For Gerry

[BibleOnly]

OK, so another thread I was talking on has been locked when there's been questions asked of me I'd like to answer. So, Gerry, here is your answer to the questions you asked. I hope this does not subvert the intent of the mods, who as far as I am aware, were not objecting to this post or this aspect of the discussion. But, if they feel otherwise, they can tell me.

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There's nothing unbiblical what Paul says in 1 Cor 14. What is unbiblical is your understanding of it that puts it in opposition to what Paul says in ch 12 & 13! In ch 14 you claim that every believer has the gift of prophecy or tongues when Paul makes it perfectly clear in ch 12 that such is NOT the case!

As I always point out - if this reading is correct, if when Paul said 'DO all speak in tongues', he meant 'CAN all speak in tongues', then 1 Cor 12 indicates that not all Christians have faith, wisdom, discernment, knowledge, or the ability to pray for healing. I assume I don't need to use the Bible to prove that all Christians do have these things ?

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Again, your reasoning totally baffles me. You say that I break the Sabbath while I'm trying to observe it, while you disregard it and you claim to be resting in God's rest? You call it legalism that I try to obey 10/10c but you are not a legalist because you obey only 9/10c? Totally absurd!!!

The problem is that you're trying to observe a broken law, instead of the newness of life in the Spirit.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

No-one was saved by the 10 commandments. That's why Jesus came

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:21 ¶ But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Rom 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? [is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

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I'm sorry if you have to repeat yourself. But that's because you are not making sense to me. As I said above, you logic totally baffles. Yes, tongues, for instance, benefited the Hispanic congregation when I spoke to them because someone interpreted. But for what reason/benefit would I speak in tongues to my English-speaking congregation only to have it interpreted/translated back into English? Would it not be of more benefit to just speak to them directly in the language we all use and understand?

If you spoke Spanish, then you did not speak in tongues. The reasons are given in the Bible:

1Cr 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Tongues is in the church as a sign to unbelievers. But, it's not just used in the church. It's not used to speak to people who speak other languages, though:

1Cr 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Tongues is used to speak to God.

And yes, it benefits the church more to just speak in the language they know.

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With that kind of convoluted logic, I give up. Acts 2 specifically says that the tongues spoken were human languages, and now you are saying there are "no specifics given that might contradict it?"

Yes, in Acts 2, this is true. And without 1 Cor 14, and without anyone in your church speaking in tongues, you'd have no direction and no experience, so Acts 2 would be the most detailed account and the logical place to look for a definition. But, 1 Cor 14 gives a definition that contradicts Acts 2. Therefore a definition trumps an account. In Acts 2, tongues were understood. 1 Cor 14 says that in general, only God understands tongues.

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So when you talk to yourself in tongues, do you understand what you are saying to yourself?

Of course not. That is actually the point:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

In this chapter, this is actually an aside, a reference to something Paul expects everyone to understand as an illustration of the point he was making. For this reason, it makes no sense that any Christian would not immediately identify with experiencing and understanding this. 'cannot be uttered' means 'something you can't express in words'.

Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

is the verse that causes him to use this turn of phrase, but the only logical explanation I've ever heard for this, is tongues. God gives me the words when I pray, because I don't always know what I should pray for, and this is the core use of tongues. It's used in the church only because an unbeliever in a Christian church has heard about tongues, and this is how they get to hear it. Why else would it make sense for someone to speak in an unknown language in a church meeting ? The use of a gift of interpretation indicates that no-one in the church is expected to know the language, natural or otherwise. That someone would end up in a church meeting without being able to speak the language makes no sense, and why would they sit through a meeting to hear the Gospel spoken in tongues, why not just go out and speak the message in tongues, if that's how it worked ? Yet, Paul does not say 'if there's no interpreter, keep tongues for when you're witnessing to foreigners'. He says, if there is no interpreter, wait until you can speak to yourself, and to God. Tongues is used in prayer, that's why Paul calls it 'prayer in the Spirit'. Which Jude 20-21 says keeps us in Gods love, and which Jesus said God requires of our worship.

I hope that answers your questions.

[Gerr]

I don't want to revive a dead horse only to beat again. The thread was locked up for good reason. If you want to talk gibberish to yourself which neither you nor heaven can understand, go right ahead.

[BibleOnly]

It was locked for reasons that had nothing to do with your post, or my responses to you. By all means, if you want to reject the Gospel I represent, then that is your choice. But, you asked questions and so I answered them. I've answered you from the Bible. If you have an answer, from the Bible, but don't want to share it for my benefit and the benefit of others, then I'm not sure why you're here. If you don't have an answer, but you don't want to think about how your beliefs don't line up with the Bible, then I'm not sure why you're here. But, what you do, is your choice.

[Gerr]

And just what is the "gospel" that you are presenting? I seem to have missed it.

[BibleOnly]

Gerry, I've elsewhere indicated that I'm not going to pursue these public circular discussions any more. If you want to discuss it, you can PM me. The 'gospel' is that people who repent and are baptised can expect to receive the Holy Spirit, which comes with physical evidence, as Jesus promised. It follows that any Gospel that does not have the evidence Jesus promised, is not His. So, my aim was to discuss SDA doctrine, but, in so far as we naturally drifted to ways in which I disagree, my point was never that you're not saved. It's that you CAN be.

If you want to talk, PM me. If you'd rather not, I'm giving you that option now, without having to see what I believe posted here over and over.

[Gerr]

Aren't you a bit presumptuous? I have received the gospel. I have repented, been forgiven, baptized, and received the Holy Spirit!

[BibleOnly]

As I said, if you want to discuss this, PM me. If you don't have the manifestation of the Spirit, then you don't have the Spirit. But, again, I'm trying to avoid this sort of circular discussion with the same people over and over. If you want to discuss it, send me a private message. I'm trying to act for the good of this community, rather than have my views take over a board dedicated to the views of the SDA.

[Gerr]

As I said, if you want to discuss this, PM me. If you don't have the manifestation of the Spirit, then you don't have the Spirit. But, again, I'm trying to avoid this sort of circular discussion with the same people over and over. If you want to discuss it, send me a private message. I'm trying to act for the good of this community, rather than have my views take over a board dedicated to the views of the SDA.

How do you know I don't have the manifestation of the Spirit? Because I don't speak in gibberish? Look, Paul took a detour between 1 Cor 12 & 14 with ch 13 to show that one who professes to have all the gifts of tongue, prophecy, understanding of all mysteries, and if you know everything about everything, faith to move mountains, even giving your life, WITHOUT LOVE, you are no better than a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. Without love, Paul says, you are nothing. It is the greatest sign of having the Spirit. Jesus said, "by these all men shall know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another."

You brought out in the other thread, don't everybody love? Ah, yes, everybody loves, but not the kind of agape love that Jesus was talking about. It is the kind of love that goes the second mile, turns the other cheek, prays for his persecutor, and loves his enemy. It is a love untainted with self. How many of the things you've done before you became a Christian or even some of the things you've done as a Christian, can you truly say has not SOME self woven into it?

[BibleOnly]

It's like you're ignoring me. I don't want to keep presenting my ideas on these forums, because I've presented them clearly, and I don't want to disrupt this community. I will respond via private message, although it will be stuff I've said before.

[BibleOnly]

That's a weird and mixed up statement. How does a word game change the bible ? Isn't the church meant to be a light on a hill, for unbelievers ? If it's only for believers, where do new believers come from ?

[Gerr]

That's a weird and mixed up statement. How does a word game change the bible ? Isn't the church meant to be a light on a hill, for unbelievers ? If it's only for believers, where do new believers come from ?

What Paul said is weird? Isn't Paul saying that for believers, you don't need tongues as a sign that you have the Spirit?

[Gibs]

BibleOnly,

This one is for you as I remember or think it was you who had mentioned the the Sabbath wasn't kept in a "church" in the old testament.

Well church then was a "convocation" and means about the same as ekklesia. But here is a verse I think that clears up that "church", convocation was held.

Le 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

"convocation",= "church today"

miqra' mik-raw'

from 7121; something called out, i.e. a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal:--assembly, calling, convocation, reading.

"ekklesea",= "The True Church Today"

ekklesia ek-klay-see'-ah

from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):--assembly, church.

Just a pass along,

Hey if it wasn't you who asked the question, it is still good info.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

That's a weird and mixed up statement. How does a word game change the bible ? Isn't the church meant to be a light on a hill, for unbelievers ? If it's only for believers, where do new believers come from ?

What Paul said is weird? Isn't Paul saying that for believers, you don't need tongues as a sign that you have the Spirit?

Yes, that is true, in the sense that once you are a 'believer', you speak in tongues, therefore you don't need to see other believers speaking in tongues regularly. No-one ever stops having the Spirit, so once someone knows they have the Spirit, they will always have the Spirit. But the term 'believer' is misleading, Acts 8 talks about baptised believers who knew they DIDN'T have the Spirit. In 1 Cor 14, Paul means people who are already saved, not just people who believe, as opposed to, say, Acts 19, where Paul asks 'have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed'. In 1 Cor 14, he's not talking about a sign to know if you're saved or not, he's talking about a general sign that God is working in the church. To a believer ( that is, a Christian ), this is prophecy, a message we understand from God. To an unbeliever, prophecy is a message they cannot act on until they are saved, but tongues is the chance to hear the evidence of the Spirit, which they will know is something they will receive, if they become a Christian.

[BibleOnly]

BibleOnly,

This one is for you as I remember or think it was you who had mentioned the the Sabbath wasn't kept in a "church" in the old testament.

Well church then was a "convocation" and means about the same as ekklesia. But here is a verse I think that clears up that "church", convocation was held.

Le 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

"convocation",= "church today"

miqra' mik-raw'

from 7121; something called out, i.e. a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal:--assembly, calling, convocation, reading.

"ekklesea",= "The True Church Today"

ekklesia ek-klay-see'-ah

from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):--assembly, church.

Just a pass along,

Hey if it wasn't you who asked the question, it is still good info.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The ekklesea IS the church, it has nothing to do with a meeting at all. The church is called out of the world, all the time. i.e. means 'for example', it doesn't mean what the word means, the word means, 'called out' as in, called out of the world. The rest is interpretation.

The word 'convocation' means

1) convocation, convoking, reading, a calling together

a) convocation, sacred assembly

convoking

c) reading

They were called together in the sense of stopping work. This verse just says 'do no work', it does not say they need to have what we'd regard as a church meeting. You're reading between the lines to find that, here. I would agree that it indicates a gathering together, and it seems to imply a reading of the scriptures, but, it never explicitly says the Sabbath was the equivalent of a day of church meetings.

[Gibs]

You are the one reading out of it what you don't want,

Le 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

And then I copied and pasted from the hebrew the meaning of the word "convocation", and it is,

miqra' mik-raw'

from 7121; something called out, i.e. a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal:--assembly, calling, convocation, reading.

The same thing as church, something called out, a public meetin an assembly and a reading, of what, no doubt God's Words to them. In the begining it was the tabernacle. It was a holy assembly on the Holy Sabbath, seventh day and there is no two ways about it.

I just gave it for your information and you may argue what it means but I have no doubts so it is for you, take it as you will and run with it.

Anyway doggone it, I hope you had a good 10 days at whatever and since we are now into 2012, hopefully it will be a good one for you, as I understand it will not for a very many. We can thank God for our blessings.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BibleOnly]

"as I understand it will not for a very many"

How do you mean, the economic downturn ? Yeah, I have a good job and I'm well aware that a lot of people are doing it tough, nowadays.

I hope you have a good year, too. I am looking forward to the look on the faces of all the people who think the world ends in 2012, when 2013 comes around :-) Of course Jesus MIGHT return this year, but I doubt that the Mayans predicted His coming.

[Gibs]

BibleOnly,

I'm with you the Mayan calendar means nothing.

And yes this economic situation is a disaster. I just read a newsclip that 18.5 million homes are now vacated and 10,000 a day are being forclosed on. That means a lot of homeless people and many of them will die of exposure, want of food and medical care.

The number of homes here in our little town that are coming up for sale increases every day and some are putting them up for rent and rent to own and any way to get some money and most are vacated and I don't know where all the people go. I know some are homeless.

I understand 2012 to be the year TPTB implement fully the NWO takeover and control, so we'll see how that goes. Prices are going to increase rapidly we do know that. Water is a serious problem in some large localities.

Well we can sled ride as long as there is snow they say, so what will be will be.

Take care.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world

[BibleOnly]

"I understand 2012 to be the year TPTB implement fully the NWO takeover and control, so we'll see how that goes."

TPTB ?

I don't believe in a NWO take over at all, I think that's a gross misreading of the Bible. I do agree that times are getting tougher, especially in the US, here people would get public housing and welfare that never ends, right or wrong. It's not as bad here, because our banks are more controlled, there's no increased rate of foreclosures, but there's definitely an economic downturn.

"Water is a serious problem in some large localities."

The Hoover Dam is lower every time I see it, and that whole desert area was populated during a time of high river flow, which will naturally ebb, water is going to be a bigger and bigger problem worldwide IMO.

"Well we can sled ride as long as there is snow they say, so what will be will be."

Yes, a Christian certainly has a different outlook on these sort of events, I feel for the people suffering because of man's greed and lack of foresight, but I look to a new and better kingdom to come, so I have something to hope for. I'm sure you feel the same.

[Gerr]

Are you saying that unless one speaks in tongues that he/she is not saved?

[BibleOnly]

Did you only just work that out ? I've been saying it here for at least a month. To be clearer - when someone is saved, they speak in tongues. Naturally, many people who speak in tongues go on to be backsliders. Tongues is, however, the evidence of the Holy Spirit, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit cannot be separated from salvation.

[Gerr]

If the sign of being saved is speaking in tongues, then none of the OT saints will be in the kingdom. There is no evidence any of them spoke in tongues.

If that is the gospel that you are teaching, better read the rest of the Bible besides one or two chapters in 1 Corinthians. That's pretty said.

[Gibs]

BibleOnly,

TPTB, I thought that one to be so common that I did not think you would not have caught that one It is, The Powers That Be.

From what I've gathered the NWO will be fully instituted this year.

Also I don't know where you live but most homeless around here and there is a lot of them have NO HOUSING PROVIDED! The government here is more than broke, social security has no money and the same with medicare and medicade. The whole thing is being run on the passing out of figures and because it's from the government it is accepted but the day will dawn when the fiddler must be paid. The implosion is near at hand and then it will be overnight that the crash will happen no one could even envision the enormity of it.

I think you might be in Canada and your country isn't far behind, first it will be the UK, then the USA and then Canada.

We can see it coming on the horizon of events,

2Ti 3:1 ¶ This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BibleOnly]

If the sign of being saved is speaking in tongues, then none of the OT saints will be in the kingdom. There is no evidence any of them spoke in tongues.

If that is the gospel that you are teaching, better read the rest of the Bible besides one or two chapters in 1 Corinthians. That's pretty said.

There is not one verse that contradicts what I am saying. Yes, Jesus came to bring a salvation that was not available in the Old Testament. The Bible makes that clear. Why else did Jesus come ? Why did He keep talking about the Holy Spirit that could be given until He died, if it had already been given retrospectively ?

[BibleOnly]

BibleOnly,

TPTB, I thought that one to be so common that I did not think you would not have caught that one It is, The Powers That Be.

From what I've gathered the NWO will be fully instituted this year.

[Gerr]

There is not one verse that contradicts what I am saying.

There is not one Bible passage that says, speak in tongues and you will be saved, or if you speak in tongues, it shows you are saved. On the contrary, Paul explicitly says, "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but have not love, I am just a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal!"

If you are willing to listen, just about every Bible statement that has to do with how a sinner is saved contradicts your so-called gospel. Here are just a few:

1) ESV | ‎Ge 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

2) ESV | ‎Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, ‎9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

3) ESV | ‎Ga 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be.

4) ESV | ‎Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

5) ESV | ‎Ac 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” ‎31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

6) ESV | ‎Mt 19:16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” ‎17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

7) ESV | ‎Ro 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

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Yes, Jesus came to bring a salvation that was not available in the Old Testament. The Bible makes that clear.

You've gotta be joking!!! Where in the Bible does it say that salvation was not available in the OT?

So all those OT believers are lost?

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Why else did Jesus come ? Why did He keep talking about the Holy Spirit that could be given until He died, if it had already been given retrospectively ?

I'll answer this in another post.