Pure Gospel versus Adulterated Gospel

[BobRyan]

The pure Gospel is in 1Cor 15, and Rev 14:6-7 and Romans 2:13-16. In those places God tells us that the investigative judgment is part of the Gospel. And in Matt 7 God is clear that not all are going to heaven. In fact it is only those who "confess sin" that are "forgiven of sin" in 1John 1:9.

To him that knows to do right - and does it not - to him it is sin.

The gospel offers salvation by grace through faith - in Christ. Some accept it - but many reject it because the Christ of the Gospel is the one that in Matt 10 said "do not think that I came to bring peace I came not to bring peace but rather a sword" and the enemies of the saints are members of their own homes according to Christ in Matt 10.

in Christ,

Bob

[Samie]

The pure Gospel is in 1Cor 15, and Rev 14:6-7 and Romans 2:13-16. In those places God tells us that the investigative judgment is part of the Gospel. And in Matt 7 God is clear that not all are going to heaven. In fact it is only those who "confess sin" that are "forgiven of sin" in 1John 1:9.

To him that knows to do right - and does it not - to him it is sin.

The gospel offers salvation by grace through faith - in Christ. Some accept it - but many reject it because the Christ of the Gospel is the one that in Matt 10 said "do not think that I came to bring peace I came not to bring peace but rather a sword" and the enemies of the saints are members of their own homes according to Christ in Matt 10.

in Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob;

I guess I have already answered the concern you raise relative to 1 John 1:9. Please just see post #507888 in page 1 of this thread.

Thank you.

[doug yowell]

The thief on the Cross was "saved by Jesus Christ" even though he never overcame even one sin/evil in his life. The thief on the Cross never got to do even one good deed of righteousness either. Yet Jesus Christ Himself testified that this thief on the Cross was among the saved. His name is in the Book of Life.

This is a common but mistakenly held understanding of the story of the thief on the cross. The depth of his actions are altogether lost on most who read the story. In fact, if Paul's description (with all due apologies to Dr. Rich)of righteousness by faith is correct ("But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead,you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.")and corresponds with Jesus' own words ("This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent"),the thief did do at least one deed of righteousness! And that while hanging next to a condemned and dying "Lord".

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

Hi Samie,

"9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."(1 John 1:9)

Confession of sin is required before forgiveness of sin.

Q,E.D.

With all due respect, the verse does not explicitly say confession is required although in your view it appears to be so.

I wonder what 1 John 1:9 does explicitly say?

"9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."(1 John 1:9)

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: RLH

There is simply to much overwhelming evidence to the contrary in scripture' date=' for you to be able to make that statement. You are taking things out of context, and making applications of it where scripture doesn't actually suggest, when you look at the whole picture.

Look up every text that has anything to do with the topic, instead of just the few that seem to back up your theory by themselves. That way you can see the whole picture, and by God's grace get a correct view.

Here are just a few for your consideration, but you should look them all up.

2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Eze 33:18,19 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

Sorry, but I NEVER claimed nor even hinted that "all will come to repentance". What I said was "All were forgiven". Forgiveness is God's work; repentance is man's.[/quote']RLH is correct and you didn't address the first 2 texts that he quoted but instead rather chose to only respond to the last. You are also not clear on what you think forgiveness entails. Forgiveness requires that one must ask and accept for it as well as One offering and being willing to give it. If forgiveness is merely a one way street then the problem lies only with the one who can forgive and the one creating the offense is automatically not responsible for the consequences of their offense.Your scenerio grants forgiveness for sin regardless of how the sinner responds to it. It creates a situation where,if the sinner is already forgiven, they need not ask for forgiveness because they have already been forgiven and therefore there remains nothing to ask forgiveness for.Yet, as RLH has already alluded to, Jesus own words convey a clear meaning:" For IF you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE men their trespasses, NEITHER WILL YOUR FATHER FORGIVE YOU." So the condition of one's forgiveness with God is contingent on more than God's willingness to forgive us.Or how bout Jesus words "he who believes in HIm is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed ..."?

[miz3]

4. Not everyone who is saved will have overcome every sin in their life. This is why Gospels A & B above are wrong. The thief on the Cross was "saved by Jesus Christ" even though he never overcame even one sin/evil in his life. The thief on the Cross never got to do even one good deed of righteousness either. Yet Jesus Christ Himself testified that this thief on the Cross was among the saved. His name is in the Book of Life.

5. No works of any kind are ever required for Salvation and are not necessary for a human entity to be in Heaven.

6. There is only one Standard and that is found in Matthew chapter seven and Matthew chapter twenty-five for entrance. It says, "only those who Jesus Christ "KNOWS" will enter Heaven.

It also says that those who Jesus Christ "does NOT KNOW" will be shut from Heaven and will burn in Hell.

The only relevant question is, "Does Jesus Christ KNOW you?". Jesus Christ KNEW the thief on the Cross and that is why he is saved.

1. Let me be clear as to what is meant. Human works are not the result of the human entity on "their own" doing something. Human works are the result of the Power of God working within a person. It is God in you that does the "good works"/"does the overcoming".

The human entity is not capable of doing "anything" on their own as John chapter 15 verse five points out. So when the human "overcomes/good works" it is not the human but God/Holy Spirit who is doing the overcoming/good works.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,"

Galatians 5:22.

Notice it doesn't say the "fruit of the human overcomer", but it says the "fruit of the Spirit". The "fruits" which are overcoming/good deeds are not from the human entity but are from the Holy Spirit.

"filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God."

Philippians 1:11.

Notice again, that the good deeds, the overcoming, the display of righteousness, etc. are NOT done for the "benefit of the human entity" but are done for one reason only and that is to "glorify God".

"There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men."

1Corinthians 12:6.

Once again not human work/overcoming but God who is working within the human entity.

"But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me."

1 Corinthians 15:10.

Paul clearly tells us that it is God and not himself, Paul, which produces the Good in Paul.

"And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work."

2Corinthians 9:8.

Once again it is not the human entity producing the overcoming and good works but it is God/Holy Spirit. Notice the text says, "every good work".

That means that all your good works are not the product of your overcoming/doing but are the product of God/Holy Spirit.

Thus, you cannot take credit for anything good in you at all because it is all the "work" of God and only the "work" of God.

2. Why are overcoming/doing works important then?

Here is the answer from the Bible:

"In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven."

Matthew 5:16.

Notice the good works/overcoming is not so the human entity can get a reward when God comes. NO!

The good works/overcoming is for the Father's Glory.

Yes, God gets the Glory because He is the One who did the good work/overcoming in you.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

Hi Samie,

"9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."(1 John 1:9)

Confession of sin is required before forgiveness of sin.

Q,E.D.

Originally Posted By: Samie

With all due respect, the verse does not explicitly say confession is required although in your view it appears to be so.

I wonder what 1 John 1:9 does explicitly say?

"9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."(1 John 1:9)

Well, if you wanted it to say what you think it says, so be it. But you need to reconcile that with other portions of Scriptures. Remember, we are not to weave our doctrines around one or two verses.

[Samie]

RLH is correct and you didn't address the first 2 texts that he quoted but instead rather chose to only respond to the last.

[doug yowell]

For IF you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE men their trespasses, NEITHER WILL YOUR FATHER FORGIVE YOU." So the condition of one's forgiveness with God is contingent on more than God's willingness to forgive us

True, before his death on the cross. The New Covenant was only ratified by the Lord's death on the cross.

[doug yowell]

Sorry, but the verse you quoted from John 3:18 seems not related with forgiveness, I guess. The next verse explains what the condemnation was all about:

KJV John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

It's related in that a forgiven person cannot be condemned justly for something that they've been forgiven for.So how can a person be both unconditionally forgiven and conditionally condemned by the Forgiver at the same time?

[Q.E.D.]

I wonder what 1 John 1:9 does explicitly say?

"9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."(1 John 1:9)

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

For IF you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE men their trespasses, NEITHER WILL YOUR FATHER FORGIVE YOU." So the condition of one's forgiveness with God is contingent on more than God's willingness to forgive us

True, before his death on the cross. The New Covenant was only ratified by the Lord's death on the cross.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Sorry, but the verse you quoted from John 3:18 seems not related with forgiveness, I guess. The next verse explains what the condemnation was all about:

KJV John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

It's related in that a forgiven person cannot be condemned justly for something that they've been forgiven for.So how can a person be both unconditionally forgiven and conditionally condemned by the Forgiver at the same time?

You say it is forgiveness-related, I say it is not.

The reason is, the term "condemnation" in Jn 3:19 simply refers to a decision rendered, a verdict, unlike the "condemnation" in Rom 8:1 where it is a damnatory sentence. It is apparent you meant "damnatory sentence" for "condemnation" in Jn 3:19. Sadly, it is not. The NASB renders it this way:

NASB John 3:18-19 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil.

In Christ the Righteous Judge,

Samie

[BobRyan]

The pure Gospel is in 1Cor 15, and Rev 14:6-7 and Romans 2:13-16. In those places God tells us that the investigative judgment is part of the Gospel. And in Matt 7 God is clear that not all are going to heaven. In fact it is only those who "confess sin" that are "forgiven of sin" in 1John 1:9.

To him that knows to do right - and does it not - to him it is sin.

The gospel offers salvation by grace through faith - in Christ. Some accept it - but many reject it because the Christ of the Gospel is the one that in Matt 10 said "do not think that I came to bring peace I came not to bring peace but rather a sword" and the enemies of the saints are members of their own homes according to Christ in Matt 10.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Q,E.D.

I wonder what 1 John 1:9 does explicitly say?

"9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."(1 John 1:9)

Originally Posted By: Samie

Well, if you wanted it to say what you think it says, so be it. But you need to reconcile that with other portions of Scriptures. Remember, we are not to weave our doctrines around one or two verses.

Good Morning Samie,

You didn't answer the question I asked about 1 John 1:9.

Perhaps you didn't understand what I was asking. I was not looking for a 5 page theological discorse about the greek involved, the culture of the time or what it means to the post modern mind.

I just wanted to know what do you think 1 John 1:9 says? You claimed that it did not explicitly say confession of sin is necessary for forgiveness.

So I ask again, what do you think 1 John 1:9 explicitly says according to you?

Happy New Year,

Q.E.D.

Hi Q.E.D.;

Happy New Year, too. Before I dwell on your question, please consider the ff:

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time...

Isaiah 6:1 1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple... 5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah 21:10 O my threshing, and the corn of my floor: that which I have heard of the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, have I declared unto you.

John had said that no man had seen God at anytime. Yet Isaiah said he had seen God! Are we supposed to say John was wrong and Isaiah was right? Or that John was right and Isaiah wrong? Or find a way how to harmonize the two?

While trying to ponder on the above, do you now realize why I said the verse in 1 Jn 1:9 does not explicitly say confession is necessary for forgiveness? I know you understand.

Thank you, brother.

[Samie]

Hi Bob;

Yes, repentance is a must but NOT for forgiveness. Forgiveness is God's grace; repentance is man's work. Human work can never qualify as requisite for God's grace.

KJV Romans 11:6 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

Because of sin, the world is dead. Christ came to give it life. Christ knows the world being dead cannot do anything. It cannot yet repent. It has first to be brought back to life. The only way for the world to be brought back to life is to remove that which made it dead, SIN. The only way to get rid of sin is to forgive it. The only way to be forgiven is pay the penalty for SIN, death. Christ died, and we were forgiven. Now, we can repent.

Repentance can NEVER precede forgiveness. It would be placing the cart before the horse.

[doug yowell]

[While trying to ponder on the above, do you now realize why I said the verse in 1 Jn 1:9 does not explicitly say confession is necessary for forgiveness? I know you understand.

Thank you, brother.

I can't speak for Q but I can speak for my understanding of not only this answer but all of your previous answers.You simply have not answered the question. Q asked you to tell him what you think IJohn1:9 explicitly says and you respond by telling him what you think it doesn't say.As everyone here has pointed out the Scriptures explicitly portray that the effectivness of Divine forgiveness is conditional upon man's willingness to partake in it's benefits.When God unconditionally offers the forgiveness of sins He also provides mankind (me)the ability to accept the offer or reject it. My fate lies in my own response. The words "if" are not meaningless transcriptional additions,Old Covenant relics, or misunderstood grammatical mysteries if the OT was the only Scriptures that the NT writers had to base their understanding of salvation on. The parables that Jesus told by introducing them with "The kingdom of heaven is like..."(the unforgiving servant of Matt.18,the unpardonable sin of Mark 3, ect...ect...ect...)are so simple that even I can understand them. Imposing foreign meanings to concepts that are that basic seems rather suspicious to me.

[doug yowell]

You say it is forgiveness-related, I say it is not.

The reason is, the term "condemnation" in Jn 3:19 simply refers to a decision rendered, a verdict, unlike the "condemnation" in Rom 8:1 where it is a damnatory sentence. It is apparent you meant "damnatory sentence" for "condemnation" in Jn 3:19. Sadly, it is not.

The English word means the same thing in every context it's used. It's used as the statement of the judgment of guilt. And the guilty cannot be the guiltless.Belief acquires the forgiveness freely given. Unbelief rejects that forgiveness and leaves the rejecter guilty and merely awaiting the execution of justice. Obviously, we speak a different language.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

[While trying to ponder on the above, do you now realize why I said the verse in 1 Jn 1:9 does not explicitly say confession is necessary for forgiveness? I know you understand.

Thank you, brother.

I can't speak for Q but I can speak for my understanding of not only this answer but all of your previous answers.You simply have not answered the question. Q asked you to tell him what you think IJohn1:9 explicitly says and you respond by telling him what you think it doesn't say.As everyone here has pointed out the Scriptures explicitly portray that the effectivness of Divine forgiveness is conditional upon man's willingness to partake in it's benefits.When God unconditionally offers the forgiveness of sins He also provides mankind (me)the ability to accept the offer or reject it. My fate lies in my own response. The words "if" are not meaningless transcriptional additions,Old Covenant relics, or misunderstood grammatical mysteries if the OT was the only Scriptures that the NT writers had to base their understanding of salvation on. The parables that Jesus told by introducing them with "The kingdom of heaven is like..."(the unforgiving servant of Matt.18,the unpardonable sin of Mark 3, ect...ect...ect...)are so simple that even I can understand them. Imposing foreign meanings to concepts that are that basic seems rather suspicious to me.

Yes, newly-found truth always look suspicious.

I noticed too, that, while I have provided a good number of Biblical verses proving what I believe, the only objection offered is the lone verse in 1 John 1:9, upon which verse I believe I had given my position clear. Also, nobody had ever tried proving from Scriptures how it is possible for the spiritually dead to repent or confess. Nobody had ever attempted of objecting to the fact that it was the death of Christ that forgiveness was effected and that after having been forgiven it was only when man became spiritually alive and capable of confessing, repenting, deciding to be baptized, etc.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

You say it is forgiveness-related, I say it is not.

The reason is, the term "condemnation" in Jn 3:19 simply refers to a decision rendered, a verdict, unlike the "condemnation" in Rom 8:1 where it is a damnatory sentence. It is apparent you meant "damnatory sentence" for "condemnation" in Jn 3:19. Sadly, it is not.

The English word means the same thing in every context it's used. It's used as the statement of the judgment of guilt. And the guilty cannot be the guiltless.Belief acquires the forgiveness freely given. Unbelief rejects that forgiveness and leaves the rejecter guilty and merely awaiting the execution of justice. Obviously, we speak a different language.

We can speak the same language, if you back up your explanations with Scriptures. Again, forgiveness is God's grace:

Titus 3:4-7 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 2:4-5 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Repentance and confession are human works, spiritual deeds that can only be possible after man had been made spiritually alive. Human works cannot qualify as requisite for obtaining grace.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[Guest]

Yes, newly-found truth always look suspicious.

[Samie]

Yes, newly-found truth always look suspicious.

[Gibs]

Samie,

The text that Jesus said to the woman to go sin no more after He forgave her makes it clear there is something then for one to do,

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

When we are led to the Throne of grace by His Spirit that draws us there and we truly repent He is True and faithful to forgive all sin in the past but that doesn't include sin from then on. That is where most make a sad mistake.

Then Paul comes along then and makes this "mystery" clear to the Gentiles that was known to the Jews,

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This is the All powerful way for any man or woman then to do what He tells one to do after going in True Repentance and He states, "Go sin no more", we can be and must be empowerd to do so and it is available to all. Yes this is the faith in Him that all must have if they ever come to His salvation.

His Way is the Only Way there is and ever will be. It is the faith that works when knowing He is the All in All for us. He in us, His Divine Nature is our Hope of Glory.

Man does a lot of cobbling but all in vain. Towers of Babel is what man builds.

For SDA's here, EGW, states,

" We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality.--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891." {TDG 175.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

Samie,

The text that Jesus said to the woman to go sin no more after He forgave her makes it clear there is something then for one to do,

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

When we are led to the Throne of grace by His Spirit that draws us there and we truly repent He is True and faithful to forgive all sin in the past but that doesn't include sin from then on. That is where most make a sad mistake.

Then Paul comes along then and makes this "mystery" clear to the Gentiles that was known to the Jews,

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This is the All powerful way for any man or woman then to do what He tells one to do after going in True Repentance and He states, "Go sin no more", we can be and must be empowerd to do so and it is available to all. Yes this is the faith in Him that all must have if they ever come to His salvation.

His Way is the Only Way there is and ever will be. It is the faith that works when knowing He is the All in All for us. He in us, His Divine Nature is our Hope of Glory.

Man does a lot of cobbling but all in vain. Towers of Babel is what man builds.

For SDA's here, EGW, states,

" We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality.--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891." {TDG 175.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

This is what I was saying all along. We were all forgiven on the cross. That behooves us to stop sinning which is repentance - turning away from sin - which is simply overcoming.