Women leadership in church- seeking materials

[Gail]

Hey-

I suppose this is mostly a query for those living in the North American Division, but

I have a customer who is looking for some material for his church. He has a fellow church member, female, who passed the church board process to be chosen as an elder, but the woman has second thoughts about whether she should.

He is looking for material which is on the PRO side for having women's elders. I told him I'd throw it out there and see what others recommend.

[Gibs]

Gail,

Here is something EGW brought out,

At Hazeroth, the next encampment after leaving Taberah, a still more bitter trial awaited Moses. Aaron and Miriam had occupied a position of high honor and leadership in Israel. Both were endowed with the prophetic gift, and both had been divinely associated with Moses in the deliverance of the Hebrews. "I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam" (Micah 6:4), are the words of the Lord by the prophet Micah. Miriam's force of character had been early displayed when as a child she watched beside the Nile the little basket in which was hidden the infant Moses. Her self-control and tact God had made instrumental in preserving the deliverer of His people. Richly endowed with the gifts of poetry and music, Miriam had led the women of Israel in song and dance on the shore of the Red Sea. In the affections of the people and the honor of Heaven she stood second only to Moses and Aaron. But the same evil that first brought discord in heaven sprang up in the heart of this woman of Israel, and she did not fail to find a sympathizer in her dissatisfaction. {PP 382.3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

Thanks, Gibs- much appreciated!

[Kevin H]

Although this is not Adventist material, it is by a Methodist Archaeologist, but it is not some liberal argument but good solid Bible Study is Jim Flemings "The Role of Women in the Bible"

Dr. Fleming's new website is:

http://www.explorationsinantiquity.com/biography.htm

Another website for him is:

http://www.biblicalresources.net/

He is one of my 2 most infuentual teachers, Jim is on the advisory board of the "Biblical Archaeology Review" and is CEO and founder of the Explorations in Antiquity Center in LaGrange, Georgia, a unique museum whose mission is to help people experience the ancient Biblical world, its history and culture.

Sadly I don't see where you can just order his taped lectures, but contact them and they can let you know. They can at least sell you their notebook which gives a lot more information. As I aluded to, too often it is liberal arguments for women's ordination and conservative arguments against it, and the conservative tend to just attack the liberalness of the liberal arguments and offer tradition as a solution. However through Dr. Fleming you will find some very Biblically sound studes from the Bible, Archaeoogy, and history that will give a Biblical Basis for the ordnation of women. Arguments that would be very hard for the conservatives who are against the orination of women would have a very hard time trying to answer.

[miz3]

Hey-

I suppose this is mostly a query for those living in the North American Division, but

I have a customer who is looking for some material for his church. He has a fellow church member, female, who passed the church board process to be chosen as an elder, but the woman has second thoughts about whether she should.

He is looking for material which is on the PRO side for having women's elders. I told him I'd throw it out there and see what others recommend.

Gail may I suggest that you go to our discussion in the forum "Real Issues in Adventism today". The thread was "TED on Women in Leadership".

There is a lot of material on the pro side which includes much discussion of Biblical passages. You can decide which ones you think best fit the situation.

We need good women Leaders in the SDA Church .org today.

[Nan]

Some years ago our Sydney Adventist Forum's speaker was

the onetime president of the Uniting Church here, and his

topic related to women in church roles. I do not recall all

he said, but he used Romans 16 to show how importantly

Paul regarded the women in the early church....I think there

are 11 mentioned (that is from memory of the talk, not my research).

Not sure if this would help your friend Gail.

[Kevin H]

Nan, an additional point on the women in Romans 16 is that while Paul met if they happened to be where he was, but when he wrote Romans Paul had never been to Rome,he was not thanking them for the fantastic fellowship dinner he had when in town, but knew their reputation as ministers and leaders in the work.

[Aussiemike]

Gail,

Here is something EGW brought out,

At Hazeroth, the next encampment after leaving Taberah, a still more bitter trial awaited Moses. Aaron and Miriam had occupied a position of high honor and leadership in Israel. Both were endowed with the prophetic gift, and both had been divinely associated with Moses in the deliverance of the Hebrews. "I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam" (Micah 6:4), are the words of the Lord by the prophet Micah. Miriam's force of character had been early displayed when as a child she watched beside the Nile the little basket in which was hidden the infant Moses. Her self-control and tact God had made instrumental in preserving the deliverer of His people. Richly endowed with the gifts of poetry and music, Miriam had led the women of Israel in song and dance on the shore of the Red Sea. In the affections of the people and the honor of Heaven she stood second only to Moses and Aaron. But the same evil that first brought discord in heaven sprang up in the heart of this woman of Israel, and she did not fail to find a sympathizer in her dissatisfaction. {PP 382.3}

Lets not misquote Ellen White. There is a big difference between a Prophet and an Elder. God calls prophets male and female according to his own will. Elders are appointed by the church according to biblical guidelines.

There were a number of female prophets in the bible but no women elders. This is because Paul made it clear that women were not to serve in the position of elder.

In the above EGW quote you will read that she said Miriam led the women not the men. Also she was second only to Moses and Aaron meaning that as a female prophet she was subordinate to her brothers.

"1 Timothy 2:11-15 “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became the sinner. "

teaching and having authority over men is a job description of an elder.

“The divine arrangement, even from the beginning, is this,that the man is the head of the woman. Every relation is disregarded or abused in this lawless age. But Scriptures always maintain this order in the family relation.'For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church.' Eph.5:23. Man is entitled to certain privileges which are not given to woman: and he is subjected to some duties and burdens from which the wife is exempt. A woman may pray, prophecy, exhort, and comfort the church, but she cannot occupy the position of a pastor or a ruling elder. This would be looked upon as usurping the authority over the man, which is here [1 Tim 2:12] prohibited.”. Womens place in the Gospel. Signs of the Times Dec 19, 1878 p380 Ed. J.H.Waggoner.

[Gail]

Much appreciated, all of you- thank you! I will follow up on this

[Woody]

Quote:

I have a customer who is looking for some material for his church. He has a fellow church member, female, who passed the church board process to be chosen as an elder, but the woman has second thoughts about whether she should.

Just tell her GO FOR IT. Woody says it's okay. No questions asked.

Okay - You can also tell her that Ellen White also approved of women pastors.

But I think that the "Woody says" at to be enough.

[Aussiemike]

Quote:

I have a customer who is looking for some material for his church. He has a fellow church member, female, who passed the church board process to be chosen as an elder, but the woman has second thoughts about whether she should.

Okay - You can also tell her that Ellen White also approved of women pastors.

Are you serious? Where do you get this nonsense from?

[Woody]

Just do a search here on ClubA . Many quotes are posted here. Really no need to rehash it all here again.

[Woody]

OR - One can simply accept that the church currently HAS women pastors and has approved of having women as pastors. Many SDA women pastors are all over the world.

[Kevin H]

One of the points that Fleming points out is that the Jews had been ordaining women until about 100 BC when a Rabbi had a bad marriage and said some negative things against women and in Jesus' day the LIBERALS refused to ordain women, while the CONSERVATIVES were still ordaining women.

He also points out that the structure was that the Rabbi would sit in a chair. If someone was being ordained they got to sit at the Rabbi's feet. Then the non-ordained men would stand around and the women were to be around the edges doing different tasks and listen while they perform these tasks. They were not allowed to stop and just stand and listen.

Correct me if my memory is failing me, but I seem to remember that the Bible said that Martha was doing what women were suposed to be doing, and that Mary tried to not mearly stop and stand with Lazarus and any other man there, but tried to assume the position of being ordained, but that Jesus reminded her that to sit at her feet in that culture meant that she was being ordained (had the same meaning as having the conference president and the other elders putting their hands on someone at campmeeting) and that since ordaining women is wrong that Mary had to go to her position, or at least stand with the non-ordained. Surely of all peope we would not find Jesus allowing a woman to be in the position of ordination! If he was to do something that horrible we should disfellowship him.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Okay - You can also tell her that Ellen White also approved of women pastors.

Are you serious? Where do you get this nonsense from?

As you have often correctly pointed out Ellen White was a pastor/elder/administrator/leader of the SDA Church .org. for seventy odd years.

[Aussiemike]

As you have often correctly pointed out Ellen White was a pastor/elder/administrator/leader of the SDA Church .org. for seventy odd years.

On the contrary mister she was NEVER any of these things.

In the daily papers of various cities there have appeared articles which represent that there is a strife between Dr. Kellogg and Mrs. Ellen G. White as to which of them shall be leader of the Seventh-day Adventist people. As I read these articles I felt distressed beyond measure that anyone should so misunderstand my work and the work of Dr. Kellogg as to publish such misrepresentations. There has been no controversy between Dr. Kellogg and myself as to the question of leadership. No one has ever heard me claim the position of leader of the denomination. {8T 236.1}

I thank the Lord that He gave us the privilege of acting a part in the work from the beginning. But neither then nor since the work has grown to large proportions, during which time responsibilities have been widely distributed, has anyone heard me claiming the leadership of this people. {8T 237.3}

From the year 1844 till the present time I have received messages from the Lord and have given them to His people. This is my work--to give to the people the light that the Lord gives me. I am commissioned to receive and communicate His messages. I am not to appear before the people as holding any other position than that of a messenger with a message. {8T 237.4}

[Aussiemike]

OR - One can simply accept that the church currently HAS women pastors and has approved of having women as pastors. Many SDA women pastors are all over the world.

SO! Ancient Israel also approved of prophets of Baal.

The multitudes do not want Bible truth, because it interferes with the desires of the sinful, world-loving heart; and Satan supplies the deceptions which they love. {GC 594.2}

But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority--not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support. {GC 595.1}

Satan is constantly endeavoring to attract attention to man in the place of God. He leads the people to look to bishops, to pastors, to professors of theology, as their guides, instead of searching the Scriptures to learn their duty for themselves. Then, by controlling the minds of these leaders, he can influence the multitudes according to his will. {GC 595.2}

[phkrause]

The multitudes do not want Bible truth, because it interferes with the desires of the sinful, world-loving heart; and Satan supplies the deceptions which they love. {GC 594.2}

But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority--not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support. {GC 595.1}

Satan is constantly endeavoring to attract attention to man in the place of God. He leads the people to look to bishops, to pastors, to professors of theology, as their guides, instead of searching the Scriptures to learn their duty for themselves. Then, by controlling the minds of these leaders, he can influence the multitudes according to his will. {GC 595.2}

I agree Aussiemike, this was the downfall of ancient Israel. They allowed the leaders to tell them everything, without reading and checking it out themselves. This is why the majority rejected Jesus, because they never read scripture for themselves. They were under the impression that he was going to lead them against the romans and than become there King here on earth at that time. Even his Disciples thought so, especially Judas.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

As you have often correctly pointed out Ellen White was a pastor/elder/administrator/leader of the SDA Church .org. for seventy odd years.

On the contrary mister she was NEVER any of these things.

In the daily papers of various cities there have appeared articles which represent that there is a strife between Dr. Kellogg and Mrs. Ellen G. White as to which of them shall be leader of the Seventh-day Adventist people. As I read these articles I felt distressed beyond measure that anyone should so misunderstand my work and the work of Dr. Kellogg as to publish such misrepresentations. There has been no controversy between Dr. Kellogg and myself as to the question of leadership. No one has ever heard me claim the position of leader of the denomination. {8T 236.1}

I thank the Lord that He gave us the privilege of acting a part in the work from the beginning. But neither then nor since the work has grown to large proportions, during which time responsibilities have been widely distributed, has anyone heard me claiming the leadership of this people. {8T 237.3}

From the year 1844 till the present time I have received messages from the Lord and have given them to His people. This is my work--to give to the people the light that the Lord gives me. I am commissioned to receive and communicate His messages. I am not to appear before the people as holding any other position than that of a messenger with a message. {8T 237.4}

Let's zero in on this quote:

" From the year 1844 till the present time I have received messages from the Lord and have given them to His people. This is my work--to give to the people the light that the Lord gives me. I am commissioned to receive and communicate His messages. I am not to appear before the people as holding any other position than that of a messenger with a message. {8T 237.4}"

Let's zero in further to the part only in blue which you highlighted.

It says that Ellen White is only a "messenger with a message"

1. Are you aware that Moses was nothing more than a "messenger". The only responsibility God gave him was to relay messages from God to the people of Israel. In fact the Children of Israel concurred in this arrangement.

I would think for Ellen White to be like Moses is quite a lofty "leadership" position in spite of her modesty in other statements.

2. Did you further know that in Ellen White's day and time to be a messenger meant that you were a "pastor"/"administrator"/"leader"/"ordained"?

[Aussiemike]

I would think for Ellen White to be like Moses is quite a lofty "leadership" position in spite of her modesty in other statements.

2. Did you further know that in Ellen White's day and time to be a messenger meant that you were a "pastor"/"administrator"/"leader"/"ordained"?

To compare EGW with Moses is absurd. Moses spoke with God face to face. He was a type of Christ. EGW was a prophet who had visions and dreams. Not in the same league.

To be a messenger i.e. a prophet is has nothing to do with being a pastor/elder or leader. You simply want to believe this rubbish but your have no information to back it up.

[doug yowell]

"then the LOrd said, Hear now my words: If there is a prophet among you, I,the Lord, make myself known to him(her)in a vision:I speak to him(her)in a dream.Not so with my servant Moses." Miz argues that: A) Ellen White held a leadership position in the early SDA church equivalent to that of Moses.B)That leadership position was no different in authority than today's GC leader/church head pastor,family head,ect...C)It naturally follows that : a) any person who serves as GC president,head pastor,ect...also holds a position equal in authority to Moses. the gift of prophesy (messenger)is indistinguishible from that of "lofty leadership".What this proves is that women who are "called" to these leadership positions are, in fact, Ellen White/Moses equivalents. Deja vu,didn't Aaron and Miriam make that same argument?

[Tom Wetmore]

As the saying goes, "one man's rubbish is another man's treasure."

Aussiemike, I would invite you to read through the several exhaustive topics where these issues have have already been flogged to death. We've been over this territory over and over again.

Ellen White was issued ordained minster credentials by the General Conference for many years. Minister = Pastor. She certainly fulfilled a very pastoral role for the early Adventist Church. The term "messenger" in her day was in fact used in reference to pastors. Ellen White used it that way herself, referring to pastors/minsters as messengers of the Lord. That was how she referred to herself.

Earlier you indicated that there were no women elders in the NT. I have showed on several occasions in these discussion before that Paul indeed speaks of female elders as a part of the council of elders at Ephesus that ordained the young pastor Timothy. The original Greek is quite clear and specific that there were male and female elders.

There were also specific women identified as being disciples, apostles and ministers in the NT.

[Woody]

Exactly Tom.

There is all the truth needed in previous threads. If someone is really interested in Truth - it is here to be found. But if one is just interested in jibberish - then that is what they will spew.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

I would think for Ellen White to be like Moses is quite a lofty "leadership" position in spite of her modesty in other statements.

2. Did you further know that in Ellen White's day and time to be a messenger meant that you were a "pastor"/"administrator"/"leader"/"ordained"?

To compare EGW with Moses is absurd. Moses spoke with God face to face. He was a type of Christ. EGW was a prophet who had visions and dreams. Not in the same league.

To be a messenger i.e. a prophet is has nothing to do with being a pastor/elder or leader. You simply want to believe this rubbish but your have no information to back it up.

Ellen White wrote that messenger = pastor/elder/leader/ordained.

Second where in the Bible and the Bible only does it say that Moses was a "type of Christ".

Where does it say that Moses was "higher" than all the other Prophets. Book, Chapter, and verse please.

Third, Christ said that John the Baptist was the greatest Prophet.

You are highly misinformed in your facts.

[Aussiemike]

Ellen White was issued ordained minster credentials by the General Conference for many years. Minister = Pastor.

She certainly fulfilled a very pastoral role for the early Adventist Church. The term "messenger" in her day was in fact used in reference to pastors. Ellen White used it that way herself, referring to pastors/minsters as messengers of the Lord. That was how she referred to herself.

Earlier you indicated that there were no women elders in the NT. I have showed on several occasions in these discussion before that Paul indeed speaks of female elders as a part of the council of elders at Ephesus that ordained the young pastor Timothy. The original Greek is quite clear and specific that there were male and female elders.

There were also specific women identified as being disciples, apostles and ministers in the NT.

i will look at those sites. Show me where they are. However what you have said i have heard before and i regard it as total nonsense.

Even those people on the pro ordination group do not say that there were women elders in the NT. If the Greek was quite clear as you claim that would end the arguments but the arguments continue.

You make the false claim that minister = Pastor. The SDA church did not have settled pastors who led congregations until 1930. The local congregations were led by elected elders not ordained ministers. So your claim that EGW was a pastor is nonsense because the church did not have them back then either male or female.

EGW was non an ordained minister. She was never referred to as Elder White but always as sister White.

i don't know where you people get your information from? maybe you just make it up as you go along.