Ordination

[Overaged]

Let us not forget that God is still in control

AMEN!

[Woody]

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Let us not forget that God is still in control

Yes praise God - I've noticed that particularly with the most recent votes throughout the world church.

[lazarus]

I notice that 1 out of 5 voted against this. What would the disciples choice for a Judas replacement have looked like if 20% of the delegates would have been opposed?

4/5 voted in favor. Mathias was selected by drawing lots. Do you prefer that method for making decisions in church?

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I guess the Spirit doesn't bring all that much unity in today's church.

The SDA church has lived with less that 100% agreement and still been unified. There is much variance across the SDA landscape but we are still one church. 80% is probably a measure of unity that is not experienced in most Unions.

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On the other hand, now we will all be looking for that, so far missing,outburst of revival and true Godliness from the N. German Union Conference.

Doing the right thing does sometimes bring resentment, anger and scorn.

[doug yowell]

So it is the method that proves the reliable leading of the Holy Spirit? Deciding to obey the Biblical mandate and calling on God to verify HIS decision was uncontroversial and unifying no matter what method was used. When done by a group of united' date=' Holy Spirit led church members, drawing straws is a better method of determining God's will than leaving it up to a group of professional leaders who think they know better than the majority of the other members.

Quote:

I guess the Spirit doesn't bring all that much unity in today's church.

The SDA church has lived with less that 100% agreement and still been unified. There is much variance across the SDA landscape but we are still one church. 80% is probably a measure of unity that is not experienced in most Unions.

If the SDA church is to be the standard of unity for God's people then why exclude the RCC or the Calvary Chapel organization? They probably have more harmony than we do? Maybe I Cor.1:10 should be changed to "...that 80% of you speak the same thing, that there be under 20% divisions among you, and that you be loosely joined together in different minds and judgments."?

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On the other hand, now we will all be looking for that, so far missing,outburst of revival and true Godliness from the N. German Union Conference.

Doing the right thing does sometimes bring resentment, anger and scorn.[/quote'] And doing the wrong thing can sometimes bring great approval from those who sympathize with it. "Woe be unto you when all men speak well of you." Those who push WO are the ones who look down in scorn on those who still believe in the traditional model of leadership.They portray it as oppressive,unfair, and out of touch with God's leading today, and those who still hold to it as women hating,ect... Is that not a statement of resentment,anger, and scorn?

[Overaged]

The SDA church has lived with less that 100% agreement and still been unified. There is much variance across the SDA landscape but we are still one church. 80% is probably a measure of unity that is not experienced in most Unions.

Amen!

[Overaged]

If the SDA church is to be the standard of unity for God's people then why exclude the RCC or the Calvary Chapel organization? They probably have more harmony than we do? Maybe I Cor.1:10 should be changed to "...that 80% of you speak the same thing, that there be under 20% divisions among you, and that you be loosely joined together in different minds and judgments."?

Doug; even tho I am "on your side" here, I have to agree that unity is possible in diversity. It is a mistake to suppose that 100% agreement on doctrinal understanding is needed for "unity."

[doug yowell]

Doug; even tho I am "on your side" here, I have to agree that unity is possible in diversity. It is a mistake to suppose that 100% agreement on doctrinal understanding is needed for "unity."

Why, is that the teaching of Paul here in Corinthians? Don't you agree that on an issue a big as the roles of men and women in ministry that has such a divisive effect on the world church, that unity is critical to the future effectiveness of the church? The church can survive such a change but it will suffer the consequences just as much as Israel when they demanded a king except that this movement begins with the minority dictating to the majority what we will do. At least the Israelites were unified in their desire for a king.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Doug; even tho I am "on your side" here, I have to agree that unity is possible in diversity. It is a mistake to suppose that 100% agreement on doctrinal understanding is needed for "unity."

Why, is that the teaching of Paul here in Corinthians? Don't you agree that on an issue a big as the roles of men and women in ministry that has such a divisive effect on the world church, that unity is critical to the future effectiveness of the church? The church can survive such a change but it will suffer the consequences just as much as Israel when they demanded a king except that this movement begins with the minority dictating to the majority what we will do. At least the Israelites were unified in their desire for a king.

I am just saying that no matter which "side" "wins" that unity is possible; IF we want it.

[lazarus]

Doug is your problem with the decision or the method of arriving act the decision? Or do you feel that the method leads to the wrong decision?

[doug yowell]

I am just saying that no matter which "side" "wins" that unity is possible; IF we want it.

I agree with that. I was referring to the unity of the Holy Spirit rather than just unity in general. There was unity among the warring Jewish factions as to what to do with Jesus. There is unity among God's enemies as to how to respond to the HOly Spirit.Yet, the question remains,

"Can two walk together unless they be agreed?" On issues as deep as the redefinition of church and family roles based on a different method of Bible interpretation I think the possibility is slim at best. Jesus prayer was for His followers to be as unified as He and His Father were. WO has proven to be the antithesis of this. So far the WO proponents have failed to convince the majority of the church that their (WO)interpretation of the Bible is the Holy Spirit inspired one. So far the opponents of WO have failed to convince it's proponents that they are wrong.Like the angels in heaven who had to decide between the arguments of Satan and those of God's Son. Something had to give.

[doug yowell]

Doug is your problem with the decision or the method of arriving act the decision? Or do you feel that the method leads to the wrong decision?

I've already noted that it is not the method that is the issue. Drawing straws/lots is just a different method of casting one's vote. One doesn't notice that the council of Acts 15 cast lots in order to reach their decision.The fact that the church is not all on the same page is the real issue. WO proponents are ok with moving in a different direction without those who oppose them, even if those opponents are the majority. This willingness to split the church hardly represents the moving of the Spirit unless one believes that the present and past policy is immoral and unBiblical. WO advocates are not shy about claiming the moral high ground on this question and that high ground allows for the imposition of right on those unwilling to fall into line.I say that if the Holy Spirit is the mover of this change than the church as a whole should recognize it so that we all move on together. 80% of of those who vote in one conference in one division of one union is hardly a Biblical mandate.Neither is a 51-49% vote representative of God's workings.

[Overaged]

Now I see where you are coming from. I do agree with you. What WO proponents are doing, AND how they are doing it isn't right.

[lazarus]

Southern California Conf. votes in favor of ordination.

Talking with a couple of female colleagues who attended the Women Clergy conference at Andrews it seems like there is growing optimism that we are getting close to a turning point in favor of women's ordination. There's a bit of a buzz amongst the pastors in our conference.

I guess Ted wasn't looking for this when he called for revival and reformation.

[Overaged]

Yes, indeed, there is a "bit of a buzz."

[lazarus]

It will be interesting to see how GC responds to this. Some of my colleagues are worried about a split but I don't think it will come to that.

The remnant can't split. That would be two remnants!

[Overaged]

The remnant can't split. That would be two remnants!

It would be a poor reason to "split" but I agree with you; I don't think it would come to that. Hope you have a great Sabbath!

[lazarus]

Hope you have a great Sabbath!

Same to you.

[Overaged]

,

"Can two walk together unless they be agreed?" On issues as deep as the redefinition of church and family roles based on a different method of Bible interpretation I think the possibility is slim at best. Jesus prayer was for His followers to be as unified as He and His Father were. WO has proven to be the antithesis of this.

[Woody]

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the whole thing has gone sour because of the ones who are doing this.

From what I have seen - it's not going sour at all. In fact it seems to be gaining momentum at the moment.

[Overaged]

Yes; it is Woody; I agree. It is "gaining momentum." But my use of "sour" had nothing to do with that...course, my use of "sour" is not likely even "correct;" but what I meant by use of "sour" was that the subject is, to me, really hard to like anymore.

I mean; I really love to study the Bible, and various doctrines, but when I listen to what the proponents of WO say; and hear from them why they say it; it literally leaves me "sour." I don't get that when I listen to opposers of WO, infact, for the most part, their reasoning makes more sense to me. I just cannot agree to something like WO when it has been made a "rights" issue; because that's not what it is.

[Gordon1]

The truth is that what we have in common, what all of Christianity has in common, including Catholics is far greater than our differences. The real distinctive beliefs of Adventism are quite narrow and few.

The differences between SDA doctrine and mainstream Christianity may seem narrow and few to you Tom, but they are deep & broad.

1) Most blatant perhaps is the belief foisted upon millions (or billions) so far, that their dead loved ones are happy & alive in heaven with God, when in fact they await resurrection from the grave (and execution of a judgment in favor or in denial of eternal life). Apart from opening the door to Spiritualist deceptions (one of man's greatest threats), this teaching obfuscates the Judgment process and the need for repentance and reconciliation with God through Christ for our entire life record.

2) Much of Christianity believe that confession to another human being can absolve one from sin, another grand deception.

3) Few are taught that Jesus is our Great High Priest, "the one mediator between God and men." Do not pass GO, do not collect.

4) Abjuration (renunciation) by mainstream Christianity of the sovereignty (completeness) of God's Ten Commandments written with His own finger in stone. Not only denying the fourth commandment but worshiping, praying & confessing to saints & idols in place of Christ and God the Father.

5) Sin cannot be overcome. Do not seek for righteousness. If it feels good, do it. You only live once.

6) No distinction between clean and unclean foods. Body is not a 'temple for the Holy Spirit'.

Note that most of these affect our eternal destiny, the very teachings we are urged to bring to the world, to save them from the 'Destruction of Jerusalem'.

[Gordon1]

From what I have seen - it's not going sour at all. In fact it seems to be gaining momentum at the moment.

Hi Woody,

Momentum does not mean a movement is sweet. Satan's deception in heaven gained traction till it drew a third of the holy angels.

Many earthly movements have momentum by God's permission, but WITHOUT His approval, that they may manifest completely and demonstrate their rebellion.

[Tom Wetmore]

Gordon, The Truth we hold in common with all of Christianity - Christ - is far greater, deeper and and broader, than the sum of all possible differences.

When I said "the real distinctive beliefs of Adventism" I had in mind that which was different or distinctly ours alone. None of the six beliefs you listed put us in a class by ourselves.

But to the real point of the topic at hand, the current prevailing practice of ordination we derive from and still hold in common with its source - the Roman Catholic Church. Most of Christianity also views the distinction of clergy over laity quite similarly. And even for many of those denominations that have opened the door to women clergy, it is still very much a male dominated world.

The vital beliefs of "all are one in Christ", the "priesthood of ALL believers", and "Christ and Christ alone as the head of the church", have largely been relegated to nice NT platitudes not genuinely found and lived out in actual practice in Christianity at large. If Adventism were to truly reclaim its real historic roots it distinctly would.

[Gordon1]

Gordon, The Truth we hold in common with all of Christianity - Christ - is far greater, deeper and and broader, than the sum of all possible differences.

Tom, I do not believe all of Christianity - not a majority, not even a small minority, hold Christ in common. Most, even many Adventists deny the very teachings He came to instill, at the risk of His own eternal loss.

For this reason EGW sees only a small band at the end, on a narrow mountain path.

While many profess Christ, they reject him in practice. This is not holding any Truth. Even a Mafia Don genuflects at the altar. Lip service only. Some knowingly, others out of ignorance. We (1st World SDAs with full access to resources) have no excuse for ignorance, or inaction to make Christ known.

[doug yowell]

I have to admit, that after looking at everything that both sides have to say about WO; I am convinced that proponents of WO, for the most part, have totally fallen in line with the following:

I think you make a very astute observation. Perhaps the WO proponents have done us an important favor in causing us to reevaluate the meaning, purpose,and importance of ordination.