had predicted.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

OK, because a lot of people think that the 3 1/2 years is a reference to the anti christ and a coming tribulation.

Yeah, right. However, SDAs don't accept that prophetic interpretation. It was actually a fairly recent invention as far as doctrinal understanding goes.

For most of the last 400 years, protestants have believed that we know the identity of the antichrist power. It's only been since about 1900 that protestants changed their view of the identity of the antichrist to an unknown power that will arise in the future for a short time.

[BibleOnly]

Yes, all of this is true ( although I believe the first writings on the future antichrist were much earlier than 1900, more like 1830 ).

[John317]

Yes, all of this is true ( although I believe the first writings on the future antichrist were much earlier than 1900, more like 1830 ).

Yes, that is true, about 1840, around the time of the Great Disappointment, but I mean 1900 was about the time that the belief began to really catch on in the protestant world.

And so

[Guest]

And so

Huh? It's only 7:00 PM out there where you are...

[Lysimachus]

And Jerusalem was destroyed some 40 years after that. OK, because a lot of people think that the 3 1/2 years is a reference to the anti christ and a coming tribulation.

If you're ever interested, I wrote on the 70 weeks quite a bit here:

The 70 Weeks of Daniel 9 - Vindicating the Historical-Messianic Computation

It's broken down into 4 posts, but I also have several other posts that add a great detail in the same thread, since I was debating with Quasar, a die-hard Dispensational author and teacher (83 years old).

[Windsor]

It's a complex question that will take some time to answer. You can't cover 2,300 years of earths history in a paragraph or two without causing a tremendous amount of confusion and an endless parade of questions.

Having said that,,,, here we go! Fasten your seat belt. First of all, it was widely accepted by many, many biblical scholars of the early 1800's (and before) that Daniels prophecy was about to end. This was a world wide understanding. William Miller, in America, was the most profound theologian on this event. BUT, there were a large number of other contributors that filled in details as they worked together, or separately to determine the exact date. October 22 (as I recall), 1844. There were a couple of dates earlier than that proposed and several dates AFTER that, largely because of the great disappointment of the apparent failure of 1844.

It is commonly held that William Miller himself preached a second coming at the time. But this is not entirely accurate, it was mostly the people associated with him that preached a second coming. It was "good for business", large gatherings, tent meetings, offering plates passed around, tracts, pamphlets, books printed, speaking fee's. BIG business! Miller, for the most part DID NOT like to put a fine point on WHAT was going to happen. His work, largely simple math based on historical records, said Daniels prophecy would end. Then what? He didn't know for sure, but was sure his math was accurate. Turns out, his math WAS accurate! I've "worked the numbers" myself, many times, to "prove it" to myself. Wow, the math really DOES work! 1844 alright, no question in my mind!

To understand what happened we need to go back to the ancient sanctuary service of the Israelites. The courtyard, the Holy Place, the Most Holy Place, the animal sacrifice, the ark of the covenant. A really fascinating journey, a TRUE story, not like that fake Hollywood block buster stuff with some guy from Indiana....

To be continued....

Having just read the new William Miller biography available at your local Adventist Book Center, let me correct a few misconceptions. First, Miller absolutely believed that the event that was to end the 2300 days (years) was the Second Coming of Christ. Even after 1844, he thought the time may have been off by a few years but that the return of Jesus was imminent. He just was never comfortable picking out an exact date. At the time, the subject of the millennium was probably the hottest topic in Christendom. He was one of the few who believed in a pre-millennial Advent of Christ. Most Christians believed it would occur after an earthly millennium.

Secondly, the man who came up with October 22, 1844 was not a man named Smith. His name was Samuel Snow. This was after failed 1843 predictions (not realizing there was no year 0 - hence 2300 years from 457 was not 1843 but 1844)

Thirdly, the Millerites were also known as Adventists (not Seventh-day Adventists - a later phenomenon). The smallest of these groups were known as the Sabbitarian Adventists. Today, however, the largest group of Adventists are the Seventh-day Adventists. These mostly descend from post-1844 converts, not from those who followed Miller. The only early SDA ex-Millerites of note were James and Ellen White (she was only 17 in 1844), and most prominently Joseph Bates.

[miz3]

John317 I am still waiting for those Bible texts that:

1. List the grievances satan has against God and Jesus Christ. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

2. Where in the Bible does it say the angels and the unfallen beings had doubts about God and Jesus Christ and thus, the Investigative Judgment was intended to answer their questions and doubts. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

3. Or do you admit that because you said that the angels and unfallen beings no longer have questions and doubts then their is no need of an Investigative Judgment?

Please give Scripture Book, Chapter, and verse and clarification of which way it is.

[BibleOnly]

I think that sometimes the Bible doesn't word things in the way that people who want to reject it would prefer, you know where I think that is true. I would agree that something as major was what is being discussed, the nature and origin of the devil, is something where we should not claim to know anything that the Bible doesn't explicitly state. If you have a detailed and specific belief about something that you think happened in 1844, if it's that major, then the Bible should explain it without reference to any external source.

I have gone a bit quiet because I am reading Daniel 8 and 9 before I post again on some of the things you've mentioned.

[miz3]

... I think that sometimes the Bible doesn't word things in the way that people who want to reject it would prefer, you know where I think that is true. I would agree that something as major was what is being discussed, the nature and origin of the devil, is something where we should not claim to know anything that the Bible doesn't explicitly state. If you have a detailed and specific belief about something that you think happened in 1844, if it's that major, then the Bible should explain it without reference to any external source.

I have gone a bit quiet because I am reading Daniel 8 and 9 before I post again on some of the things you've mentioned.

The IJ is extremely major to the SDA Church .org. They hold that it and the rest of the Sanctuary doctrine they hold is unique to them and the very reason for their existence as God's last day remnant people. They believe God has called them especially for this special time and special work. This means that other Christian faiths have no legitimate reason for existence because the SDA Church .org is the only One that God has really called. They say that the IJ and the Sanctuary were given to them especially by God and that these special things are The Message they are to bring to the World.

I would say in light of this it is incumbent on us to question the voracity of this claim and have them show from the Bible and the Bible only as they claim they can the Truth of this doctrine.

...

They also boast in their twenty-eight fundamentals that every last one of the fundamentals can be supported by the Bible and the Bible only.

With this in mind, I think it only right to see if their boast is true. So far we have seen only silence to my three inquires. This silence demonstrates that their IJ is based on something other than the Bible and the Bible only.

I think this is significant, very significant. If they cannot support the IJ with the Bible and the Bible only as they boast then what else in the Sanctuary doctrine and 1844 are they not able to support from the Bible and the Bible only. In addition what is the actual source of their belief in the IJ and the Sanctuary that is not Biblical.

[Windsor]

John317 I am still waiting for those Bible texts that:

1. List the grievances satan has against God and Jesus Christ. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

2. Where in the Bible does it say the angels and the unfallen beings had doubts about God and Jesus Christ and thus, the Investigative Judgment was intended to answer their questions and doubts. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

3. Or do you admit that because you said that the angels and unfallen beings no longer have questions and doubts then their is no need of an Investigative Judgment?

Please give Scripture Book, Chapter, and verse and clarification of which way it is.

[miz3]

John317 asked for data regarding percentages of copying used by Ellen White. Here is something:

"In Adventist Review, Feb. 23, 1984, Robert Olson admitted that 50% or more of The Great Controversy was drawn from other sources. Other estimates go as high as 90%."

I guess when I said 40% to 60% I was indeed wrong. For that I apologize.

It appears the figures are actually higher than my memory recalled.

[Stan]

Turns out later that was not that correct.

[Gibs]

On this subject of judgement as EGW states, remember this, His reward is with Him when He comes, The first resurrection is of those found to be the righteous.

EGW, speaks,

"The cleansing of the sanctuary . . . involves a work of investigation --a work of judgment. This work must be performed prior to the coming of Christ to redeem His people; for when He comes, His reward is with Him to give to every man according to his works." {FLB 207.5}

Who can argue against that? On what grounds?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

I don't see any grounds Gibs.

[BibleOnly]

On this subject of judgement as EGW states, remember this, His reward is with Him when He comes, The first resurrection is of those found to be the righteous.

EGW, speaks,

"The cleansing of the sanctuary . . . involves a work of investigation --a work of judgment. This work must be performed prior to the coming of Christ to redeem His people; for when He comes, His reward is with Him to give to every man according to his works." {FLB 207.5}

Who can argue against that? On what grounds?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

But who is doing the 'investigating' ? Whoever it is, they must be seeking to establish something they did not know before, that's what 'investigating' is. What is the work that needs to be done before Christ can come ?

[Lysimachus]

John317 asked for data regarding percentages of copying used by Ellen White. Here is something:

"In Adventist Review, Feb. 23, 1984, Robert Olson admitted that 50% or more of The Great Controversy was drawn from other sources. Other estimates go as high as 90%."

I guess when I said 40% to 60% I was indeed wrong. For that I apologize.

It appears the figures are actually higher than my memory recalled.

Totally debunked, and dusted away eons ago.

http://www.ellenwhiteanswers.org/answers/plagarism

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/egwhc/EGWHCc28.html

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/jeremiah-films/response-to-video-98.htm

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/jeremiah-films/response-to-video-100.htm

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/jeremiah-films/response-to-video-101.htm

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/jeremiah-films/response-to-video-103.htm

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/jeremiah-films/response-to-video-106.htm

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/jeremiah-films/response-to-video-110.htm

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/jeremiah-films/response-to-video-112.htm

This is what happens when people refuse to do their homework and research.

Even the more learned critics of Misses White have abandoned these charges.

It's actually the other way around. About 90% was original work, and about 10% borrowed.

[BibleOnly]

I'm not sure how a lack of homework can lead to such a claim. Did her writings come first and the authors of the claim confused ? It seems to me to be the sort of thing the SDA would have to have a response to, but that it's easy to work out, from the order in which things were written. Did she copy from a lot of sources, or did a lot of sources copy from her, or did they both copy from a common source ?

Given that Ellen White thought that masturbation causes insanity and that cancer is principally caused by a virus, I think any claims to her being the special oracle of God are highly questionable.