Can Abortion be a Blessing?

[Gibs]

Today it is more a birth control method that is illegal and murder. Morally illegal, the law above man's laws. Most women should I would think if a True Christian would give her life to have the baby live.

We do not have the right to take a life under any circumstance.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

He the Lord God is the Author of that life from git go.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[doug yowell]

It seems easy to pontificate on an issue if one has never been and never will be in the situation...

Just saying...

Love that pontificate part,Tom.I trust you'll never post your opinions on the morality of anything you've never personally experienced? And in this context, is it beyond the scope of Christians (many of which HAVE been thru this experience)to rightly determine right from wrong?

[doug yowell]

Today it is more a birth control method that is illegal and murder. Morally illegal, the law above man's laws. Most women should I would think if a True Christian would give her life to have the baby live.

We do not have the right to take a life under any circumstance.

Even if the life of the baby threatens the mother's life? Even if it is thought that both might die (Nan's example)? Even if the mother has other children that are dependent on her? Is the death of the mother then morally mandatory?

[doug yowell]

Asking a rape victim to carry the pregnancy to term is adding insult to the injury, imo.

Why? Wouldn't giving the unwanted baby to someone else who wanted it be noble and honorable thing to do? Would you consider Ethel Waters, the infamous gospel singer, and hundreds of other loving and productive people to be insults to their mothers?

[miz3]

Is God or is not God in "CONTROL"?

Is God a liar when He says that He knows when "the sparrow falls"?

Are we going to be like Jacob and/or Uzzah and think we have to step into a situation because we believe if we don't God missed something and thus needs us to intervene.

Is it fine for us to think up scenarios where the "choices" are impossible and try and expect that the human entity must solve such scenarios apart from God.

Is this because we cannot "Trust" God to do the right thing let alone for God do anything at all?

It appears that we humans think that we have to solve every iota of every iota apart from God.

Why cannot we just TRUST God to work everything out the way He wants to, knowing that what God decides in regard to everything including the life/death of mothers/baby in the most difficult of situations is the best solution.

Where is it written that the human must decide these things?

[Nic Samojluk]

Nan wrote:

“You are speaking of anencephaly. The central nervous system forms from a hollow tube, and if this does not close over, proper development ceases. Mild forms of spina bifida are one example, if the cranial portion fails to close the brain does not develop, there is nothing to coordinate breathing. There

are instances when the hearts of babies with anencephaly have been transplanted into newborns with major cardiac defects. I write with personal as well as professional knowledge and experience.”

I had a niece who was born with a spina bifida. She lived for about a month. She was loved and cared for until her natural death. Are you suggesting that she should have been killed and her organs donated to somebody else? There is no way to remove the heart from a baby without killing her/him!

[Nic Samojluk]

dialoguewithus wrote:

“After the first trimester, viability becomes more of an issue and the privacy of the mother less.”

Can we apply the same reasoning to other criminal acts less violent than killing innocent unborn babies like stealing, rape, or the sexual abuse of children? Would you justify stealing a car, raping a woman, or sexually abusing a child as permissible acts under difficult circumstances? And don’t forget that if someone steals my car, I can probably replace my loss. When you steal the life of an unborn baby, the loss is permanent.

“My main point is that society should support women facing difficult situations rather than judging them.”

I say yes on support! Does it follow that we should also support her decision to kill her own unborn child in violation of the Sixth Commandment? Is this the kind of support you recommend?

“Texas teaches abstinence-only sex ed and has a high teen pregnancy rate, more than 50% above the national average.”

Would you argue that God made a mistake when he forbade fornication and adultery?

[Nic Samojluk]

Nan wrote:

“What is the belief of those who consider abortion in every circumstance to bewrong, if the pregnancy is a genuine threat to the life of the mother?”

The role of a physician is to save lives. If he/she can save only one life instead of two, he/she should be commended for doing so. He/she is still a true pro-lifer. Some years ago there was a woman in Poland who refused the offer of her physician to save her from a sure death in the event she decided to continue with her pregnancy. She died, and her baby died also; and several children became orphans.

Of course, there was a documented case where the result was the opposite. A woman was being treated for TB and it seemed like her chances of surviving were very slim. She requested permission from her physician to go home for Christmas. The doctor let her go on condition that she did not become pregnant. On her return to the hospital it was discovered that she was in fact pregnant. Her doctor recommended an abortion, but she refused. As the baby grew, it pushed against the woman lungs, and her infected lungs began to heal. She gave birth to a healthy baby an she was cured from her illness.

[Nic Samojluk]

Gerry Cabalo wrote:

“Would a pregnancy carried to term be a blessing to a 12 yo victim of rape?”

Would being an accomplice to the murder of her own unborn baby be a blessing to that girl? An abortion will not unrape the victim; it will simply compound the injustice; it will add another and more violent act to the rape: murder.

The girl can give the baby for adoption. She will more likely make peace with her soul knowing that an infertile couple has been blessed than if she has to carry a load of guilt for the rest of her life knowing that she had consented to the killing of her own baby.

Giving the baby for adoption is a redemptive act; abortion is not! Society lets the criminal rapit live; how can we punish the baby for the sin of its father?

[Nic Samojluk]

olger wrote:

“About 42 million women in America have something in common. They have had an abortion.”

Fifty three million babies have something in common. They were killed before they have had a chance to take their first breath in “the land of the free,” the land where the right to life is guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.

Six million Jews have something in common. They were exterminated by Hitler for their sin of having been born in the wrong ethnic group.

Twenty million Ukrainians were killed by Stalin for their refusal to donate their land to the State.

Should I go on?

[Nic Samojluk]

pkrause wrote:

“I do agree that ultimately Life and Death are God's domain, this is one reason I'm against the death penalty, but I disagree that we don't have a choice. Everything we do in life is a choice. To get up or not, to drive a car intoxicated or not, to smoke or not, to choose Jesus as our Savior or not, to do drugs or not, to ask for forgiveness or not, etc. All life or death decisions, at least in my book. God allows us to make choice's, be they right or wrong.”

Yes! Even life and death decisions are based on personal choice. Nevertheless, there are serious consequences to wrong choices about life and death. King David made the wrong choice about Uriah. He took somebody else’s life and somebody else’s wife. The Lord did forgive him his terrible sin, but the natural consequences of his wrong choice were very bitter for him.

“Now do I believe in abortion? No I don't, but I believe that its a choice that is made between an individual and God.”

If I take a sledge hammer and damage my car, this is between God and myself, unless I have a wife and she needs the car for shopping or work; nevertheless, if I use the sledge hammer to damage your car, then this is not between myself and God. It is now between myself, you, and God.

If I use the same instrument against an innocent baby, then this is not between myself and God; it is between myself, the baby, my wife, the government whose task is to protect humans, and God.

[Gibs]

The baby is so defenseless and needs to have a way to defend it's self and that should be it's mother and daddy.

The poor baby don't have a gun in it's hands or it would have the right to shoot back you bet to protect it's self same as a grown person.

Maybe this stems from a lack of True Love that so many claim to have but prove to be non existant.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Nic Samojluk]

Gerry Cabalo wrote:

“Are you buying a chicken when you buy a fertilized egg? I would have no qualms giving the "morning-after" pill to any rape victim of any child-bearing age. Asking a rape victim to carry the pregnancy to term is adding insult to the injury, imo.”

Suppose we grant that a fertilized egg represents a gray area; would it follow that abortions on demand should be legal and that the Adventist Church was justified in allowing our Adventist hospitals to profit from the killing of—not fertilizd eggs—but rather developing unborn babies which can be identified as human beings by the fact of having arms, legs, a torso, a head and a heart pumping blood?

We can eat a fertilized chicken egg without a moral struggle, but it takes more courage to chop the head of a live chicken off. I know this by experience. I missed, and the chicken run away with her beak off. That was the last time I attempted to kill a chicken. Could I stomach the butchering of an unborn baby. The answer is No. I have no idea how abortionists manage to do this!

[Nic Samojluk]

Tom Wetmore wrote:

“It seems easy to pontificate on an issue if one has never been and never will be in the situation.”

True! Most of those who condemn the killing of unborn babies can never experience pregnancy. Do they have a right to pontificate? I believe they do for the simple reason that Nine Unelected Justices of the Court decided to issue a ruling which gave abortionists the license to profit from the murder of 53 million human victims.

If men were responsible for tinkering with the right to life of people, men have the right to straighten what other men have twisted.

[doug yowell]

Tom Wetmore wrote:

“It seems easy to pontificate on an issue if one has never been and never will be in the situation.”

Wait a minute. Isn't that exactly what attorneys are paid to do? Does the DA or the defense lawyer have to have been a murderer in order to make a case for or against? Or ethicists.

[doug yowell]

True! Most of those who condemn the killing of unborn babies can never experience pregnancy.

Not true!! Every study shows that women make up a greater % of those who oppose abortion. More men support abortion than women.Even the Christian church is filled with women who have had abortions that they deeply regret. They are some of the most adamant opponents in condemning it's practice.The idea that this question is really about men attempting to control women is just another lie concocted in order to obscure the truth, just like the thousands of back alley/coathanger victims that died each year before legalization.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Are you buying a chicken when you buy a fertilized egg?

Since chickens are never described as "made in the image of God" I'm not sure why one would want to equate the essence of humanity with the barnyard.

That's just my way of asking - is a fertilized ovum a human being? What is the "image of God?" I can't see a fertilized ovum as being in the image of God by any stretch of the imagination.

While we don't have as yet a test that detects pregnancy within hours of fertilization of the ovum, let us assume for the sake of discussion that fertilization has taken place. Do you find it objectionable to give the "morning-after-pill" to a rape victim?

[doug yowell]

That's just my way of asking - is a fertilized ovum a human being?

If I remember my biology correctly,(no guarantees) and human life begins at conception then,Yes, a fertilized human ovum is a human being. What else can it be?What else will it become? If left alone it will live or die a human being. It is the only way that God has chosen to begin and propagate human life, and He has given every human the responsibility of protecting it. God Himself took this very same jurney when condescending to become fully human.Therefore I must concur that the importance that God places on the reproductive process indicates that He values even the single cell as the image of God.Everything that will make up the final product is found in that zygote. It is fully human and it's identity is easily distinguishable from any other life form.It is the source of DNA and is responsible for every detail of human development.Thus I must also object to the morning after pill given in full knowledge of what it's result will be.

Now I have answered your questions and it's your turn to respond to mine. You've noted that you cannot consider the fertilized egg as being in the image of God. At what point of human development would you identify with absolute certainty that the ("thing") is now in God's image? When does the developing human reach the point of non-negotiable value?Or clarifying your comments, when would, (what once was) the fertilized egg reach the point of becoming a human being, now qualified to be considered as in the image of God?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

That's just my way of asking - is a fertilized ovum a human being?

If I remember my biology correctly,(no guarantees) and human life begins at conception then,Yes, a fertilized human ovum is a human being. What else can it be?What else will it become? If left alone it will live or die a human being. It is the only way that God has chosen to begin and propagate human life, and He has given every human the responsibility of protecting it. God Himself took this very same jurney when condescending to become fully human.Therefore I must concur that the importance that God places on the reproductive process indicates that He values even the single cell as the image of God.Everything that will make up the final product is found in that zygote. It is fully human and it's identity is easily distinguishable from any other life form.It is the source of DNA and is responsible for every detail of human development.Thus I must also object to the morning after pill given in full knowledge of what it's result will be.

Now I have answered your questions and it's your turn to respond to mine. You've noted that you cannot consider the fertilized egg as being in the image of God. At what point of human development would you identify with absolute certainty that the ("thing") is now in God's image? When does the developing human reach the point of non-negotiable value?Or clarifying your comments, when would, (what once was) the fertilized egg reach the point of becoming a human being, now qualified to be considered as in the image of God?

On this subject I could not do more to concur fully with what you are saying. Excellent job.

[Overaged]

[Woody]

I find that private things are best left private.

[Gibs]

This verse always comes up in my mind on this issue,

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Even "before" that makes one set up and think, does it not. Are any of us our own?

The persons who are responsible better think twice on this. Just because some may not want the helpless babe doesn't give them the right to kill it.

It is nothing but a wrong way of not having the child more than anything else regardless of all the excusses.

Put up the tools if you don't want to build the building.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

If I remember my biology correctly,(no guarantees) and human life begins at conception then,

BTW, you did not answer my question - what is the image of God?

Most people probably agree that life begins at conception. However, are not the sperm & the ovum also living things before they come together? Are these half humans?

If every zygote is a human being, why don't we find in scripture anyone being convicted of murder for causing an abortion/miscarriage?

Bear in mind that countless zygotes are rejected by nature usually for various abnormalities and are spontaneously aborted. Are these to be considered humans created in the image of God also?

Quote:

Now I have answered your questions and it's your turn to respond to mine. You've noted that you cannot consider the fertilized egg as being in the image of God. At what point of human development would you identify with absolute certainty that the ("thing") is now in God's image? When does the developing human reach the point of non-negotiable value?Or clarifying your comments, when would, (what once was) the fertilized egg reach the point of becoming a human being, now qualified to be considered as in the image of God?

I think we can also all agree that we are dealing with a very difficult issue, and that it is no surprise that there are differences of opinion. This should also make us all humble and not try to impose personal opinions on others in the absence of clear scriptural instruction.

First, let me state what I understand to be the "image of God." Adam & Eve who were said to be created in the image of God were adult, thinking, free moral agents. They were able to create. I like what EGW said in this regard: "Every human being, created in the image of God, is endowed with a power akin to that of the Creator-- individuality, power to think and to do." Ed p.18. So whatever power "to think & to do" in a zygote are only potentially present.

At what point does a human life become non-negotiable? That's a very difficult question. But for me, it is when the conceptus becomes a recognizable human being. Let me hasten to add that since this is such a difficult issue, my views are not set in stone. I am willing to change them as more truths are revealed.

[doug yowell]

BTW, you did not answer my question - what is the image of God?

Maybe you read past my answer or maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been (I'll assume the latter)so I'll restate it in a (more)simplerer way. The image of God is when a human being is fully human.It is an objective standard that can be applied to all human beings.It is not dependent on size,stage of development, location,moral capacity,or someone else's feelings.

[doug yowell]

Most people probably agree that life begins at conception. However, are not the sperm & the ovum also living things before they come together? Are these half humans?

True, they are "living things" but they are both products of two different distinctly, yet full human beings. Apart from the interaction with one another ("the two shall become one" like the union between Divinity and humanity in Christ, or the purpose of God for marriage)they can never become anything else, both will cease to exist in a few days. Not half+half=whole.But when (and you know this better than I)the egg accepts the sperm something miraculuous occurs.