Women leadership in church- seeking materials

[Woody]

Quote:

that would end the arguments but the arguments continue

NO. That would not by any means end the argument. Some will go on arguing no matter how much Truth is presented. And that is just what they continue to do.

[Kevin H]

I'm sorry Aussiemike, but while the evidence has been translated to fit Roman Catholisism tradition (female names made masculine, translating the same word from which we get elder different ways depending on if it is by a male or female name) linguists point out that indeed the New Testament did indeed have female elders, and studying the historial and cultural practices there is even more facts for the New Testament having women elders, such as the story of Mary and Martha. Those in the pro-ordination camp who do not bring up these arguments are because they are dealing too much with tradition and either have not heard, or understood what was being discovered by the linguists about the language (and I'm sorry but linguistics are not my gift and I am thus dependent on them) and they are not familiar with what archaeology has taught about the cuture and cultural practices. There are both the Greek, and even Hebrew (but while I've heard from trusted scholars I don't understand it enought to repeat the evidence) and also cultural references that has women in a Elder/Priest position. These are the types of arguments that keep the argument going. Also, people like arguments that jump out clearly in our western Bible translations, especially a proof text, and just like with the Investigative Judgment, much of the arguments is in the linguistric structures, and knowlege of the ancient cultures.

Ordained women is Biblical. The reason why the argument continues is that when you have the Bible on one side, and what Tradition teaches that the Bible is saying on the other side, tradition is too strong to give up, and people trying to come up with arguments to say that the Bible does not mean what it says. Like with the story of Mary and Martha. We now know how the Jews ordained people and how things were done in the culture. It would be like reading that at campmeeting Jesus, the Conference President and the other elders put their hands on Mary and Martha protested that women should not be ordaied and Jesus invited Martha to come and be ordained as well. But people argue "But I don't see the word ordination in this situation" and thus reject the evidence. Another illustration was Mrs. White was given ordination papers every few years. On ONE of these there is a little smuge on the word (either "Ordained" or "Elder") and those who oppose women's ordination point to that smuge saying "See, Mrs. White refused ordination by crossing out the word" and ignore the fact that 1. the smuge is only on one copy. 2. The smuge is an unclear smuge not a clear crossout. 3. When Mrs. White did cross something out she always put her initials by it and she did not initial this smuge. However this one smuge is used by the anti-oridnation group.

Oh, my background is I have a BA in Religion witn a psychology minor from Atlantic Union College (Late 1970s-early 80s) and a Masters in Religion from Andrews University (early 1980s) focusing on the history and culture of the Bible, including studyig at the Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies, which at that time was affiliated with Hebrew University in Jerusalem. I was not hired in the field, so my information is not cutting edge up to date, but I try to learn more as I have time, yet it is more involved than the typical pastor or lay person.

[Woody]

Yep. I call the anti crowd - the smudge religion.

[Aussiemike]

I'm sorry Aussiemike, but while the evidence has been translated to fit Roman Catholisism tradition (female names made masculine, translating the same word from which we get elder different ways depending on if it is by a male or female name)

[miz3]

"This faithful messenger [Paul] brought the cheering news that a wonderful change had taken place among the Corinthian believers. Many had accepted the instruction contained in Paul’s letter and had repented of their sins. Their lives were no longer a reproach to Christianity, but exerted a powerful influence in favor of practical godliness. {AA 324.2}" (Parentheses supplied for contextual purposes.)

Notice Ellen White refers to Paul who was an apostle/pastor/ordained/administrator/minister as a "messenger".

Oh, there is more.

"Realizing the overwhelming magnitude of the work, Paul exclaimed, “Who is sufficient for these things?” Who is able to preach Christ in such a way that His enemies shall have no just cause to despise the messenger or the message that he bears? Paul desired to impress upon believers the solemn responsibility of the gospel ministry. Faithfulness in preaching the word, united with a pure, consistent life, can alone make the efforts of ministers acceptable to God and profitable to souls. Ministers of our day, burdened with a sense of the greatness of the work, may well exclaim with the apostle, “Who is sufficient for these things?” {AA 326.2}"

Notice the underlined parts. Again Ellen White equates the word "messenger" with the words "preach", "minister", and "ministers of our day".

Quite outstanding don't you think.

"Paul’s letter to the Philippians, like the one to the Colossians, was written while he was a prisoner at Rome. The church at Philippi had sent gifts to Paul by the hand of Epaphroditus, whom Paul calls “my brother, and companion in labor, and fellow soldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.” While in Rome, Epaphroditus was sick, “nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him,” Paul wrote, “and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.” Hearing of the sickness of Epaphroditus, the believers at Philippi were filled with anxiety regarding him, and he decided to return to them. “He longed after you all,” Paul wrote, “and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.... I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful. Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation: because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.” {AA 479.1}

Notice once again Ellen White equates "companion in labor", "fellow soldier", "one who ministered" as being the same as a "messenger".

In other words Epaphroditus was a pastor (messenger) in Pillippi.

Oh, again there is more.

[miz3]

"In all ages God’s appointed witnesses have exposed themselves to reproach and persecution for the truth’s sake. Joseph was maligned and persecuted because he preserved his virtue and integrity. David, the chosen messenger of God, was hunted like a beast of prey by his enemies. Daniel was cast into a den of lions because he was true to his allegiance to heaven. Job was deprived of his worldly possessions, and so afflicted in body that he was abhorred by his relatives, and friends; yet he maintained his integrity. Jeremiah could not be deterred from speaking the words that God had given him to speak; and his testimony so enraged the king and princes that he was cast into a loathsome pit. Stephen was stoned because he preached Christ and Him crucified. Paul was imprisoned, beaten with rods, stoned, and finally put to death because he was a faithful messenger for God to the Gentiles. And John was banished to the Isle of Patmos “for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.” {AA 575.1}"

Notice "messenger" refers to Joseph, David, Job, Jeremiah, Stephen, and Paul. All were considered "ministers" even though they were also prophets, kings, farmers, prime ministers(administrators), and apostles.

"Many have no faith in God and have lost confidence in man. But they appreciate acts of sympathy and helpfulness. As they see one with no inducement of earthly praise or compensation coming to their homes, ministering to the sick, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, comforting the sad, and tenderly pointing all to Him of whose love and pity the human worker is but the messenger- as they see this, their hearts are touched. Gratitude springs up, faith is kindled. They see that God cares for them, and as His Word is opened they are prepared to listen.—The Review and Herald, May 9, 1912. {CME 29.2}

There should be companies organized and educated most thoroughly to work as nurses, as evangelists, as ministers, as canvassers, as gospel students, to perfect a character after the divine similitude. To prepare to receive the higher education in the school above is now to be our purpose.... {CME 29.3}"

Notice among other things Ministers = Messengers. The terms are interchangeable in the vocabulary of Ellen White and others of her day.

[Aussiemike]

"This faithful messenger [Paul] brought the cheering news that a wonderful change had taken place among the Corinthian believers. Many had accepted the instruction contained in Paul’s letter and had repented of their sins. Their lives were no longer a reproach to Christianity, but exerted a powerful influence in favor of practical godliness. {AA 324.2}" (Parentheses supplied for contextual purposes.)

Notice Ellen White refers to Paul who was an apostle/pastor/ordained/administrator/minister as a "messenger".

Oh, there is more.

"Realizing the overwhelming magnitude of the work, Paul exclaimed, “Who is sufficient for these things?” Who is able to preach Christ in such a way that His enemies shall have no just cause to despise the messenger or the message that he bears? Paul desired to impress upon believers the solemn responsibility of the gospel ministry. Faithfulness in preaching the word, united with a pure, consistent life, can alone make the efforts of ministers acceptable to God and profitable to souls. Ministers of our day, burdened with a sense of the greatness of the work, may well exclaim with the apostle, “Who is sufficient for these things?” {AA 326.2}"

"Paul’s letter to the Philippians, like the one to the Colossians, was written while he was a prisoner at Rome. The church at Philippi had sent gifts to Paul by the hand of Epaphroditus, whom Paul calls “my brother, and companion in labor, and fellow soldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.” While in Rome, Epaphroditus was sick, “nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him,” Paul wrote, “and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.” Hearing of the sickness of Epaphroditus, the believers at Philippi were filled with anxiety regarding him, and he decided to return to them. “He longed after you all,” Paul wrote, “and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.... I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful. Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation: because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.” {AA 479.1}

Notice once again Ellen White equates "companion in labor", "fellow soldier", "one who ministered" as being the same as a "messenger".

In other words Epaphroditus was a pastor (messenger) in Pillippi.

Oh, again there is more.

[miz3]

"Canvassers must go out into various parts of the country. The importance of this work is fully equal to that of the ministry. The living preacher and the silent messenger are both required for the accomplishment of the great work before us.—The Review and Herald, April 1, 1880. {CM 8.1}

Again Messenger = Minister.

"In order to do our work in straight, simple lines, we must recognize the conditions to which the human family are subjected. God has made provisions for those who live in the different countries of the world. Those who desire to be co-workers with God must consider carefully how they teach health reform in God’s great vineyard. They must move carefully in specifying just what food should and should not be eaten. The human messenger must unite with the divine Helper in presenting the message of mercy to the multitudes God would save.—Letter 37, 1901 {CD 95.3}"

[miz3]

"Why do some of our ministering brethren manifest so little interest in health reform? It is because instruction on temperance in all things is opposed to their practice of self-indulgence. In some places this has been the great stumbling block in the way of our bringing the people to investigate and practice and teach health reform. No man should be set apart as a teacher of the people while his own teaching or example contradicts the testimony God has given His servants to bear in regard to diet, for this will bring confusion. His disregard of health reform unfits him to stand as the Lord’s messenger. {CD 453.4}"

An extremely clear and unambiguous reference to the FACT that the words MESSENGER AND MINISTER were interchangeable in the days of Ellen White.

If one was called a messenger it was assumed they were also a pastor/minister/ordained.

[miz3]

"Calls are coming in from all directions, not only from persons of our faith, but from those who have become interested by reading our publications; they say, Send us a minister to preach to us the truth. But there is a great want of laborers. We have to answer, There is no man to send among you. Many are obliged to be content with the silent preacher until God shall send them the living messenger. Let all our brethren take this to heart, and by personal effort in faith and hope contribute to the Signs of the Times; for in sending matter that is alive, in speaking by the pen words bearing the holy unction, they are preaching to thousands. Long, dry articles are not wanted for this paper. The great lack of men to go from place to place and preach the word may be in a great degree supplied by tracts and papers, and by intelligent correspondence. {CW 111.1}

Again and again. Messenger = Minister/preacher/ordained.

[Aussiemike]

"Canvassers must go out into various parts of the country. The importance of this work is fully equal to that of the ministry. The living preacher and the silent messenger are both required for the accomplishment of the great work before us.—The Review and Herald, April 1, 1880. {CM 8.1}

Again Messenger = Minister.

Here it is plainly said that canvassers are silent messengers. Canvassers were not and still are not ordained Elders yet they are here called messengers. The EGW quote proves you wrong in your assumption that messenger = Ordained Elder/pastor.

Working in the gospel ministry is not the same as being and ordained elder either To say that it is is only an assumption.

[Woody]

Quote:

The church did not have pastors over churches until 1930.

Lets look at the quote below:

Quote:

Ellen White in CEv 16 “God prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors”. Please note that EGW died before 1930.

[miz3]

Ellen White made two statements about her own call to serve the Lord as his messenger. She declared: {DG 252.2}

“At the age of 78 I am still toiling. We are all in the hands of the Lord. I trust in Him; for I know that He will never leave nor forsake those who put their trust in Him. I have committed myself to His keeping. {DG 252.3}

“And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry.”—The Review and Herald, July 26, 1906. {DG 252.4}

“In the city of Portland the Lord ordained me as His messenger, and here my first labors were given to the cause of present truth.”—The Review and Herald, May 18, 1911. {DG 252.5}

Again, Ellen White stated that she was indeed "ordained", she was indeed a "minister", and that both of these are summed up in here use of the word "messenger".

[miz3]

"If one is appointed to a field where he is deprived of many things, and is sent into that field by the decision of the conference, that same power is to bear its share of the burden of making this messenger of God in that field as nearly as possible as comfortable and as pleasantly situated as the members of this power are in their several localities. The Lord will bless all such love expressed toward His workers in hard places. {DG 258.3}"

This may not be limited to "pastors" but it certainly includes "pastors"/"minister"/"administrators" which calls "messengers".

[miz3]

"Those who profess to be servants of the living God must be willing to be servants of all, instead of being exalted above the brethren, and they must possess a kind, courteous spirit. If they err, they should be ready to confess thoroughly. Honesty of intention cannot stand as an excuse for not confessing errors. Confession would not lessen the confidence of the church in the messenger, and he would set a good example; a spirit of confession would be encouraged in the church, and sweet union would be the result. Those who profess to be teachers should be patterns of piety, meekness, and humility, possessing a kind spirit, to win souls to Jesus and the truth of the Bible. A minister of Christ should be pure in conversation and in actions. He should ever bear in mind that he is handling words of inspiration, words of a holy God. He must also bear in mind that the flock is entrusted to his care, and that he is to bear their cases to Jesus, and plead for them as Jesus pleads for us with the Father. I was pointed back to the children of Israel anciently and saw how pure and holy the ministers of the sanctuary had to be, because they were brought by their work into a close connection with God. They that minister must be holy, pure, and without blemish, or God will destroy them. God has not changed. He is just as holy and pure, just as particular, as He ever was. Those who profess to be the ministers of Jesus should be men of experience and deep piety, and then at all times and in all places they can shed a holy influence. {EW 102.2}

Very blatant reference that "ministers"/"ordained"/"administrators" is the same as "messenger".

[miz3]

The minister who has learned of Christ will ever be conscious that he is a messenger of God, commissioned by Him to do a work both for time and eternity. It should not be any part of his object to call attention to himself, his learning, or his ability. But his whole aim should be to bring sinners to repentance, pointing them, both by precept and example, to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world. Self should be hidden in Jesus. Such men will speak as those conscious of possessing power and authority from God, being a mouthpiece for Him. Their discourses will have an earnestness and fervor of persuasion that will lead sinners to see their lost condition, and take refuge in Christ.—The Review and Herald, August 8, 1878. {Ev 134.3}

You should clearly see that I have been correct in what I have said. This is clear as clear can possibly be.

[miz3]

He who gave back to the widow her only son as he was carried to the burial is touched today by the woe of the bereaved mother. He who wept tears of sympathy at the grave of Lazarus and gave back to Martha and Mary their buried brother; who pardoned Mary Magdalene; who remembered His mother when He was hanging in agony upon the cross; who appeared to the weeping women and made them His messengers to spread the first glad tidings of a risen Saviour—He is woman’s best friend today and is ready to aid her in all the relations of life.1 {AH 204.2}

God "ordained" these women. Is the "ordination" of the human person greater then that of God?

Apparently you think that the "ordination by the human" is greater than the "ordination by God".

[miz3]

"With intense interest God is looking on this world. He has noted the capacity of human beings for service. Looking down the ages, He has counted His workers, both men and women, and has prepared the way before them, saying, “I will send My messengers to them, and they shall see great light shining amid the darkness. Won to the service of Christ, they will use their talents to the glory of My name. They will go forth to work for Me with zeal and devotion. Through their efforts the truth will speak to thousands in a most forcible manner, and men spiritually blind will receive sight, and will see My salvation. {Ev 129.3}

Notice that both "men/women" are called be "messengers" that would include according to the language of that day women being pastors/ordained/administrators/ministers.

[Aussiemike]

Notice that both "men/women" are called be "messengers" that would include according to the language of that day women being pastors/ordained/administrators/ministers.

This is nothing more than an assumption on your part which seems to be the backbone of your argument.

Making someone a messenger does not ordain them to be leaders of a congregation

ordained elders may be messengers as well but not all messengers are ordained elders.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Notice that both "men/women" are called be "messengers" that would include according to the language of that day women being pastors/ordained/administrators/ministers.

This is nothing more than an assumption on your part which seems to be the backbone of your argument.

Making someone a messenger does not ordain them to be leaders of a congregation

ordained elders may be messengers as well but not all messengers are ordained elders.

Isn't the natural conclusion that every prophet would then be the administrative/paid leader of the church? Or the list of distinctive administrative gifts was really not distinctive at all? Thus the 7 "messenger" daughters of Philip the Evangelist must have been the pastoral heads their father's congregation?Or, everyone's a chief and no one's an Indian? (That's an American thing,Am) Does that make sense??

[Tom Wetmore]

i will look at those sites. Show me where they are. However what you have said i have heard before and i regard it as total nonsense.

Well, since you already regard it as total nonsense, I see no good reason to carry on with discussing this topic with one whose mind is firmly made up before we even get through the starting gate.

Originally Posted By: Aussiemike

Even those people on the pro ordination group do not say that there were women elders in the NT. If the Greek was quite clear as you claim that would end the arguments but the arguments continue.

Few take the time to actually look at the original Greek. If you read 1 Timothy 4:14 - 5:2 in the Greek, Paul refers to the body of elders (presbyterion) that had laid hands on (ordained) Timothy. Paul then counsels young Timothy in how he should regard and interact with the various members of that body of elders. In 5:1 he mentions the male elders (presbyteros in its masculine form). And in 5:2 Paul refers to the female elders ( also presbyteros but in its feminine form). If you read the KJV, it has translated it very close to the original as "elder women". The Greek word used was not simply denoting old age. (To signify merely the aged, the Greek word, presbytes, would be used, As Paul does in Titus 2.) Presbyteros was the term of respect used to signify maturity and experience that age brings. Culturally the older citizens were greatly respected and their wisdom and counsel was sought after and collectively they made up the body of elders or council for the guidance of the community.

Originally Posted By: Aussiemike

You make the false claim that minister = Pastor...

That is just silly semantics to argue that pastors and ministers are not the same thing. The terms are used interchangeably. And they were in EGW's time and the Greek words translated as such were interchangeable in NT times.

Originally Posted By: Aussiemike

EGW was non an ordained minister. She was never referred to as Elder White but always as sister White.

i don't know where you people get your information from? maybe you just make it up as you go along.

The information comes from the highest authority of the Adventist Church - the General Conference. It was the General Conference that recognized her as being an ordained minster and issued her the credentials to confirm it. (That she wasn't addressed as "Elder White" is irrelevant. That is not even a universally used appellation for male pastors either.)

There is no making up the original ordination certificates issued to EGW kept in the White Estate vault that I have seen with my very own eyes. This not a fact seriously in dispute.

[Kevin H]

The only name that i am aware of the Junias the 'apostle'

Romans 16:7 “Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.”

Then that means that you only have seen a small part of the evidence, and unaware of the vast body of evidence, and making choices from a perspective that does not give you enough material to make a credible choice from. May I encourage you to check out more evidence. As I said the Jim Fleming material is packed full of evidence from not a liberal perspective but from a strong Biblical archaeological historical and cultural perspective.

Also, and again I am more of a historian and not a linquist, but if I understand the evidence correctly, the manuscripts that bring uncertanty to the text date from the 1300s and onward, and, if I am understanding the evidence correctly, that prior to the 1300s it was very clear that Junias was a woman apostle. However, as you look into a broader scope of the evidence you can judge for yourself and you can judge how much of the undertantly of the text dates back to the 1300s and how much predates the 1300s, and how much are you basing your current arguments on events that have occured in manuscrips starting from the 1300s.

[Kevin H]

i have seen this so called smudge. It is a deliberate crossing out. Clearly indicated that she rejected the idea of ordination

Fair enough, I have not seen this (well I think I saw a photo of it in a magizine once) but I have known several who have and some who have seen it say it appears to be a smuge, othes say, like you say that it appears to be a deliberate crossing out, and others who said that they cannot tell if it was a deliberate cross out or not. However those who I have met who argue for it to be a crossing out have admitted that they cannot explain why it is only the one set and not consistant in all the credentials that she was given. Also they admit that while Mrs. White was in the habit of initialing all of her cross outs, why this one does not have her routine initials indicating that she wanted it crossed out, plus she would often write something about why the cross out. We don't find any of that for that mark. They don't even know if she was even responsible for that mark.