For Gerry

[BibleOnly]

There is not one Bible passage that says, speak in tongues and you will be saved, or if you speak in tongues, it shows you are saved. On the contrary, Paul explicitly says, "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but have not love, I am just a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal!"

[Gerr]

Why else did Jesus come ? Why did He keep talking about the Holy Spirit that could be given until He died, if it had already been given retrospectively ?

That Jesus came to bring salvation, we are agreed. But to say that salvation was not made until He was physically present here has to be one of the most incredibly unbiblical statements I have ever heard.

Jesus was "the Lamb °slain from the foundation of the world", Rev 13:8

God's plan to save sinners was "the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints." Col 1:26 ESV.

This plan was shown in the types of the Levitical system. The sacrificial lamb prefigured the saving death of Christ. A repentant sinner showed his faith in the Savior to come by bringing the sacrificial animal. Read Heb 11 for some of those OT heroes who were saved because of their faith in the Jesus who was to come.

Now, as to the Holy Spirit. If you are implying that the HS was not active before Jesus, that would be totally erroneous. Here are just a few examples of the Spirit's activity before Pentecost:

1)ESV | ‎Ge 1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

2) ESV | ‎Ge 6:3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”

3) ESV | ‎Jdg 3:10 The Spirit of the LORD was upon him (Othniel), and he judged Israel.

4) ESV | ‎Jdg 11:29 Then the Spirit of the LORD was upon Jephthah,

5) ESV | ‎Eze 11:5 And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and he said to me

There are dozens of similar statements showing that the HS was very much present & active before Pentecost. I can give you the references if you want.

So if the Spirit was already working with men before Jesus came, what then did Jesus mean when He said, ESV | ‎Jn 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.

1) The HS is Jesus representative. When the president himself is present in a meeting, he doesn't need his surrogates or representative to be there. So since Jesus was already here, His representative, the HS, didn't need to be here at the same time.

2) The HS was to bear witness of Jesus. Since Jesus was already here bearing witness, the HS didn't need to be here until Jesus left.

3) Pentecost was a special occasion which prophesied when God would pour out His Holy Spirit, see Joel 2.

Jesus said, "You shall know them by their fruit," not because they speak in tongues or prophesy or do miracles. See Gal 5:22.

Notice that having gifts of the Spirit is no guarantee that one is saved:

ESV | ‎Mt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

The surest way that a tree is an apple tree is if it has apple fruits. Ditto, the surest way that to tell that one is truly a Christian is having the fruits of the Spirit, Gal 5:22.

[BibleOnly]

That Jesus came to bring salvation, we are agreed. But to say that salvation was not made until He was physically present here has to be one of the most incredibly unbiblical statements I have ever heard.

[Gibs]

Just a thought to add here, If Jesus Christ had of failed to overcome Satan as a man then there would have been no salvation for any man.

Satan I'm sure felt he had a great advantage now that the sacrifice that if it did overcome would wrest from him all who would take up the offering that he could overcome Him easily but he, Satan failed to bring Him down even though he, Satan hit on Him more without doubt than any of us.

Satan surely didn't find that Christ overcoming him was a sureity or do you think he would have tried? I think he was probably gleeful that now he could make this his permanent abode.

Satan still claims this world as his as he overcame and wrested it from Adam but in reality Christ cinched it that now Satan has lost it all but is allowed to bring about his rule to let all see the summit of what rebellion and disobedience leads to.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BibleOnly]

Agreed - so, you agree with me then, that satan cannot answer people who are calling on God, unless God allows it ?

[olger]

Thanks,

Gerry

[Gerr]

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

I have already explained & showed you references that the HS was present on this earth before Jesus came. I can cite you more if you want. Since Jesus whom the HS was to represent & bear witness to was here in person, He did not need to be as active as after Jesus went back to heaven.

Quote:

And just so we are clear:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So, the Spirit was not given until Jesus died, and without the Spirit, we are not Christ's.

Moses had the HS. The 70 elders had the HS. Othniel, Gideon, Saul, Samson, and ALL the OT prophets had the HS. Pentecost was a special outpouring of the HS as prophesied in Joel. It is the work of the HS to convict of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come, not just after the Cross but has been doing it since the fall.

Quote:

Heb 11 finishes with this:

Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

ESV | ‎Heb 11:33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, [size:14pt]obtained promises,[/size] stopped the mouths of lions, ‎34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

So they did obtain some of what was promised, but not all. What where those promises that they did not receive? God promised the physical land of Canaan to Abraham. However, he lived in it as though he was just a stranger. It finally dawned on him that "God had provided something better for us." And what was that?

ESV | ‎Heb 11:10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

No one has yet seen that city except for a privileged few like Enoch, Elijah, & Moses. We will all see it together along with all the OT faithful, for "apart from us they should they should not be made perfect." Or as the GNT renders it: "His purpose was that only in company with us would they be made perfect."

Originally Posted By: Bibleonly

In the New Testament, God will not leave us or forsake us, once you have the Holy Spirit, you cannot lose it, God cannot take it back.

[color:blue]

Even if a person doesn't want the Spirit anymore? If the HS cannot be taken back, when then did David say this in your quote? Why would he pray, "take not they HS from me," if God could not take the HS away?

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence and take not thy holy spirit from me.

How about Saul? He had the HS. He even prophesied. But the HS left him because of persistent, willful, disobedience.

Gerry:

So if the Spirit was already working with men before Jesus came, what then did Jesus mean when He said, ESV | ‎Jn 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.

1) The HS is Jesus representative. When the president himself is present in a meeting, he doesn't need his surrogates or representative to be there. So since Jesus was already here, His representative, the HS, didn't need to be here at the same time.

BibleOnly:

So you think Jesus meant 'you could have had my Spirit, but now you have me instead, which is not as good, b/c I am telling you the stuff you would have if you had my Spirit instead, but don't worry, I'll be dead soon and the Spirit will come back ?

Wrong interpretation.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

2) The HS was to bear witness of Jesus. Since Jesus was already here bearing witness, the HS didn't need to be here until Jesus left.

BO:

This is all idle conjecture and has no relationship to the Bible.

So what's your explanation? If the HS had been present all along, why would Jesus say that the HS would not come unless He went away?

Gerry:

Jesus said, "You shall know them by their fruit," not because they speak in tongues or prophesy or do miracles. See Gal 5:22.

BO:

Your biggest issue is simply that lots of Buddhists have lots of love, joy and peace. How can I know someone is a Christian by signs that non Christians also have ?

How do you know that God's Spirit is not working in a Budhist's heart/life? Or a Muslim? ESV | ‎Ro 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. ‎15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

Quote:

Luk 6:46 ¶ And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

As I have said, not every reference to fruit is a reference to Galatians. The fruits of the Spirit are important, but the fruits of a Christian are the workings of God, the miracles that can grow on no other tree. And, Jesus went on to say, why do people call Him Lord and not do what He said ? Jesus said believers would speak in tongues.....

Is that what Jesus is saying? Jesus said NOTHING about tongues in ANY of His discourses. What is Jesus saying in Lk 6:46? In the NEXT verse He says: "Everyoone who comes to me and HEARS my words AND DOES them, I will show you what he is like...." IOW, the REAL sign of being a disciple of Jesus is OBEYING what He says. Loving obedience is the real fruit of true discipleship, NOT speaking in tongues or prophesying, etc.

Gerry:

Notice that having gifts of the Spirit is no guarantee that one is saved:

ESV | ‎Mt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

BO:

Exactly. But did Jesus mean that people who followed Him would NOT prophecy and do mighty works ?

I never said they wouldn't. I'm just saying that doing/having all those things is no guarantee that the one doing them is from God.

Gerry:

The surest way that a tree is an apple tree is if it has apple fruits. Ditto, the surest way that to tell that one is truly a Christian is having the fruits of the Spirit, Gal 5:22.

BO: Then my athiest grandfather was saved against his will, and a lot of other people too, I am sure.

Huh?

[BibleOnly]

I spent longer trying to make my post work than I did writing it. Please stop with the colors and other tags, it messes things up

I have already explained & showed you references that the HS was present on this earth before Jesus came. I can cite you more if you want. Since Jesus whom the HS was to represent & bear witness to was here in person, He did not need to be as active as after Jesus went back to heaven.

[Gerr]

If the proof of the Spirit is being a nice person, then my grandfather, who died an atheist, was saved.

People can be extremely nice for all the wrong reasons and not necessarily a fruit of the Spirit.

Originally Posted By: BO

That is rubbish, and it's not what I said, or what Jesus said. The gifts of God can only come from God, no-one else has the power to give them. To say otherwise is a form of devil worship.

If you don't think that Satan has power to perform miracles, you're in for a big surprise, and a sitting duck for deception!

ESV | ‎Ex 7:10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the LORD commanded. Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent.

ESV | ‎Ex 7:11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. ‎12 For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents.

NIV84 | ‎Re 13:13 °And he performed great and miraculous signs, even °causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in °full view of °men. ‎14 °Because of the signs °he was given power to °do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the °inhabitants of the °earth°.

Originally Posted By: BO

You can't seperate the two. If you don't speak in tongues, you don't have the Holy Spirit and have not done what Jesus said. Once you DO have the Spirit, of course JEsus said many other things you also need to do.

So one can have the gift of administration, help, generosity, service, prophecy, but if s/he can't speak in tongues, s/he doesn't the Holy Spirit? That's incredible! But then the snake handlers make similar claim - if you can't handle snakes, you don't have the faith!

Originally Posted By: BO

I am sorry that I need to keep pointing out what the Bible says to you.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

And why did you stop in v.17 with tongues? Read the rest of what Jesus said: ESV | ‎Mk 16:18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

As I said previously, why don't you make snake handling THE sign that you have the Spirit? Or drinking deadly poison?

Gerry: How do you know that God's Spirit is not working in a Budhist's heart/life? Or a Muslim? ESV | ‎Ro 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. ‎15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

BO: Because they don't have the Holy Spirit, pure and simple. .

They don't have the HS on your say so? Sorry, BO. ESV | ‎Mt 8:11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, [bTW, this shows some of the saved people BEFORE the Cross!]

Originally Posted By: BO

Yes, if the law defines what is right, then people who do what is right, live by the law, without meaning to. But we're not saved by works, and being a nice person is not salvation

[color:blue]

Neither are we saved by/because of speaking in tongues.

Originally Posted By: BO

I repeat - because the Holy Spirit was not given in the New Testament sense. Yes, you can't just decide to 'not have the Spirit'. You can walk away from letting the Spirit act in your life, but you can't cast it off. The old man has died and your life is in the Spirit once you are saved. You can't revive the old man, although you can do the old man's works again.

Do you know how long it takes for a crucified person to die? How old are you? You no longer have your flesh tugging at you? You are now perfect?

Originally Posted By: BO

I've given it. The Spirit was able to move on people to empower them, but the indwelling was something new, that Jesus had to die to give. The Spirit indwells me because I am cleansed of sin by the sacrifice of Jesus and made the temple of God. Before, God dwelled in temples made with hands. Now He dwells in us. That alone shows the nature of what changed.

Who do you think empowered Enoch to walk with God in the midst of a wicked generation?

Originally Posted By: BO

You're making up stories here. You can't change what it said, they could not receive the promise.

Making up stories? Did not Abraham receive the promised son?

ESV | ‎Jos 23:14 “And now I am about to go the way of all the earth, and you know in your hearts and souls, all of you, that not one word has failed of all the good things that the LORD your God promised concerning you. All have come to pass for you; not one of them has failed.

So what did they not receive when Heb says, ESV | ‎Heb 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised?

IMHO, it has to be the City in the earth made new that Abraham was looking forward to, because as Hebrews says, we are just pilgrims here.

Originally Posted By: BO

Again, you're making up stories. The BIBLE says that God foretold the writing of the law in our hearts by the HS, this was not possible before Pentecost. If Jesus said the whole point of His coming was to send the Spirit, but the Spirit was available before and after His ministry, how does that make sense ?

ESV | ‎Dt 26:16 “This day the LORD your God commands you to do these statutes and rules. You shall therefore be careful to do them with all your heart and with all your soul.

ESV | ‎Dt 32:46 he said to them, “Take to heart all the words by which I am warning you today, that you may command them to your children, that they may be careful to do all the words of this law.

ESV | ‎Ps 119:34 Give me understanding, that I may keep your law and observe it with my whole heart.

The HS has been writing the law in the heart from the beginning.

PS. I use colors to distinguish what I say from what others say.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BO

If the proof of the Spirit is being a nice person, then my grandfather, who died an atheist, was saved.

People can be extremely nice for all the wrong reasons and not necessarily a fruit of the Spirit.