Critique of Walter Veith's Views On Islam

[Lysimachus]

Patrick,

What's your opinion on Roosenberg on Islam?

[Patrick Lawrence]

Hmm not sure off hand I will have to look at it. But it is interesting any current threat we tend to try to work into prophecy even if it is not there. Like say Nazies and Fascists in WW2. Or the Soviets. Or if you go back farther the Mongals when they were threatening europe. Not saying this is for sure wrong or correct. But just made me thing about that

[jasd]

QR frame:

“If White had secured a terminal degree (Ph.D., M.F.A., et al.), he would have learned that only PRIMARY SOURCES are admissible as documentation and evidence. Even law students know "double hearsay" is inadmissible.”

Riplinger’s “New Age Bible Versions documents from primary sources.” Whereas, James R. White decidedly utilized "double hearsay" sources – such as the ‘mystics’ and ‘spiritualists’ Wescott and Hort (who are cited in the Occult Illustrated Dictionary)..

Aside from the fact that the Modern Translations are copyrighted, one might want to dwell upon this:

“It is believed that the Minority Texts were butchered by Egyptian Gnosticsm with many changes, which are mostly deletions. The Gnostics were a group that did not believe: 1) the virgin birth, 2) that Jesus was the Son of God, 3) that Jesus was resurrected to Heaven, 4) that Jesus was the Creator, or 5) that Jesus made atonement for our sins. There are many alterations in the Minority Texts, often a single manuscript being amended by several different scribes over a period of many years. The Minority Texts omit approximately 200 verses from the Scriptures. This is equivalent to 1st and 2nd Peter. The Minority Texts contradict themselves in hundreds of places. The Minority Texts are weak doctrinally and often dangerously incorrect. Yet, startling as it may sound, virtually every modern English Bible relies on the Minority Text as its underlying New Testament text in preference to Textus Receptus!”

[jasd]

And this:

“The two main manuscripts of the Minority Texts are Vaticanus (or , and the Sinaiticus (Aleph). Vaticanus was produced in the 4th century. It was found over a thousand years later in 1481 in the Vatican library in Rome, where it is currently held. This manuscript omits many portions of Scripture vital to Christian doctrine. Vaticanus omits Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 46:28; Psalms 106 through 138; Matthew 16:2,3; Romans 16:24; the Pauline Pastoral Epistles; Revelation; and everything in Hebrews after 9:14. It is interesting that a manuscript possessed by the Roman Catholic church omits the portion of the book of Hebrews which exposes the 'mass' as totally useless (Hebrews 10:10-12). It also omits portions of the Scripture telling of the creation (Genesis), the prophetic details of the crucifixion (Psalm 22), and, of course, the portion which prophesies of the destruction of Babylon (Rome), the great whore of Revelation chapter 17. Vaticanus, though intact physically, is found to be in poor literary quality. Vaticanus has numerous places where the scribe has written the same word or phrase twice in succession. From one end to the other, the whole manuscript has been traveled over by the pen of some scribe of about the tenth century. If Vaticanus was considered a trustworthy text originally, the mass of corrections and scribal changes obviously render its testimony highly suspicious and questionable.

The Sinaiticus is a manuscript that was found in 1844 in a trash pile in St.Catherine's Monastery near Mt. Sinai, by a man named Mr Tischendorf. It contains nearly all of the New Testament plus it adds the 'Shepherd of Hermes' and the 'Epistle of Barnabas' to the New Testament.

In the 1800's two men, Westcott and Hort made another Greek New Testament text from the minority text which included Vaticanus and the Sinaiticus. Since the time of Westcott and Hort another revision was created called the Nestle/Aland. Nearly all of the new translations of the Bible are based upon one of these two Greek New Testaments and not the Textus Receptus. That means that the newer versions are based on 5% of the manuscripts in stark contrast to 90% on the other side. This is where the differences really come from. We can see that from very early on there has been a struggle over this issue of the correct scriptures, we now hold in our hands the offspring of these arguments. Many of the deletions in the modern versions revolve around exactly what the Gnostics didn't believe in: the virgin birth, that Jesus was the Son of God and was resurrected to Heaven, that Jesus was the Creator, or that Jesus made atonement for our sins. [underlined.jasd]

In the world today, there only really exists two classes of Bibles: those based upon the Textus Receptus and those based upon the Wescott/Hort, Nestle/Aland Greek New Testaments. Whether a person has an New International Version, New American Standard Version, or Revised Standard Version he is reading from the Wescott/Hort, Nestle/Aland Greek New Testaments that are only supported by 5% of the existing manuscripts.”

[jasd]

And this:

(“The Wescott/Hort, and Nestle/Aland are primarily based upon Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. These are in contradiction one with the other in over 3,000 places in the Gospels alone! The Wescott/Hort - Nestle/Aland Greek Text differs from the Textus Receptus in over 5,600 places, involving almost 10,000 Greek words - there's no way that a Bible translated from the Wescott/Hort - Nestle/Aland could be anything equal to the King James Bible which is based on the Textus Receptus.”)

Of course, everyone must ultimately decide matters him or herself.

[Patrick Lawrence]

What does all that have to do with Walter Veiths view of Islam?

[jasd]

>>What does all that have to do with Walter Veiths view of Islam?<<

Though you’ve addressed the post to yourself, its wording indicates that it addressed my posts. My response follows...:

You’re kidding, right?—I mean, I assumed that you monitored your own thread.

You’ve had seven posts that dealt with Biblical translations, namely the KJV with mention of at least another by name. Within those seven posts was mention of James R. White with particular pejorative re Gail Riplinger.

Those were SEVEN posts without demur from you. SEVEN out of twenty-seven posts to the thread before I contributed.

I simply responded to those posts – providing what proves to be fair and pertinent.

Veith?—three simultaneous threads on the guy? Ummm, okay...

but what's with the obsession? You wanna know 'bout Islam, you wanna know my views. Aks moi.

So, is there a problem with balance?

[Patrick Lawrence]

Yes it was for you sorry

Ya I know and I was hopping we could get back to subject at hand. It would be better to start a thread on the Bible versions if you want to get indepth and then link to it. And sorry it is my fault I should have mentioned it to your guys sooner. You just happened to have the most and longest of subject ones. And the last posts also.

Yes I thought about making it one thread but it is 3 seperate but related issues. 1. About Islame and addressed point by point following his ivdeo. 2. His conpiracy stuff in general and trends on how he works. Still important but does not fit into the Islam thread. And would just clutter it. 3. A clear positive thread on the things we can say he does good on to be fair. The other two be topic and subject come off as negative. But I really want to be fair and give him credit where it is due. And at some point in the future I would have no problem doing a Veith health, creation or theology thread if warranted. But I have no plans to at the moment.

And yes if you have something to add to topic of his views on Islam please do. For example if I am wrong on one of my points. If it is more general about Islam there is a thread just about islam I started we can use. Any way always like to here what people think and why.

Nope as I said I should have suggest another thread before you. But you were the last one to post and posted like 3 longish messages so it got my attention the most.

[jasd]

>>Ya I know and I was hopping we could get back to subject at hand.<<

Done.

>>You just happened to have the most and longest of subject ones. And the last posts also.<<

Yeah, it kinda works out that way – that the last posts are the ones, which draw the eye and remain in the memory. Has to do with ...attention span, I think.

>>Yes I thought about making it one thread but it is 3 seperate but related issues.<<

No biggie, was just bustin’ yor chops. ;-)

>>And at some point in the future I would have no problem doing a Veith health, creation or theology thread if warranted. But I have no plans to at the moment.<<

Many of the list have ready access only to ‘Dial-up’ and linking to streaming video is not happening. Mebbe, you might drag some of Veith’s more salient points online via transcript – that we underprivileged may contribute our boundless insights... to the discussion. :-(

>>And yes if you have something to add to topic of his views on Islam please do.<<

Re:

Quote:

Quote:jasd

You wanna know ‘bout Islam, you wanna know my views. Aks moi.

Just indulging in a bit of ‘end of the red dirt road’ jabberwocky...

>>Any way always like to here what people think and why.<<

Though I disassociate the people from the belief – you wouldn’t want to hear my thoughts nor their whys. They’re absolute wallbangers.

>>But you were the last one to post and posted like 3 longish messages so it got my attention the most.<<

Longish, as compared to the OP? You jest, yes? ;-)

In fact, I scrubbed my posts so severely that they were submitted only to encourage the genuine ‘truth-seeker’ to study the matter out for him or herself.

Re: conspiracies – by way of a comment upon the Rothschilds::

[the Rothschilds] had: "conquered the World more thoroughly, more cunningly, and much more lastingly than all the Caesars before..." --Frederic Morton

So, having “conquered the World” – to what extent might one suppose the Rothschilds (not to mention their ‘fellow travelers’) would energetically push, pull, and prod events – as to not have them spin off to their detriment? That ‘push, pull, and prod’ would define

CONSPIRACY.

It is only the Pollyannaish and believers in faeries (or the plain ignorant?) – who do not believe in conspiracies; however, that said, others tend to over-stir the pudding.

[Patrick Lawrence]

Sorry you do not have faster internet. You know you can get a satalite connection any place in the US now I think.

A little bit of hyperbole by Frederic Morton does not a conspiracy make. Although it is true Jewish bankers had/have some power. But then again so do many many many other people with a vast range of interests and desires.

It is also interesting to note Niall Ferguson take from his two volumn 1100 page or so exaustive history of the family.

"As we have seen, however, wars tended to hit the price of existing bonds by increasing the risk that a debtor state would fail to meet its interest payments in the event of defeat and losses of territory. By the middle of the 19th century, the Rothschilds had evolved from traders into fund managers, carefully tending to their own vast portfolio of government bonds. Now having made their money, they stood to lose more than they gained from conflict. The Rothschilds had decided the outcome of the Napoleonic Wars by putting their financial weight behind Britain. Now they would sit on the sidelines."

His video series The Ascent of Money: A Financial History of the World is also very good if you get a chance to watch it.

[jasd]

>>Sorry you do not have faster internet.<<

Yeah, tried to subscribe to DSL through my phone company; however, ended up with six months of no dial tone. Will probably just purchase a laptop and pirate ‘wireless’.

>>You know you can get a satalite connection any place in the US now I think.<<

I live out at the end of the red dirt road, as it were – and checked into satellite – I’d practically have to be a global .org to afford it.

>>A little bit of hyperbole by Frederic Morton does not a conspiracy make.<<

Yes, a bit of hyperbole – however, it doesn’t nearly approach the facts – as Morton is but a small presager of a darkness eroding the day.

Wherever two or more intermingle their breath – they conspire. Conspiracies have been and are so prevalent as to necessitate our brains erect filters against them – otherwise the noise-to-signal ratio would overwhelm...

>>Although it is true Jewish bankers had/have some power.<<

Whooo, THAT is an understatement!

>>But then again so do many many many other people with a vast range of interests and desires.<<

True, but the TurboShark in the waters is the combined aforementioned. Goes to cause and effect. We speak of Western Civilization: for near millennia (until quite recently, matter of factly speaking... though mitigated by the Reformation, the practice of usury was officially lifted by the church in AD 1918) the RCC excommunicated for the practice of usury; whereas, the Jewish religion allowed usury against all but their own, which is not a negligible thing – having gone into slavery (sixth century BC) as a primarily herdspeople – and thence, learned the ‘Secrets of the Temple’, so to speak.

That would be likened to: ‘stealing a march’.

In AD 1290 the King of England complained that one man, a usurer, owned more in assets than himself, the King – and further, had economically enslaved the indigenous peoples.

[jasd]

>>It is also interesting to note Niall Ferguson take from his two volumn 1100 page or so exaustive history of the family.

"As we have seen, however, wars tended to hit the price of existing bonds by increasing the risk that a debtor state would fail to meet its interest payments in the event of defeat and losses of territory. By the middle of the 19th century, the Rothschilds had evolved from traders into fund managers, carefully tending to their own vast portfolio of government bonds. Now having made their money, they stood to lose more than they gained from conflict. The Rothschilds had decided the outcome of the Napoleonic Wars by putting their financial weight behind Britain. Now they would sit on the sidelines."<<

Therefore, they planned for contingencies, such as: It was only within the last several decades that letters surfaced in Amsterdam which confirmed an agreement between Cromwell and the bankers of Amsterdam that – in exchange for monies lent – Cromwell would decimate the Royal line of Charles, as to guarantee that no ‘pretenders’ to the throne would later emerge – renouncing monies lent. [/extemporizing]

Re the Rothchilds: in fact, the Rothschilds funded all sides until the outcome of the wars was in view – at which time they more covertly and industriously swung to England’s interests. Having so stated, I note: their interests, prevent[ed] them from administering, protecting, and increasing their wealth by “sitting on the sidelines”.

(The Rothchilds own[ed] 90-95% of total USA railroadage which once included every alternating section of land on both sides of the tracks they laid. It is probable that they were since required to divest certain of those sections of land. Were they reimbursed?—likely...)

Monies aside, I found it interesting that almost all the progeny of the Rothchilds married first cousins. That certainly would keep things ‘all in the family’, yes? TurboShark syndrome?

>>His video series The Ascent of Money: A Financial History of the World is also very good if you get a chance to watch it. <<

I would like to see if they make mention that it was Babylon that invented and laid the groundwork for our present system of banking. It was this, for which Babylon is particularly noted – not its religious practices which were Persian, in fact and by origin.

Indeed, ...would like. However, presently, I’m more interested in the subject “When the money fails”.

[Patrick Lawrence]

I think you overstate things. Yes Jews were bankers in the middle ages. But they were also encouraged to be as bankers are needed. Plus they were kept out of many other professions. So it was natural for them to more into the profession. They were also pushed into other professions like tax collecting. But what is more interesting is this. The midieval world was a terrible place Jews. Anti-semetism was endemic in midieval culture. Jews far from having all the power were at the mercy of those that did. Even the most wealthy Jewish banker could be killed and robbed for their possessions. And one of the truly evil things is that Jews were forced into these money related professions. Then they were demonized as greedy and corrupt for being in them. And in this environment is where the conspiracy theories were born.

If you look at the "power" of the Jews in the middle ages you will see it is as I said above. They were at the mercy of the kings. From wikipedia since its just a list of basic dates and places...."The practice of expelling Jews, the confiscation of their property and further ransom for their return was utilized to enrich the French crown during the 13th and 14th centuries. The most notable such expulsions were from Paris by Philip Augustus in 1182, from the whole of France by Louis IX in 1254, by Charles IV in 1306, by Charles V in 1322 and by Charles VI in 1394.

To finance his war against Wales in 1276, Edward I of England taxed Jewish moneylenders. When the moneylenders could no longer pay the tax, they were accused of disloyalty. Already restricted to a limited number of occupations, Edward abolished their "privilege" to lend money, restricted their movements and activities and forced Jews to wear a yellow patch. The heads of Jewish households were then arrested with over 300 being taken to the Tower of London and executed. Others were killed in their homes. All Jews were banished from the country in 1290,[67] where it was possible that hundreds were killed or drowned while trying to leave the country.[68] All the money and property of these dispossessed Jews was confiscated. No Jews were known to be in England thereafter until 1655, when Oliver Cromwell reversed the policy."

And here are examples of some of the evil conspiracy theories of the middle ages.....

- Jews use the blood of Christian and Muslim children to make their Passover matzo. This terrible lie is still being repeated today in the Muslim world and other places.

- That Jews cause plagus by poisoning food, wells and streams. Because of this they were rounded up and tortured and killed all across europe. This evil conpiracy theory led to the entire eradication of many Jewish communities across europe in the mid 14th century.

And there are many more stories. And Jews were killed in mass and driven out of entire countries by these false tales.

These false ideas became part of Christian culture. And were very prevelant still in the 19th century in the Christian world. This includes both the US and Europe. And it is out of this anti-semetic 19th culture the modern banker conspiracy theories come from. This seems to be when they started to expand and have a more world wide context to the theories.

Now these racist anti-semetic worlds views were very very popular at the turn of the last century. Henry Ford reprinted the fraudulent The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion for example. The The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion were also used by the Nazi's and studied as fact. And by other anti-semetic/racists around the world.

And even more interesting is this The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion is one of the key things that get us to the modern world wide conspiracy theories. The main difference today is the theories have tried and play down the racist origins. Except for when it is used by the clearly racist groups around the world. But the origins are all rooted in these old anti-semetic racist ideas. They have just been expanded on and a more politicaly correct face added to them.

So any talk about modern conspiracy theories has to include their racist, anti-semetic and hate filled origins.

[jasd]

>>I think you overstate things.<<

Perhaps, and then, perhaps you attempt to mitigate things.

>>Yes Jews were bankers in the middle ages.<<

And, as I alluded, their commercial interests seem to have had its impetus during the Babylonian Captivity, through the Persian Empire, and were thoroughly entrenched at the time of Alexander’s invasion of the Empire. (I once read that Alexander’s principal historian who accompanied him throughout his campaigns wrote that Alexander feared the Jews of Babylon. Note the “I once read...” as extemporized)

Listen, is all of this (contents of your post) because I characterized the Rothchild family as “TurboShark”?

I hadn’t intended making a case for or against AntiSemitism per se, but instead – an argument that Major Conspiracies exist. Probably, the most recognizable being that of the Rothchilds... and well, yes, Zionism.

Do you want me to respond to the bulk of your post?

Should you, I will.

In the meantime, I’ll just address the last sentence of your post.

>>So any talk about modern conspiracy theories has to include their racist, anti-semetic and hate filled origins.<<

Whoa there, Patrick. Hyperbole? Are Palestinians Semites? Of course, they are. Who was it that drove them from their villages and murdered the elderly, throwing them into wells to pollute the waters?—prior to Partition.. Mebbe, the Stern Gang?—the Irgun Gang?—the Lehi Gang?—the Haganah Gang?—etc, eh?

One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter?

The thinking was that when the issue of a Jewish homeland in Palestine came before the General Assembly of the UN – the more land held, the better the claims...

Now, that’s troubling – especially since these same [Eastern] Europeans (for the large part) were loudly travailing, “Never again!—this time we’ll bring down the Halls of Civilization with us.”

You cannot do that without money and POWER! And to even speak that is to admit to conspiracy...

OY! Say what!? --Pogo

[Patrick Lawrence]

One note real fast part of what I post is directly at you and part for the wider audience. These threads already do rank very high on the searchs for Walter Veith and conspiracy theories. So I try to keep in mind responding to you and the readers in the future. Any way I think that will help some when looking at how I respond

Quote:

Perhaps, and then, perhaps you attempt to mitigate things.

No I just like to deal in facts. And I find that conspiracy theories can never stick to facts. They like to add made up ones. And they also like to make connections with no proof. Walter Veith is a prime example of this.

Quote:

And, as I alluded, their commercial interests seem to have had its impetus during the Babylonian Captivity, through the Persian Empire, and were thoroughly entrenched at the time of Alexander’s invasion of the Empire. (I once read that Alexander’s principal historian who accompanied him throughout his campaigns wrote that Alexander feared the Jews of Babylon. Note the “I once read...” as extemporized)

Best I can tell you base this on conspiracy theory books. They base the idea on the Egibi Contracts from Mesopotamia. They say that Egibi is a form of Jacob. This seems have been an error started in the anti-semetic conspiracy world of the late 19th century when were found. As best I can tell there is no good evidence this name is a form of Jacob. And the idea has long been disproven. But it is one of those old falsehood pulled up as fact in modern banking conspiracy theory books. Here is some info on it. http://books.google.com/books?id=p_wj6_6...%20&f=false And source sighted - http://soas.academia.edu/CorneliaWunsch/Papers/753050/Neo-Babylonian_Entrepreneurs

Quote:

Listen, is all of this (contents of your post) because I characterized the Rothchild family as “TurboShark”?

No it is because I know the history of conspiracy theories. And as mentioned I am also talking to a wider audience.

Quote:

Do you want me to respond to the bulk of your post?

You can if you like.

Quote:

Whoa there, Patrick. Hyperbole? Are Palestinians Semites? Of course, they are. Who was it that drove them from their villages and murdered the elderly, throwing them into wells to pollute the waters?—prior to Partition.. Mebbe, the Stern Gang?—the Irgun Gang?—the Lehi Gang?—the Haganah Gang?—etc, eh?

You know what I am refering two. A Jew doing something wrong does not change the history of what "Christians" have done to Jews. Nor does it change the facts that conspiracy theories have come out of this hatred for Jews. That is why it has to be discussed but the history of the two is connected.

Quote:

The thinking was that when the issue of a Jewish homeland in Palestine came before the General Assembly of the UN – the more land held, the better the claims...

Now, that’s troubling – especially since these same [Eastern] Europeans (for the large part) were loudly travailing, “Never again!—this time we’ll bring down the Halls of Civilization with us.”

You cannot do that without money and POWER! And to even speak that is to admit to conspiracy...

Yes I well understand the history of modern Israel. And also the good and bad done on each side. But I see no grand conspiracy. By the way are you paraphrasing something with the quote?

[Patrick Lawrence]

Just to add a little bit to the anti Jewish info. If you look at most of the main influences behind modern conspiracy theories you can see this connection just as clearly. Here are a couple of examples.

Eustace Mullins who wrote The Secrets of The Federal Reserve. Mr Mullins was one of the main driving forces behind the modern conspiracy theory movement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eustace_Mullins And notice he was also famed for his antisemitism. Read the section on his beliefs on the evil Jewish conspiracy.

Mullins seems to have been brought into these ideas by Ezra Pound. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Pound . Pond also was very anti Jewish. He wrote an article for example titled "The Jews, Disease Incarnate.". Also "He wrote to James Laughlin that Roosevelt represented Jewry, and signed the letter "Heil Hitler." He started writing for Action, a newspaper owned by the British fascist, Sir Oswald Mosley, arguing that the Third Reich was the "natural civilizer of Russia." After war broke out in September 1939, he began a furious letter-writing campaign to the politicians he had petitioned six months earlier, arguing that the war was the result of an international banking conspiracy, and that the United States should keep out of it.[69]"

Another main driving force behind the theories was Nesta Helen Webster. And guess what she was also an anti-Semite. And no only that she was an occultist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nesta_Webster She was one of the people that helped right the charming book The Jewish Peril. And that book is based in many ways on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion I mentioned.

As I said you can not talk about conpiracy theories without talking about the anti Jewish feelings behind them.

[Lysimachus]

Pretty soon, every author is a conspiracy theorist, and none can be trusted. They're all biased. I think you're too analytical sometimes.

[Patrick Lawrence]

Lysimachus if I have a fact wrong I would be happy for you to show me. But clearly I never suggested all authors were conspiracy theory authors. But the ones that are mainly known for conpiracy writings are by definition conspiracy theory writers.

[jasd]

I’m responding to your listings, as you seem to hold the enumerated in the manner one would a raison d’être.

Too many are bound in the issue, pro and con, of anti-Semitism en toto from a knee-jerk conditioning rather than from a study of the matter. That goes to both sides of the issue, no matter who practices it – Jew and Gentile alike.

I have the utmost respect for the Jew and Gentile of conscience, and believe that the condition of mankind is better because of the them.

So saying, I'll be your foil...

>>But they were also encouraged to be as bankers are needed.<<

Indeed, as needed and for opportunity. Even popes who officially upheld and enforced laws against usury – condoned and supported Jews who practiced usury – for reason, we were bequeathed Luther’s ‘Reformation’.

Good?—or bad?

>>Plus they were kept out of many other professions. So it was natural for them to more into the profession.<<

Yes, stipulated. In the movie Pawnbroker, Steiger explains the fact, “By necessity, we survived by buying a piece of cloth for a penny, cutting it in two pieces and selling each for a penny. And so on... “

However, there were many countries and many times when the Jews were, in fact, among the privileged (Moorish Europe for instance). And times when they either suffered separately or together with the general populace, example: the 100 years war, etc.

It has been so with all peoples of the world. It is not a singularity peculiar to the Jews. However, it is most common amongst peoples with neither govt nor land of their own.

One would think that that fact would be uppermost on the consciences of those who evicted others from their lands.

>>They were also pushed into other professions like tax collecting. But what is more interesting is this. The midieval world was a terrible place Jews.<<

Indeed, as well for everyone – for reason the Renaissance was welcomed. The Middle Ages was a time of intense suffering for the general populace, brought about by extreme poverty, disease, wars, natural calamities, etc. Such times do not bode well for the 'stranger within the gates'.

>>Anti-semetism was endemic in midieval culture.<<

Yes, mostly true, but did not the European Jew contribute in some way, however small, to the antipathy encountered?—let’s say, by denigrating (however cryptic the terminology) the mother of Jesus Christ as a whoops! who cast a ba...rd child of a Roman soldier?—or by designating the goyim cattle? Etc.

One simply cannot put such stuff in one’s holiest book subscribing to it – and not give account to even the lowest/meanest person in the land. (yes, I’ve read the relevant passages in the Soncino)

>>Jews far from having all the power were at the mercy of those that did.<<

That is true everywhere – for everyone; however, Jews were in positions of privilege, as well with the downtrodden – whenever and wherever they were throughout history.

That is true of all peoples.

Even the First century Cicero complained of fear of the Jews in Rome, as did Seneca who wrote,“...have gained such strength that they have now been received in all lands. The conquered have given laws to the conquerors.” [/ed.jasd]

This was Europe, First century AD forward...

[jasd]

>>Even the most wealthy Jewish banker could be killed and robbed for their possessions.<<

As even with Kings and Presidents: Bush Sr had the highest approval rating ever recorded while in office. Rabin came to town asking for monies. Bush Sr asked for a quid pro quo – “You’ll get your monies; however, I want you to sit down with the Palestinians to talk Peace.” Oh, the shame! Rabin acceded – whereupon the Jewish Community in America – Bunds, Soviets, Cells – organized charter bus convoys from all assorted towns, villlages, cities, and landscapes throughout America to ‘go to the Capitol’ and give the upstart Bush Sr what for. The convoys converged upon the Capitol. Bush Sr was MSMed (much as Palin would later be MSMed) – and became for all intents and purposes – a lame duck facing the end of his one-term as POTUS.

I watched the convoys...

The Jews are the only racial group who is organized for political domination of America. Why?

Conspiracy?—or Political Action? Define your terms.

>>And one of the truly evil things is that Jews were forced into these money related professions.<<

Oh!—how dreadful and oh! how they must have complained – for who in their right mind would want to be a 'forced participant' in a monopoly? Perhaps, it is that experience which provided the notion of greater monopolies – the monopoly of State Communism. Yes, I know the boast.

>>Then they were demonized as greedy and corrupt for being in them.<<

Kinda like the left demonizes the wealthy in America? That said, there is nothing good that can be said of envy, the manipulation of another man’s person, or the confiscation of his goods.

>>And in this environment is where the conspiracy theories were born.<<

Oh, beg pardon. Conspiracy theories were born when and where the smoke of sufficient suspicions and facts first trailed their wisps. This said, it applies to all peoples – from families to States.

>>Much of what you say here is true; however, take note that – you are overstating things...<<

Beg pardon, I state not even the half of it.

>>If you look at the "power" of the Jews in the middle ages you will see it is as I said above. They were at the mercy of the kings.<<

As was everyone who served at the wishes of the King. Sez so in the Bible. That said, some of the Medieval Jews loaned at usury even to Popes – who, in turn, crowned and deposed – Kings.

>>From wikipedia since its just a list of basic dates and places...."The practice of expelling Jews, the confiscation of their property and further ransom for their return was utilized to enrich the French crown during the 13th and 14th centuries. The most notable such expulsions were from Paris by Philip Augustus in 1182, from the whole of France by Louis IX in 1254, by Charles IV in 1306, by Charles V in 1322 and by Charles VI in 1394.<<

They, in turn, accepted the expelled Jews from England; however, to be fair, they in turn expelled them into the Germanic lands, which State, in turn shuttled them into the Pale of Settlement – from whence they were absorbed by Russia – and were educated by the State. At the time of the 1917 October Revolution, Jews were the Intelligentsia of Russia, sitting in the Cat Bird’s seat together with sundry “others from the underground of the world’s international cities – who stole an Empire.” --Churchill [/paraphrased]

[jasd]

>>To finance his war against Wales in 1276, Edward I of England taxed Jewish moneylenders. When the moneylenders could no longer pay the tax, they were accused of disloyalty.<<

This did Edward even to his own Barons (the privilege of nobility).

>>Already restricted to a limited number of occupations, Edward abolished their "privilege" to lend money, restricted their movements and activities and forced Jews to wear a yellow patch. The heads of Jewish households were then arrested with over 300 being taken to the Tower of London and executed. Others were killed in their homes. All Jews were banished from the country in 1290,[67] where it was possible that hundreds were killed or drowned while trying to leave the country.[68] All the money and property of these dispossessed Jews was confiscated. No Jews were known to be in England thereafter until 1655, when Oliver Cromwell reversed the policy."<<

Edward had a mighty issue with the idea that some one or others possessed more than he in assets – in his own kingdom, yet.

>>And here are examples of some of the evil conspiracy theories of the middle ages.....

- Jews use the blood of Christian and Muslim children to make their Passover matzo. This terrible lie is still being repeated today in the Muslim world and other places.

- That Jews cause plagus by poisoning food, wells and streams. Because of this they were rounded up and tortured and killed all across europe. This evil conpiracy theory led to the entire eradication of many Jewish communities across europe in the mid 14th century.

And there are many more stories. And Jews were killed in mass and driven out of entire countries by these false tales.

These false ideas became part of Christian culture. And were very prevelant still in the 19th century in the Christian world. This includes both the US and Europe. And it is out of this anti-semetic 19th culture the modern banker conspiracy theories come from. This seems to be when they started to expand and have a more world wide context to the theories.<<

Well, there is nothing complimentary one might say of evil; however, one might mitigate the charges by the fact that it was during insufferable times, persecutions, and expulsions, that many Talmuds were confiscated and translated. All contributing to no good for the persecuted, for there were outrageous things found within the confiscated Talmuds.

>>And it is out of this anti-semetic 19th culture the modern banker conspiracy theories come from<<

Non, non, dear fellow. The complaints have been lodged since Before Christ, and even those of great influence in the mighty Roman Empire noted the extent which Jews controlled by monopoly the trades, the lending, and the precious metals. I remind...:

The First century Seneca who wrote of the then Jews, “...have gained such strength that they have now been received in all lands. The conquered have given laws to the conquerors.” [/ed.jasd]

Granted, that this was before the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem; however, the takeaway is: though conquered, they wielded unnatural influence.

The Jew, bless their everlovin’ peapickin’ hearts, are nothing if not resilient. My wife is largely Jewish, as is my ex, and is my son in part by marriage to my ex, as is my most dear friend of near fifty years part Jewish, as is the ‘Capo’ (as it were) of my greater family... etc. No formidable antipathy against Jews found here. Neither is there found the tendency to avert one’s eyes from the unpleasant found here.

There are Jews and there are Jews. There are those who do good and there are those who do evil. It is like this in and with every facet of every society.

The Jews of my family recognize evil as well as good – and note it.

[jasd]

>>Now these racist anti-semetic worlds views were very very popular at the turn of the last century. Henry Ford reprinted the fraudulent The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion for example.<<

Okay, so the ‘Protocols’ may or may not be a forgery; the question obtains, have the ‘Elders of Zion’ used the protocols for their furtherance and benefit?

Ford also printed his own thinking re the ‘International Jew’. Have you read the Dearborn letters? Any facts to be found therein?—or are they entirely fraudulent?

>>The The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion were also used by the Nazi's and studied as fact. And by other anti-semetic/racists around the world.<<

I posed a question in the immediate above and remind: there are Semites and there are Semites who are also anti-Semitic.

It is fraudulent to charge others of being anti-Semitic when practicing anti-Semitism oneself, which today’s Jews do re Palestinians and other Semites.

>>And even more interesting is this The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion is one of the key things that get us to the modern world wide conspiracy theories.<<

Most ‘conspiracists’ have never heard of the ‘Protocols’.

>>The main difference today is the theories have tried and play down the racist origins. Except for when it is used by the clearly racist groups around the world. But the origins are all rooted in these old anti-semetic racist ideas. They have just been expanded on and a more politicaly correct face added to them.<<

Oh, conspiracy is conspiracy no matter the guise. Jewish and/or Zionist conspiracy is only a part of the whole; much of which has absolutely nothing to do with racism. Well, the Mormons believe that they and the Jews will rule earth together. :-(

>>So any talk about modern conspiracy theories has to include their racist, anti-semetic and hate filled origins.<<

Mebbe, for those whose raison d’être is anti-Semitism – a former cottage industry metastasized.

[Patrick Lawrence]

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Indeed, as needed and for opportunity. Even popes who officially upheld and enforced laws against usury – condoned and supported Jews who practiced usury – for reason, we were bequeathed Luther’s ‘Reformation’.

Good?—or bad?

Are you saying because the Pope amoung all the nations of europe encouraged jews to become bankers we got the reformation?

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Yes, stipulated. In the movie Pawnbroker, Steiger explains the fact, “By necessity, we survived by buying a piece of cloth for a penny, cutting it in two pieces and selling each for a penny. And so on... “

However, there were many countries and many times when the Jews were, in fact, among the privileged (Moorish Europe for instance). And times when they either suffered separately or together with the general populace, example: the 100 years war, etc.

It has been so with all peoples of the world. It is not a singularity peculiar to the Jews. However, it is most common amongst peoples with neither govt nor land of their own.

One would think that that fact would be uppermost on the consciences of those who evicted others from their lands.

The Jews suffered more and for in a special way. They were seen as the race that killed Christ and were cursed. This is not something they share with any other people. And it is why the suffered more in Christian lands. Also related to this is the roots of the sneaky gready Jews based conspiracies. They tended to think of any Jew as like the evil priests that plotted against Christ.

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Indeed, as well for everyone – for reason the Renaissance was welcomed. The Middle Ages was a time of intense suffering for the general populace, brought about by extreme poverty, disease, wars, natural calamities, etc. Such times do not bode well for the 'stranger within the gates'.

But for Jews it was worse as mentioned above. We can not just play it off as well it was bad for every one.

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Yes, mostly true, but did not the European Jew contribute in some way, however small, to the antipathy encountered?—let’s say, by denigrating (however cryptic the terminology) the mother of Jesus Christ as a whoops! who cast a ba...rd child of a Roman soldier?—or by designating the goyim cattle? Etc.

One simply cannot put such stuff in one’s holiest book subscribing to it – and not give account to even the lowest/meanest person in the land. (yes, I’ve read the relevant passages in the Soncino)

No this is like blaming black people for the racism against them because they were uneducated when freed from slavery. They had a different view of Christ. This does not excuse in any way the hatred for them.

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That is true everywhere – for everyone; however, Jews were in positions of privilege, as well with the downtrodden – whenever and wherever they were throughout history.

That is true of all peoples.

Just because some Jews had money does not mean they were not still downtrodden. They were still looked down on. They were still excluded from much of society. And it does not do away with the special kind of hatred there was for them.

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Even the First century Cicero complained of fear of the Jews in Rome, as did Seneca who wrote,“...have gained such strength that they have now been received in all lands. The conquered have given laws to the conquerors.” [/ed.jasd]

This was Europe, First century AD forward...

Yes but it did not have the same origins as I am sure you know. The Romans did not like that the Jews did not want to submit. And that they did not take on the Roman Gods. There is a history of antagism betweent the Jews and the Romans. But it is very different from the Jews in the Christian world as killers of Christ with a curse on them. And it is interesting that these quotes are still being used today by white suppremist racist groups to show how evil jews are. For example on the site Stormfront.

This concludes your first post. Will start on next on now.

[Patrick Lawrence]

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>>Even the most wealthy Jewish banker could be killed and robbed for their possessions.<<

As even with Kings and Presidents: Bush Sr had the highest approval rating ever recorded while in office. Rabin came to town asking for monies. Bush Sr asked for a quid pro quo – “You’ll get your monies; however, I want you to sit down with the Palestinians to talk Peace.” Oh, the shame! Rabin acceded – whereupon the Jewish Community in America – Bunds, Soviets, Cells – organized charter bus convoys from all assorted towns, villlages, cities, and landscapes throughout America to ‘go to the Capitol’ and give the upstart Bush Sr what for. The convoys converged upon the Capitol. Bush Sr was MSMed (much as Palin would later be MSMed) – and became for all intents and purposes – a lame duck facing the end of his one-term as POTUS.

I watched the convoys...

The Jews are the only racial group who is organized for political domination of America. Why?

Conspiracy?—or Political Action? Define your terms.

I included my comment you replied so since well you did not reply to it. Not only that your statement that they are the only racial group organized for political action is complete nonsense. A guick example of this is La Raza meaning race. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Raza And who has direct ties to the white house etc.

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Oh!—how dreadful and oh! how they must have complained – for who in their right mind would want to be a 'forced participant' in a monopoly? Perhaps, it is that experience which provided the notion of greater monopolies – the monopoly of State Communism. Yes, I know the boast.

What is evil is they were pushed into it and then demonized for it. That is clearly an evil thing to do.

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Kinda like the left demonizes the wealthy in America? That said, there is nothing good that can be said of envy, the manipulation of another man’s person, or the confiscation of his goods.

It would be the same IF the left had forced wealthy into those professions. And then turned around and demonized them for being in them.

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Oh, beg pardon. Conspiracy theories were born when and where the smoke of sufficient suspicions and facts first trailed their :: wisps. This said, it applies to all peoples – from families to States.

Sorry you can trace the roots of these theories back there anti jewish roots.

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Beg pardon, I state not even the half of it.

I think in your world view that is probably correct

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As was everyone who served at the wishes of the King. Sez so in the Bible. That said, some of the Medieval Jews loaned at usury even to Popes – who, in turn, crowned and deposed – Kings.

And Jews bankers were also taken down and killed and tortured by said popes and kings. They were a tool not the tool maker.

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They, in turn, accepted the expelled Jews from England; however, to be fair, they in turn expelled them into the Germanic lands, which State, in turn shuttled them into the Pale of Settlement – from whence they were absorbed by Russia – and were educated by the State. At the time of the 1917 October Revolution, Jews were the Intelligentsia of Russia, sitting in the Cat Bird’s seat together with sundry “others from the underground of the world’s international cities – who stole an Empire.” --Churchill [/paraphrased]

It would be handier if you would give an exact source for your quote. As in where did he say this. I think you are talking about an article he did for a paper early on but that was never published. Matter of fact he refused the request to let it be published. You can see the original quote here at JewWatch.com http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-USSR-historians.html . But this proves my point. It is part of the world of anti Jewish writing of the time. Churchhill along with Henry Ford and others were deeply anit Jewish. They believed the protocols of the elders of zion etc were real. Remember this was a time when the US forces were segregated. Where a fascist priest was on American radio reaching 30 million people. And his views seem to have been complex and changed over time. That is he rejected these anti Jewish ideas. This article is from 1937 but when they asked to publish it in 1940 they were told not to. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/11/world/europe/11iht-winston.4873300.html And you can see over time he views changed. And this should not surpise any one. Remember in the 1920s in the US the KKK claimed to have a membership of about 4–5 million men. We forget just how popular and powerful the clan was in the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan And Europe had the same kind of problems. And this did not come out of the blue. It came from a history of anti Jewish ideas in the Christian world.

Next post coming.....

[Patrick Lawrence]

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This did Edward even to his own Barons (the privilege of nobility).

Yes proving my point that the Jews were not in control.

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Edward had a mighty issue with the idea that some one or others possessed more than he in assets – in his own kingdom, yet.

Sure so it is OK then to round up and kill jews and make them ware a yellow patch because they had to much money? Also as I am sure you know the problem is the Kings finances at the time was the fuedal system not Jewish bankers. The system had inherent weaknesses when it came to raising money. So kings tended to be always in search of money.

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Well, there is nothing complimentary one might say of evil; however, one might mitigate the charges by the fact that it was during insufferable times, persecutions, and expulsions, that many Talmuds were confiscated and translated. All contributing to no good for the persecuted, for there were outrageous things found within the confiscated Talmuds.

Sorry I do not think it mitigates it at all. Not to mention many of the ruotes used against the Jews were fake. Here is an 1892 example that was mainly from earlier sources. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Talmud_Unmasked

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Non, non, dear fellow. The complaints have been lodged since Before Christ, and even those of great influence in the mighty Roman Empire noted the extent which Jews controlled by monopoly the trades, the lending, and the precious metals. I remind...:

The First century Seneca who wrote of the then Jews, “...have gained such strength that they have now been received in all lands. The conquered have given laws to the conquerors.” [/ed.jasd]

Granted, that this was before the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem; however, the takeaway is: though conquered, they wielded unnatural influence.

The Jew, bless their everlovin’ peapickin’ hearts, are nothing if not resilient. My wife is largely Jewish, as is my ex, and is my son in part by marriage to my ex, as is my most dear friend of near fifty years part Jewish, as is the ‘Capo’ (as it were) of my greater family... etc. No formidable antipathy against Jews found here. Neither is there found the tendency to avert one’s eyes from the unpleasant found here.

There are Jews and there are Jews. There are those who do good and there are those who do evil. It is like this in and with every facet of every society.

The Jews of my family recognize evil as well as good – and note it.

This is rather sad. You say basicly there have always been evil Jewish bankers. BUT BUT some of my best friends are Jews.

Moving on to next message.