Ordination

[Stan]

One former VP of the GC made a statement once that Ordination of Clergy is a tradition that was brought in by the Church of Rome, and there really wasn't carried out in early Christianity.

I do know that we need something to identify this group.

Would you agree with him?

[Stan]

Calling each other brother and sister, is also a tradition brought in from the Church of Rome, not that I am against this, I can not find that title used in the New Testament in every version I looked.

BUT it does feel 'religious' doesn't it?

[doug yowell]

Calling each other brother and sister, is also a tradition brought in from the Church of Rome, not that I am against this, I can not find that title used in the New Testament in every version I looked.

BUT it does feel 'religious' doesn't it?

Rom.16:1 I Cor.7:15 9:5 I Tim. 5:2 James 2:15 Acts 22:13 21:20 I Cor. 1:1 ect...ect...ect...

If God is our Father then what are we?

[Stan]

sure we are, but calling each other that is not a Biblically tradition, it is one of the contributions carried over.

[doug yowell]

sure we are, but calling each other that is not a Biblically tradition, it is one of the contributions carried over.

Did you read the multitude of texts where the NT writers addressed their fellow believers as "brother."Is it possible that the church that later became Roman/Eastern Orthodox, simply carried on the tradition that had been earlier originated by the NT era believers? I don't think it was a mandatory practice but certainly it could have been a popular one long before the church of Rome ascended to the top of the religious food chain.Possible,yes?

[Tom Wetmore]

One former VP of the GC made a statement once that Ordination of Clergy is a tradition that was brought in by the Church of Rome, and there really wasn't carried out in early Christianity.

I do know that we need something to identify this group.

Would you agree with him?

Yes. And I have spoken to someone recently that is preparing to start a research PHd on that very topic.

I would also suggest that much of the basis of the roles of male and female in the church comes from Catholic tradition, including the one that i have addressed a number of times around here - headship.

[doug yowell]

I would also suggest that much of the basis of the roles of male and female in the church come from Catholic tradition, including the one that i have addressed a number of times around here - headship.

Don't you find it odd that millions of Protestant believers (including the hundreds of thousands who've never set foot in a Roman Catholic church or read a catechism) who've read the Bible for themselves have come to believe in the same "tradition"? Do you find EGW's comments, on the high priestly requirement for the husband, a little too Catholic for you? Are her comments on the "curse" of Gen 3 largely a result of uninformed tradition?

[doug yowell]

One former VP of the GC made a statement once that Ordination of Clergy is a tradition that was brought in by the Church of Rome, and there really wasn't carried out in early Christianity.

I do know that we need something to identify this group.

Would you agree with him?

Many,if not most or all of the early church leaders were specifically "ordained", set aside,separated,appointed, or whatever one wants to call it,by a ceremony which laid hands on the recipient. This should be uncontestable given the number of references to it in Acts,Timothy,Titus, and Corinthians,ect... Whether what we've been doing for decades is the same as what they were doing is another question.

[Tom Wetmore]

Doug, I think the point is that the way in which we practice ordination and the meaning and significance we ascribe to it is derived from Catholic tradition.

Yes, there was a practice of laying hands on people, appointing them to a task or mission or role or purpose in in Biblical times. But the tradition from Catholicism is a conferring of authority and power over others or in distinction from others that is distinctly unBiblical. It created a separate class of distinction between clergy and laity that is not found in the NT church. The Catholic tradition was a sense of conferring a clerical aristocracy or divine right of rulership over the church. The clergy were a higher order of spiritual authority that brought a hierarchy and perception of increased levels of infallibility the further up one climbed on the clergy ladder, a papacy.

Despite the official teaching of Adventism that pastors are servant leaders and that the president is simply first among equals, there is an overwhelming trend that once a pastor moves up the ladder of leadership, his words take on a different hue of authoritativeness.

Ellen White quite clear cautioned against placing too much importance on the ritual of ordination. In speaking of the trend after the early NT Church she said:

Quote:

At a later date the rite of ordination by the laying on of hands was greatly abused; unwarrantable importance was attached to the act, as if a power came at once upon those who received such ordination, which immediately qualified them for any and all ministerial work. [AA 162]

That abuse and unwarranted importance clearly developed further over the history of the Catholic Church. And the point is that much of protestantism has kept or brought that back into the Church.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

I would also suggest that much of the basis of the roles of male and female in the church come from Catholic tradition, including the one that i have addressed a number of times around here - headship.

Don't you find it odd that millions of Protestant believers (including the hundreds of thousands who've never set foot in a Roman Catholic church or read a catechism) who've read the Bible for themselves have come to believe in the same "tradition"? Do you find EGW's comments, on the high priestly requirement for the husband, a little too Catholic for you? Are her comments on the "curse" of Gen 3 largely a result of uninformed tradition?

Just as millions of Protestant believers believe (accept) the tradition of Sunday worship, or the immortality of the soul, an everlasting burning hell, etc...

The truth is that what we have in common, what all of Christianity has in common, including Catholics is far greater than our differences. The real distinctive beliefs of Adventism are quite narrow and few. And much more of all of that commonality is rooted in centuries old tradition that has very little or no foundation in Scripture.

And despite what we may want to believe about EGW, she reflects much of that tradition in her writings. While she had special insight, she also employed very ordinary methods of research into the commentaries and resources in her significant library which were built upon that traditional foundation.

(Better for another topic, a similar path of conferring far greater significance and importance on the prophetic gift than is Biblical is the difficulty we have over EGW...)

[Woody]

Good Points Tom. And another topic along these lines is the tradition of disfellowshipping our "brothers and sisters" or even having "membership" period.

[lazarus]

I suppose this may be a bit off topic but.........Mid America Union, Pacific Union, and Colombia Union have all taken steps in recent weeks favorable to WO.

I wonder is one of the legacy's of Ted Wilson's presidency will be the Ordination of women in the NAD. Perhaps this is what true revival and reformation looks like.

[doug yowell]

I wonder is one of the legacy's of Ted Wilson's presidency will be the Ordination of women in the NAD.

Wouldn't that be ironic?

[doug yowell]

Doug, I think the point is that the way in which we practice ordination and the meaning and significance we ascribe to it is derived from Catholic tradition.

Yes, there was a practice of laying hands on people, appointing them to a task or mission or role or purpose in in Biblical times. But the tradition from Catholicism is a conferring of authority and power over others or in distinction from others that is distinctly unBiblical. It created a separate class of distinction between clergy and laity that is not found in the NT church. The Catholic tradition was a sense of conferring a clerical aristocracy or divine right of rulership over the church. The clergy were a higher order of spiritual authority that brought a hierarchy and perception of increased levels of infallibility the further up one climbed on the clergy ladder, a papacy.

Despite the official teaching of Adventism that pastors are servant leaders and that the president is simply first among equals, there is an overwhelming trend that once a pastor moves up the ladder of leadership, his words take on a different hue of authoritativeness.

Ellen White quite clear cautioned against placing too much importance on the ritual of ordination. In speaking of the trend after the early NT Church she said:

Quote:

At a later date the rite of ordination by the laying on of hands was greatly abused; unwarrantable importance was attached to the act, as if a power came at once upon those who received such ordination, which immediately qualified them for any and all ministerial work. [AA 162]

That abuse and unwarranted importance clearly developed further over the history of the Catholic Church. And the point is that much of protestantism has kept or brought that back into the Church.

So wouldn't that argue for not continuing the practice for women? Why would ordination that was indicating something that it was not originally intended to convey be such a coveted thing by those who are pushing for WO? Seems like doing away with the whole ordination policy would be more effective in establishing the "equality" of women thing?? We could alter Gal. 3:28 to include "...there is neither ordained nor unordained."

[phkrause]

Interesting thought Doug.

[Overaged]

So wouldn't that argue for not continuing the practice for women? Why would ordination that was indicating something that it was not originally intended to convey be such a coveted thing by those who are pushing for WO? Seems like doing away with the whole ordination policy would be more effective in establishing the "equality" of women thing?? We could alter Gal. 3:28 to include "...there is neither ordained nor unordained."

[lazarus]

On April 23, the Northern German Union voted 160/47 to "ordain female pastors within the NDV equally to their male colleagues." The Northern German Union Conference is part of the Euro-Africa Division of Seventh-day Adventists.

[Gerr]

I suppose this may be a bit off topic but.........Mid America Union, Pacific Union, and Colombia Union have all taken steps in recent weeks favorable to WO.

I wonder is one of the legacy's of Ted Wilson's presidency will be the Ordination of women in the NAD. Perhaps this is what true revival and reformation looks like.

Now,if "a revival of true godliness is the greatest and most urgent of all our needs," (LDE 189), HOW does the ordination or non-ordination of women affect your spirituality?

[Woody]

If women are ordained - they will bring on " a revival of true godliness" like we've never seen before. Just look what only ordaining men has brought us. We need the women. This will be the key.

[doug yowell]

"If women are ordained - they will bring on a like we've never seen before."

I agree with this part of Woody's statement.

[Overaged]

If women are ordained - they will bring on " a revival of true godliness" like we've never seen before. Just look what only ordaining men has brought us. We need the women. This will be the key.

Don't forget children and young people Woody. According to the Bible, they will be instrumental in the "last days" promoting the gospel...lol, just saying.

[doug yowell]

On April 23, the Northern German Union voted 160/47 to "ordain female pastors within the NDV equally to their male colleagues." The Northern German Union Conference is part of the Euro-Africa Division of Seventh-day Adventists.

I notice that 1 out of 5 voted against this. What would the disciples choice for a Judas replacement have looked like if 20% of the delegates would have been opposed? Any report on how the rest of the Division in Africa is responding? I guess the Spirit doesn't bring all that much unity in today's church. On the other hand, now we will all be looking for that, so far missing,outburst of revival and true Godliness from the N. German Union Conference.

[Gerr]

If women are ordained - they will bring on " a revival of true godliness" like we've never seen before. Just look what only ordaining men has brought us. We need the women. This will be the key.

How did the first pentecost come about?

[Naomi]

If women are ordained - they will bring on " a revival of true godliness" like we've never seen before. Just look what only ordaining men has brought us. We need the women. This will be the key.

Let us not forget that God is still in control

[phkrause]

Let us not forget that God is still in control

I find that many seem to forget that!