Judgement of the Living

[Guest]

If a question and answer program was done among the SDA ministers on 3ABN and the question was asked them, do you think that the judgment of THE LIVING has begun? Direct questions like this are seldom asked, the only ones asked are ones that make the experts look good. Now what would be their answer? I firmly believe that after listening very carefully that if they gave you a answer at all they would be hedging as they talk [because they just don’t know] they would tell you that. NO not yet, but almost!!! Why do they hedge like that, who instructed them to differ with plain bible & SOP evidence?

"The names of all those who have once given themselves to God are written in the book

of life, and their characters are now passing in review before him. Angels of God are weighing moral worth. They are watching the development of character in those now living,

to see if their names can be retained in the book of life. A probation is granted us in which to wash our robes of character and make them white in the blood of the Lamb. Who

is doing this work? Who is separating from himself sin and selfishness? "Ye are dead," says the apostle Paul of the true followers of Christ, "and your life is hid with Christ in God." When we are alive to God, we are dead to self." 7A 960

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See it was the Brindsmead publications that erroneously suggested that when the Ark Of The Covenant would be found, then the Judgment of the Living would begin. Satan has a nearly a entire race of people still waiting for the Messiah to appear, when as Christian we know this is an event that already occurred. Now he has nearly a entire denomination of His professed people looking in the future for something that's has already commenced in 1902. The Judgement of the Living is a process rather than an event with great fanfair.

[Ron Lambert]

Ed, I believe I have read all the Brinsmead publications, and I do not believe he ever said that the finding of the Ark would signify the start of the Judgment of the Living. He always said the enactment of a National Sunday Law in the USA would be the start of the Judgment of the Living. He never at any time taught anything different.

What does what Brinsmead taught have to do with anything, anyway? How is what he taught in the 1960s and 1970s relevant to this topic? Why do you keep bringing it up?

Has the Judgment of the Living begun yet? No. Definitely no. The Judgment of the Living cannot begin until the final test comes to all the world, by which people make their final decision and in effect bring judgment upon themselves which confers upon them the mark of the beast. Consider what Ellen G. White said on this:

"The test upon this question does not come until Sunday observance is enforced by law, and the world is enlightened concerning the obligation of the true Sabbath. Not until the issue is thus plainly set before the people, and they are brought to choose between the commandments of God and the commandments of men, will those who continue in transgression receive the mark of the beast." {4SP 281.2}

[Guest]

Ron I keep bring it up because I see people still influence by it, DIRECTLY & indirectly. You have seen my posts & many of the SOP quote of where she said it [judgement of the living] was soon to begin [1884] then in 1900 "just now as the judgement of the living IS ABOUT to begin". Then in 1902 she just comes out and says that God is rendering verdicts on individual cases. You know all this is posted on the End Time Events section where I provided the documentation that destroys mans pet ideas & warm feelings as they scatter confusion among God's professed people.

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Your SOP quote I fully agree with!!! But you are reading "the judgement of the living" into those words that are just not there.

[Ron Lambert]

Trouble is, Ed, your pet theories are sometimes not Scripturally sound. Too often you depend on a few selected EGW statements from which you infer things not explicitly stated, and you ignore other EGW statements that are inconvenient to your theories. You do not make a decided effort to prove everything by Scripture, and base too much of your preaching on Ellen G. White. Ellen G. White sternly scolded church leaders in her day who did that. You do as much to confuse God's people as anyone else. You are well-intentioned, but you are sometimes wrong. Rather than rail at anyone who disagrees with you, it would be better if you would give some matters serious reconsideration.

[Guest]

Ron the difference is you failed to show where this quote you gave was in anyway connected with the Judgement of the Living, but the one I gave said the idential words "in those now living" with a time ellement attached "NOW", was the word. The word "now" doesn't mean tomorrow or next week.

I am sure I have confused the issue in my clumbness at times, but there is no confusion in the inspired words, we just need to dig deeper.

[DaveM1936]

How can a person who has not yet decided for or against Jesus be judged?

Probation will close only when everyone on earth has made a final choice.

I have always believed that church members will come into judgment when the shaking occurs. No one will be sealed in their forheads until they have permanently decided to be on Jesus' side. The only living that God could fairly judge are those who have come to the place where they have permanently chosen sides and will never change their minds.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

Dave said this. "I have always believed that church members will come into judgment when the shaking occurs."

==============================

And where is your scripture & verse for this to go contrary to scores of quotes? Feelings & thoughts presented in a sermon where more feeling were engaged don't count for nothing. What's wrong in looking at the truth just as it is written? That is the only way I know how.

[Guest]

"We are fast-approaching the close of our probation. Let every soul inquire, How do I stand before God? We know not how soon our names may be taken into the lips of Christ, and our cases be finally decided. What, oh, what will these decisions be? Shall we be counted with the righteous, or shall we be numbered with the wicked? COR 151.

Everyone should see that there must be a judgment at which time the case of every individual will be decided either for life or death. The Bible and SOP present the certainty and the DETAILS of this great event. What wrong with looking at the DETAILS provided instead of what "one feels"?

[Guest]

"At the time appointed for the judgment-the close of the 2300 days, in 1844-began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins. All who have ever taken upon themselves the name of Christ must pass its searching scrutiny. Both the living and the dead are to be judged 'out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."-GC 486.

"As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected."-GC 483.

This thread is about the judgement of the living, it is not the cases of the dead with which we are concerned at the moment. NOW since that involves us, the judgment of the living should definitely grab everyone's attention. If not why not?

"The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years (40 years, because this was written in 1884) this work has been in progress. Soon-none know how soon-it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review." GC 490.

[DaveM1936]

The work of judgment which began in 1844 must continue until the cases of all are decided, both of the living and the dead; hence it will extend to the close of human probation. GC 435

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

Dave is there a reason you failed to place those words above in quote marks??

Are you sure this is the right page for those words??

Are you aware that in the original Great Controversey there was a chapter title in this book titled "The Investigative Judgement"? But people that seem to know more than God, took their pen-knife and discarded the prophets words, then replacing them with the words "Faceing Life's Record".

[DaveM1936]

Here is the entire paragraph:

The work of judgment which began in 1844 must continue until the cases of all are decided, both of the living and the dead; hence it will extend to the close of human probation. That men may be prepared to stand in the judgment, the message commands them to "fear God, and give glory to Him," "and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." The result of an acceptance of these messages is given in the word: "Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." In order to be prepared for the judgment, it is necessary that men should keep the law of God. That law will be the standard of character in the judgment. The apostle Paul declares: "As many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law, . . . in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ." And he says that "the doers of the law shall be justified." Romans 2:12-16. Faith is essential in order to the keeping of the law of God; for "without faith it is impossible to please Him." And "whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Hebrews 11:6; Romans 14:23. {GC 435.2}

As I was searching EGW writings, I found old thoughts and feelling returning. I was raised hearing the necessity of being ready for the judgment. Of obeying the law. No one told me "how". I found the search again depressing me and discouraging me.

Then I thought about my own studies concerning what the judgment is all about.

Matt 25:8-12: The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' "'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' (NIV)

Matt 25:41-46

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,

43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (NIV)

When Jesus invigates our records He is looking to see if we are personally acquainated with Him. "DO I know this person?" He asks. The sheep were surprised that they had done anything for Jesus. They had naturally loved and cared about the needs of others. They were not focused on works. They were focused on Jesus.

However, the goats had been focused on works instead of Jesus. They had a list of all the good deeds they had done. But they had missed the point of the gospel. When one spends his time with his Lord, learning about His love for each individual, he is so filled with graditude and love that he never considers that he has done anything worth mentioning.

After the close of probation, the righteous will look back over their lives trying to find anything they have done for Jesus. They have difficulty finding anything good. But they are still saved. The love they shared, the food, clothing, etc, they shared was no natural that they could not remember doing these things.

I am glad that I have finally learned who my Jesus is.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Ron Lambert]

Zechariah chapter five, as I understand it, depicts the Judgment of the Living coming to professed Seventh-day Adventists, showing what happens when the unfaithful are shaken out and removed, like the angels in Christ's parable remove the tares from the wheat and bind them into bundles to be burned. Zechariah five shows the larger of these bundles of unfaithful Adventists (NOT the SDA church itself) being carried off and given its place among the daughters of Babylon.

Zechariah chapter six, as I understand it, depicts the division that comes among professed SDAs during the Shaking, when the strong team (the wheel team closest to the chariot) is finally freed from the diverting pull of the two teams ahead of it, one of which depicts those unfaithful SDAs who want to worship man (the church and its traditions) and seek to go off toward the prophetic "north" of false religion and join with spiritual Babylon; and the other which depicts those unfaithful SDAs who are worldly, secularistic, and in their hearts have long sought to go toward the prophetic south, and retreat toward spiritual Egypt. Once the division has taken place in the Judgment of the Living/Shaking, then the strong team will be left free to carry the chariot of gospel truth throughout all the world, in fulfillment of the gospel commission of Jesus.

If you study these two chapters in that light, I think you will see how well the interpretations fit, and you will find some very interesting things about our immediate future.

Hosea chapters five and six also speak of the same time. Ellen G. White made a very interesting comment about Hosea 5:6, 7:

Quote:

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"'They shall go with their flocks and with their herds to seek the Lord; but they shall not find him; he hath withdrawn himself from them. They have dealt treacherously against the Lord; for they have begotten strange children; now shall a month devour them with their portions.'

This certainly shows that the Lord changes his position in some way, and presents good reasons to believe that Satan would at some period get up counterfeit conversions."

-- Ellen G. White, R&H, April 14, 1853 par. 4 (this was a one-page issue).

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The application Ellen G. White made of the "strange children" is very interesting, and she clearly saw the prophecies in Hosea 5-6 having relevance to the last days.

Just as the Latter Rain follows the Shaking, so also we read the promises of Hosea 6:1-3 after the tearing and rending of the Shaking:

Quote:

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Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

.

2After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

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3Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the

latter and former rain

unto the earth." (NKJV)

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[Guest]

Dave said this. "As I was searching EGW writings, I found old thoughts and feelling returning. I was raised hearing the necessity of being ready for the judgment. Of obeying the law. No one told me "how". I found the search again depressing me and discouraging me."

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I submit that you were right the first time around, you must have gone somewhere and sat at the feet of a hireling shepherd for a season or two. One of the shepherd job is to stear his flock away from spurious plants growing where they are grazing, not to be planting poisonious weeds to sicken the entire flock.

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It is evident that God did not intend to reveal to any human being in advance the exact time when the Heavenly Tribunal would pass from the cases of the dead to those of the living, but it is certain that He authorized His English speaking prophet to our generation to state that it would be "SOON" (as of 1884). Even she did not know "HOW SOON." But it is equally evident that at a later date she was shown that this solemn phase of the judgment HAD ALREADY BEGUN.

"Some are looking too far off for the coming of the Lord. Time has continued a few years longer than they expected; therefore they think it may continue a few years more, and in this way their minds are being led from present truth, out after the world."-EW 58.

"If such had only known that the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary would close so soon, how differently would they have conducted themselves! how earnestly would they have watched! The Master anticipating all this, gives them timely warning in the command to watch. He distinctly states the suddenness of his coming. He does not measure the time, lest we shall NEGLECT A MOMENTARY PREPARATION, and in our indolence look ahead to the time when we think he will come, and defer the preparation.".:2T 197. (This "coming" refers to the close of probation, not to His coming in the clouds of heaven. See 2T 190.)

[DaveM1936]

Here is the entire paragraph from which you took a couple sentences.

"The Lord has shown me the danger of letting our minds be filled with worldly thoughts and cares. I saw that some minds are led away from present truth and a love of the Holy Bible by reading other exciting books; others are filled with perplexity and care for what they shall eat, drink, and wear. Some are looking too far off for the coming of the Lord. Time has continued a few years longer than they expected; therefore they think it may continue a few years more, and in this way their minds are being led from present truth, out after the world. In these things I saw great danger; for if the mind is filled with other things, present truth is shut out, and there is I saw that the time for Jesus to be in the most holy place was nearly finished and that time can last but a very little longer. What leisure time we have should be spent in searching the Bible, which is to judge us in the last day." {EW 58.1}

"Time can last but a very little longer." Over 150 years has passed since she wrote that. While God made it seem to her that time was short, in reality it was not. Her point was that we must BE READY all the time.

"No place in our foreheads for the seal of the living God." Not only did she write this over 150 years ago, it still has not taken place.

"The time for Jesus to be in the most holy place was nearly finished and that time can last but a very little longer."

It seems to me that Jesus is still in the most holy place. IMO, 150 years is a little longer, than a little longer.

I fail to see how you can use this to say the judgment has passed to the living.

Your friend,

Dave M

[DaveM1936]

You like to take passages out of context and place on them interprations that the context does not warrent. Here is your quote along with the preceeding paragraph.

"When Jesus ceases to plead for man, the cases of all are forever decided. This is the time of reckoning with His servants. To those who have neglected the preparation of purity and holiness, which fits them to be waiting ones to welcome their Lord, the sun sets in gloom and darkness, and rises not again. Probation closes; Christ's intercessions cease in heaven. This time finally comes suddenly upon all, and those who have neglected to purify their souls by obeying the truth are found sleeping. They became weary of waiting and watching; they became indifferent in regard to the coming of their Master. They longed not for His appearing, and thought there was no need of such continued, persevering watching. They had been disappointed in their expectations and might be again. They concluded that there was time enough yet to arouse. They would be sure not to lose the opportunity of securing an earthly treasure. It would be safe to get all of this world they could. And in securing this object, they lost all anxiety and interest in the appearing of the Master. They became indifferent and careless, as though His coming were yet in the distance. But while their interest was buried up in their worldly gains, the work closed in the heavenly sanctuary, and they were unprepared. {2T 191.1}

"If such had only known that the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary would close so soon, how differently would they have conducted themselves, how earnestly would they have watched! The Master, anticipating all this, gives them timely warning in the command to watch. He distinctly states the suddenness of His coming. He does not measure the time, lest we shall neglect a momentary preparation, and in our indolence look ahead to the time when we think He will come, and defer the preparation." 2T 191-192

She is not talking about something that was about to happen in the year she wrote this. 140 years have passed since this was written. She was pointing out that when Jesus left the most holy place, probation was closed. Since no one on earth would know that it had happened, she urged believers to be ready all the time. They were to focus on Jesus and bringing salvation to others, not on self.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

Dave is the time element the problem with you, or, are you waiting & being comfortable in being in limbo on every subject?

1882- "At such a time as this, just as the great work of judging the living IS TO BEGIN, shall we allow unsanctified ambition to take possession of the heart?"-5T 526.

1887- "We are fast approaching the close of our probation. Let every soul inquire, How do I stand before God? WE KNOW NOT HOW SOON OUR NAMES MAY BE TAKEN INTO THE LIPS OF CHRIST, AND OUR CASES BE FINALLY DECIDED. What, oh, what will these decisions be? Shall we be counted with the righteous, or shall we be numbered with the sicked?"-COR 151.

1900- "NOW, when the great work of judging the living is about to begin, shall we allow unsanctified ambition to take possession of the heart, and lead us to neglect the education required to meet the needs in this day of peril?"-6T 139.

1902-"THE TIME HAS COME when everything is to be shaken that can be shaken, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Every case is coming in review before God; HE IS MEASURING THE TEMPLE AND THE WORSHIPERS THERE IN."-7T 219.

======================

Sir are you even a Adventist? The DEAD cannot worship!!!

Only "the worshipers there in", becaues they are LIVING!!!

1903-"THE TIME HAS COME when Jerusalem is being searched as with lighted candles. God is at work investigatin9 character, weighing moral worth, and pronouncing decisions on individual cases."-TM 448.

[Guest]

Almost everytime a cry of protest arises when anyone suggests that probation for the church will close first, which is only another way of saying that the church, the professed people of God will be judged first. But why should this seem strange? We are judged by the light and privileges we have had, and the church has ranked highest in these and in profession. Probation for the Jewish Church in Christs time closed as a church when they hung the spotless Son of God on the cross, yet there was still mercy for the rest of the world, the Gentiles and for individual Jews. (GC 21). In 1844 when the Sunday keeping reformed churches rejected the message from heaven messengers giving the first angels message, they were declared "fallen," and the door of mercy was shut to them. EW 42-43

[DaveM1936]

If you read Paul, Peter, John, they all sound like they expected Jesus to return soon. When EGW received her visions, she was given no timetable. From 1882 through 1902, according to the quotes you present, she thought it would happen very soon. In her early visions, she saw herself along with people she knew all living to see Jesus.

You take her quotes out of context. Then you read into them ideas that are not supported by good exegesis. Please explain how God can judge us living now when we have not permanently decided for or against Jesus.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

Dave said this. “Please explain how God can judge us living now when we have not permanently decided for or against Jesus.”

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Since Christians are admonished to “have a answer always”, let me just step aside and honor your request.

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“God leads His people on, step by step. He brings them up to different points calculated to manifest what is in the heart. Some endure at one point, but fall off at the next. At every advanced point the heart is tested and tried a little closer. If the professed people of God find their hearts opposed to this straight work, it should convince them that they have a work to do to overcome, if they would not be spewed out of the mouth of the Lord. Said the angel: "God will bring His work closer and closer to test and prove every one of His people." Some are willing to receive one point; but when God brings them to another testing point, they shrink from it and stand back, because they find that it strikes directly at some cherished idol. Here they have opportunity to see what is in their hearts that shuts out Jesus. They prize something higher than the truth, and their hearts are not prepared to receive Jesus. Individuals are tested and proved a length of time to see if they will sacrifice their idols and heed the counsel of the True Witness. If any will not be purified through obeying the truth, and overcome their selfishness, their pride, and evil passions, the angels of God have the charge: "They are joined to their idols, let them alone," and they pass on to their work, leaving these with their sinful traits unsubdued, to the control of evil angels. Those who come up to every point, and stand every test, and overcome, be the price what it may, have heeded the counsel of the True Witness, and they will receive the latter rain, and thus be fitted for translation. 1T 187

[Ron Lambert]

If God's professed people are now being judged in the Judgment of the Living, then that means those who fail this judgment should receive the mark of the beast, and those who pass it should receive the special, end-time seal of God. But Ellen G. White explictly stated that the Sunday Law must be enacted before anyone can receive the mark of the beast, or the seal of God:

Quote:

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"If the light of truth has been presented to you, revealing the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, and showing that there is no foundation in the Word of God for Sunday observance, and yet you still cling to the false sabbath, refusing to keep holy the Sabbath which God calls "My holy day," you receive the mark of the beast.

When does this take place?

When you obey the

decree

that commands you to cease from labor on Sunday and worship God, while you know that there is not a word in the Bible showing Sunday to be other than a common working day, you consent to receive the mark of the beast, and refuse the seal of God.--

Review and Herald,

July 13, 1897. (Also reproduced in

Evangelism,

p. 235, para.2}

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[DaveM1936]

I fail to see how the statement you quoted has anything to do with the current discussion.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

Quote:

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I fail to see how the statement you quoted has anything to do with the current discussion.

Your friend,

Dave M

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Dave, did you even read this quote? Of the thousands of SOP quote that I use from time to time, this one says SO MUCH!!! If you cannot see that this quote has EVERYTHING to do with the judgement of the living, then I have no reserve power to offer you. I you are right, you win & I loose??? I don’t think so.

[Ron Lambert]

Ed, I wondered if Dave were speaking to me. I think it helps if we identify who it is we are replying to, just in case another post comes in between.

[Guest]

Quote:

---

If God's professed people are now being judged in the Judgment of the Living, then that means those who fail this judgment should receive the mark of the beast, and those who pass it should receive the special, end-time seal of God. But Ellen G. White explictly stated that the Sunday Law must be enacted before anyone can receive the mark of the beast, or the seal of God:

Quote:

---

"If the light of truth has been presented to you, revealing the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, and showing that there is no foundation in the Word of God for Sunday observance, and yet you still cling to the false sabbath, refusing to keep holy the Sabbath which God calls "My holy day," you receive the mark of the beast.

When does this take place?

When you obey the

decree

that commands you to cease from labor on Sunday and worship God, while you know that there is not a word in the Bible showing Sunday to be other than a common working day, you consent to receive the mark of the beast, and refuse the seal of God.--

Review and Herald,

July 13, 1897. (Also reproduced in

Evangelism,

p. 235, para.2}

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To all the Adventist out there like Ron that know that the Investigative Judgement begin with the dead people in 1844 and yet are still hedging over it NOW has reached the LIVING proffessors, let me ask just one question. Can dead people walk the streets or engage in conversation? Can DEAD people attend to their household duties or be worshiping in the temple??

"Measuring the Church of God.--The grand judgment is taking place, and has been going on for some time. Now the Lord says, Measure the temple and the worshipers thereof. Remember when you are walking the streets about your business, God is measuring you; when you are attending your household duties, when you engage in conversation, God is measuring you. Remember that your words and actions are being daguerreotyped [photographed] in the books of heaven, as the face is reproduced by the artist on the polished plate. . . . {7BC 972.1}

Then in the same book on page 960 the words concerning the judgement "in those now living" is there that should hush all scoffers mouths, but it wont. Old establish error is hard to turn loose of.